New elite 5 star

[dss]

Concerning depreciation, it's hard to say but I just purchased WPORV with my eyes wide open that I need to brace myself for it to drop anywhere from 25-35% if I ever tried to resell it (which I have no plans to). Even with the wonderful location, it's still a voluntary resort and that make a huge difference on the resale market. Most all timeshares are a depreciating asset, that is just a fact. The most successful launch that most of us are familiar with is WKORV and that is a mandatory resort that sold out YEARS ahead of schedule. Given it's location, SVN participation, and great overall reviews, it still sells for roughly 65% of original pricing on the resale market. I look at it much like buying a nice car. The minute you drive it off the lot, it's lost some value but hopefully you bought something that gives you enjoyment and you can enjoy the ride. It always comes back to the number one rule of buy where where want to go.

As for the SPG Platinum. I have been a Plat for many years now (the hard way!) and I have found the benefits diluted these days. I just spent three nights this week various SPG properties and only got one upgrade. And even that one I had to almost argue for as they tried to charge me $50 for it (clueless check in agent). I think there are a lot more Plats than there used to be and I would not bank on upgrade availability as part of the financial equation in reaching 5*. It's certainly a huge perk but suites are far from a sure thing, especially in business travel hubs like NYC and LA. Even the small Westin Portland which I frequent often and used to always give me suites, told me that they cannot keep up with the demand anymore.

 

[jerseygirl]

I'm Hyatt Platinum and Continental Gold and finding the same thing -- far fewer upgrades than in the past. I enjoy them when I get them, but no longer expect them. I guess you could say I'm "shocked and awed" when they happen (or whatever corny phrase Starwood was using after the big uproar last year!).

 

[SDKath]

As for the SPG Platinum. I have been a Plat for many years now (the hard way!) and I have found the benefits diluted these days. I just spent three nights this week various SPG properties and only got one upgrade. And even that one I had to almost argue for as they tried to charge me $50 for it (clueless check in agent). I think there are a lot more Plats than there used to be and I would not bank on upgrade availability as part of the financial equation in reaching 5*. It's certainly a huge perk but suites are far from a sure thing, especially in business travel hubs like NYC and LA. Even the small Westin Portland which I frequent often and used to always give me suites, told me that they cannot keep up with the demand anymore.

Oh no! That's a bummer to hear. I am aspiring for PFL but by the time I make it, there may be no upgrades left. Sigh.

 

[tonyh]

to the post above. how much in reality do you think i could have spent to get 5*. By all calculations, it seems as though it would have still cost me at least 130k.

I think you can get to 5* for about $100k (in fact one TUGger claimed to have done it for less than $90k) if you had found TUG before your first developer purchase AND if you don't care where the properties are located. However, if you only want to buy properties at more desirable locations (and therefore places you're more likely to go), the number will increase to $120-130k. Most of us here on this board bought from developers before we found TUG and paid or will have to pay an additional $10-40k to reach 5*.

also, the argument above re: depreciating assets and your alluding to it as well point out that perhaps all TS are a waste of money. after all why put money into a depreciating asset.
...
also, there are no resales i'm seeing on the internet for princeville or cancun. also, you have to ask yourself how in the hell can property at the princeville resort depreciate when you have one of the world's best golf courses and a premier hotel property right next door.

Timeshares in general do depreciate if history is any guide, but the reasons I think they depreciate are because a) developers overcharged and we overpaid for them; b) all the overhead associated with timeshares; c) there're too many of them in many locations; and d) poor quality of many older timeshares. Princeville may be an exception (at least I hope because I bought there too), but I'm not sure about Cancun (I'm struggling with this myself to figure out which one to buy to get to 5*).

 

[SDKath]

Here is a good 5* plan:

148,100 WMH or SDO resale Platinum 2BR ($10,000 or less) x 2, requalified
148,100 Developer purchase $35,000 (any over $20,000 would work) x 2

Basically, find the least expensive developer priced units that are over $20,000 each (so you can requal WMH/SDO).

That takes you to 5* with about $90,000 and nice properties to boot!

Kath

 

[DeniseM]

Also, there are no resales i'm seeing on the internet for princeville or cancun.

Not trying to discourage you, but in the interest of sharing correct info. in this forum, I just looked one place and found some:

Redweek - WPORV
Price Week Use Ownership Bedrooms
$24,999 Floating Odd Years Deeded 2
$35,000 Floating Even Years Deeded 2
$38,500 50 Annual Deeded 2

Redweek - Lagunamar
$15,800 Floating Odd Years Deeded 2

also, you have to ask yourself how in the hell can property at the princeville resort depreciate when you have one of the world's best golf courses and a premier hotel property right next door.

This is one of Starwood's little white lies. The hotel is actually 2.5 miles away and timeshare owners have the same access to the hotel as the public. So Starwood's promotion of this as one of the perks of ownership at WPORV is a joke.

 

[tomandrobin]

I think you can get to 5* for about $100k (in fact one TUGger claimed to have done it for less than $90k) if you had found TUG before your first developer purchase AND if you don't care where the properties are located. However, if you only want to buy properties at more desirable locations (and therefore places you're more likely to go), the number will increase to $120-130k. Most of us here on this board bought from developers before we found TUG and paid or will have to pay an additional $10-40k to reach 5*.

Sure you can bargain shop, but are they places one would go to every year. Also, if it was about staroptions, its not easy getting the rooms or location or resort at the 8 month mark. I think the $120-$130 thousand is realistic costs.

Timeshares in general do depreciate if history is any guide, but the reasons I think they depreciate are because a) developers overcharged and we overpaid for them; b) all the overhead associated with timeshares; c) there're too many of them in many locations; and d) poor quality of many older timeshares. Princeville may be an exception (at least I hope because I bought there too), but I'm not sure about Cancun (I'm struggling with this myself to figure out which one to buy to get to 5*).

Disney is one of the few so far that have appreciated over time. I think intitially Princeville will lose 30-40% but in over time will do ok. Cancun is tough to gauge. There are alot of cheap timeshares there now. I guess it will depend on how Starwood runs the resort.Look at the Royal resorts, they jave done a great job in Mexico.

 

[tomandrobin]

Here is a good 5* plan:

148,100 WMH or SDO resale Platinum 2BR ($10,000 or less) x 2, requalified
148,100 Developer purchase $35,000 (any over $20,000 would work) x 2

Basically, find the least expensive developer priced units that are over $20,000 each (so you can requal WMH/SDO).

That takes you to 5* with about $90,000 and nice properties to boot!

Kath

Its really hard to find WMH Plat for $10,000. And your two developer weeks would have to worth 148,100 staroptions....Cancun, Hawaii, St John, Harborside. Can any of them be bought for $35,000 per week?

But for the money one would spend, I do agree with the OP and buying at least half of the units at resorts that I would regularly stay.

 

[pointsjunkie]

when i have spoken to my sales person he said that all the resorts that will be opening will be more in the $50-60,000 range for a 2 br l/o plat woth 148100. seems high to me. that's why we didn't wait for aruba to open to get to 5*. i just did not think it was worth the extra $20-30k it would have cost me to get to 5*. i spent enough. and i will just call at 8 months out to go to aruba.

 

[SDKath]

Its really hard to find WMH Plat for $10,000. And your two developer weeks would have to worth 148,100 staroptions....Cancun, Hawaii, St John, Harborside. Can any of them be bought for $35,000 per week?

I had 3 sellers who were willing to sell WMH for $10,000 including a recent eBay auction for that amount before we went into escrow. You just have to look past the listed prices at Redweek and other sites. Those prices are unrealistically high from poor souls who think they can command prices similar to what they paid to the developer years ago. I saw a WMH listed at $28,000 for a 2BR platinum! Nice try.

I believe the new Palm Desert is selling for $35,000 for a Platinum 2BR LO. Granted it's no Kaanapali or Cancun. But it's doable.

Katherine

 

[DavidnRobin]

This is one of Starwood's little white lies. The hotel is actually 2.5 miles away and timeshare owners have the same access to the hotel as the public. So Starwood's promotion of this as one of the perks of ownership at WPORV is a joke.

I realize that you are not a WPORV fan (because it is north Kauai and not OF). Yes, the St Regis will not be right next door (I knew it never was - it was never sold to me that way - nor do I want it to be) - but the resort is sandwiched between 2 world-class 18 hole golf courses (hugh amount of acreage) - plus the resort is on a large lot itself with only 179 units - 2-3 story buildings (compare that to WKORV's units and size) and WPORV lays at the end of a Wylie road and butts up against cliffs overlooking the ocean and mountains. The Princeville resort is hugh - of course it will be a short drive/shuttle to the St Regis (or the clubhouses), but I fail to understand why this is a big deal?

The only thing we can't use at the St Regis is the Pool - I don't care about this - we will have a few of our own that they can't use. Also, I plan to rent out the studio for the MFs to those St Regis type of people that want a condo/villa (over a hotel room) and a bit of solitude that is right next door to the golf course that many came to play anyway - and the St Regis is not.

We bought sight-unseen, but I am 3 for 3 so far...

I have always said I expect as much as a $10K drop (40%) - I really don't think it will drop this much, but a possibility. While our incentives were not worth $10K - more like $5K - I do not see that as a big issue.

Check out the resort location on Google Earth (not Google Maps), and compare to it's overall location within the region myself... personally I can't wait.

 

[DeniseM]

Hi David - actually I am not against WPORV. North Kauai is not my favorite part of the island, and I really love staying OF, but I'm sure it's going to be a lovely resort and I want to tour it when we are there this summer.

I was just trying to clarify some misinformation that I am sure the OP heard from a timeshare salesman - that's all.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Hi David - actually I am not against WPORV. North Kauai is not my favorite part of the island, and I really love staying OF, but I'm sure it's going to be a lovely resort and I want to tour it when we are there this summer.

I was just trying to clarify some misinformation that I am sure the OP heard from a timeshare salesman - that's all.

Not a problem - no one should believe anything from a salesperson - it is misinfo to make it sound as if they are physically connected (and why research is so important)
good old grandmama pulled thru though...

btw, it's 2 miles - about 0.4 mi down Wylie Rd - right on Ka Haku Rd for about 1.6 miles. w/ Secret beach and Queens Bath along the way

 

[myip]

to the post above. how much in reality do you think i could have spent to get 5*. By all calculations, it seems as though it would have still cost me at least 130k.

That doesn't include what the 750k points mean in dollar value. So all in all i'm thinking i probably overpaid by about 30k.

Don't know how you get overpaid by 30K. Seems to me is 60K.
2 unit from developers - 40K each 80K
2 units from resale - 10K each $20K
You get half of the starpoints 375K. Not sure how much is that worth.... I just put a value of $10K.

 

[LisaRex]

Is this actually true? I thought all the SVO properties, at least in the US, were freehold. Are some of them actually under a ground lease?

I actually did a lot of research before buying.


"Often, people confuse fractional ownership with timeshares. Both fractional ownership and timeshare situations are common with vacation and resort-type properties. With a timeshare, however, you would purchase a specific amount of time to spend at the property, such as 3 weeks out of every year. You would not actually own any portion of the property. With fractional ownership, you would actually own the portion of the property you purchase."

http://www.ournewdenverhome.com/Fractional_Ownership/page_1979711.html

"Q: What do Timeshare owners really own?
A: When you own timeshare, you own future holidays. You do not, normally, own the property but the right of use for a specific number of years (say 30 years), or in perpetuity"

http://www.otr.bz/www/faq.php

"Occasionally, leasehold deeds are offered in perpetuity however many do not convey ownership of the land but merely the apartment or 'unit' of accommodation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-share

 

[tonyh]

I had 3 sellers who were willing to sell WMH for $10,000 including a recent eBay auction for that amount before we went into escrow. You just have to look past the listed prices at Redweek and other sites. Those prices are unrealistically high from poor souls who think they can command prices similar to what they paid to the developer years ago. I saw a WMH listed at $28,000 for a 2BR platinum! Nice try.

I believe the new Palm Desert is selling for $35,000 for a Platinum 2BR LO. Granted it's no Kaanapali or Cancun. But it's doable.

I agree one can get WMH for $10k or less. As a matter of fact, I recently turned down an offer of $9.5k. However, Starwood is selling WDW for $38.9k (not $35k).

We all overpay to reach 5* because we have to buy some units from developers. By my calculation, the amount we overpay is $50-60k, compared to buying all resales. Is 5* worth it? It depends. It depends on the frequency and the type of travel you do. Besides SPG platinum, other benefits include: a) the ability to combine StarOptions; b) the ability to convert to StarPoints as late as Oct 31; c) 10% bonus StarPoints upon conversion; d) ability to waitlist while keeping another reservation; and e) potential for villa upgrade ahead of everyone else. All these benefits worth something, but are not easy to quantify. There's also a downside to owning all these weeks. We implicitly give up some vacation options and flexibility (unless we're willing to "write down" the value of these weeks). For example, my favorite resort in Maui is the Four Seasons in Wailea, but most likely I will stay at one of the Westin resorts in Kaanapali next time I go to Maui because the additional cost differential (to stay at the Four Seasons) is just too high to justify. Even when I travel to places where there's no SVO resort, I'd more likely choose the St. Regis over the Four Seasons, the Mandarin Orientals, the Peninsulas or the Ritz Carltons, even though I think St. Regis is a notch below the others in terms of quality and service. Yes, we can rent out our weeks and book something else, but there's a huge "bid-offer" spread: we don't get in rent anywhere close to what Starwood charges on the other side.

 

[stevens397]

As a Starwood Platinum, I can vouch that I have had the most amazing wuite upgrades in Europe - truly living "lifestyes of the rich and famous!" But you do need to appreciate that it's a crapshoot. There will be times you don't get them.

Each vacation you have to decide if you want or need a suite. If you feel you need it for that vacation, you might choose to use extra points to guarantee it - and you don't have to be Platinum to do that.

What I do is check our the hotels prior to making the reservation. There are numerous European hotels where even Junior Suites are two separate rooms rather than one larger one. And they are usually available for a very slight point value. For example, we stayed at the Prince des Galles in Paris and paid 14,500 per night for the Junior Suite rather than 12,000 for the standard room. In the end, we got a magnificent full suite but the important part is that we would have been comfortable and happy without it.

It's a game and you need to take the time to learn how to lay!

 

[davidahn]

$190K Not Bad

Zinupe,

You're paying less than I'm going to pay for 5*/Platinum, and I'm doing 2 resales + 2 developer weeks! I'm in the process of picking up 2 WKORV resale EY OF-Deluxe's at about $55K each ($105K each from developer), and 2 WPORVs developer EY 2-BR LO's at $52K each, for a total of $214K (would have been $314K all from developer). I'm only being offered 80K SP's per developer week, and I'm trying to use an Explorer Package to get 80K more, for a total of 240K points, plus using the Amex SVO card for an additional 105K points, for 345K SP's total. I may try to finagle 100K SP's per week purchased, but that may be tough; that would net 280K points.

But I'm with you, I decided I'm going to buy where I actually want to stay, so I'm willing to pay extra (even at Ka'anapali, I could get OF non-deluxe for $45-50K each, but I like the extra 150 s.f. of space the deluxe offers). With 4 fabulous Hawaii weeks, we can stay up to 8 weeks in HI (using lockouts), or trade for up to 16-32 weeks in other resorts during off-peak times (we usually don't travel during "peak" seasons). We'll probably end up renting a few weeks to recoup our MF's, and use the rest. As far as the SP's, I sure wish I had 750K like you! My wife and I are planning on using points + cash to stretch our points out farther, and hoping to get upgrades on our hotel stays with our platinum SPG; hoping to make them last a few weeks of hotel stays, and maybe get some airfare too, since they offer the 20% bonus.

On a side note, all you TUG cheapskates (kidding, take it easy) with your $90,000 5*/platinum pathways are contributing to the dwindling SPG upgrades; if it required a $200-300K investment, there'd be a lot fewer platinum members. Still, it can't all be attributed to SVO owners, since distributed over 850 properties and 365 nights a year, the odds of 2000 SVO platinum members (assuming this is the "limit" Starwood has set) bumping into each other at the same properties is slim except during peak times. The exact number of SVO-earned and hotel-earned platinum members is unknown, AFAIK, but it must be growing, as Westin continues to build more resorts. I continue to be hopeful that when I'm platinum (in 1-2 months after resales completed and requalified by developer units), I'll travel to destinations during the right seasons to get upgraded.

David

 

[SDKath]

Zinupe,

You're paying less than I'm going to pay for 5*/Platinum, and I'm doing 2 resales + 2 developer weeks! I'm in the process of picking up 2 WKORV resale EY OF-Deluxe's at about $55K each ($105K each from developer), and 2 WPORVs developer EY 2-BR LO's at $52K each, for a total of $214K (would have been $314K all from developer). I'm only being offered 80K SP's per developer week, and I'm trying to use an Explorer Package to get 80K more, for a total of 240K points, plus using the Amex SVO card for an additional 105K points, for 345K SP's total. I may try to finagle 100K SP's per week purchased, but that may be tough; that would net 280K points.

But I'm with you, I decided I'm going to buy where I actually want to stay, so I'm willing to pay extra (even at Ka'anapali, I could get OF non-deluxe for $45-50K each, but I like the extra 150 s.f. of space the deluxe offers). With 4 fabulous Hawaii weeks, we can stay up to 8 weeks in HI (using lockouts), or trade for up to 16-32 weeks in other resorts during off-peak times (we usually don't travel during "peak" seasons). We'll probably end up renting a few weeks to recoup our MF's, and use the rest. As far as the SP's, I sure wish I had 750K like you! My wife and I are planning on using points + cash to stretch our points out farther, and hoping to get upgrades on our hotel stays with our platinum SPG; hoping to make them last a few weeks of hotel stays, and maybe get some airfare too, since they offer the 20% bonus.

On a side note, all you TUG cheapskates (kidding, take it easy) with your $90,000 5*/platinum pathways are contributing to the dwindling SPG upgrades; if it required a $200-300K investment, there'd be a lot fewer platinum members. Still, it can't all be attributed to SVO owners, since distributed over 850 properties and 365 nights a year, the odds of 2000 SVO platinum members (assuming this is the "limit" Starwood has set) bumping into each other at the same properties is slim except during peak times. The exact number of SVO-earned and hotel-earned platinum members is unknown, AFAIK, but it must be growing, as Westin continues to build more resorts. I continue to be hopeful that when I'm platinum (in 1-2 months after resales completed and requalified by developer units), I'll travel to destinations during the right seasons to get upgraded.

David

One suggestion David -- WPORV is now allowing you to choose the unit you buy if you are willing to pay an additional 10-15% (I can't remember). Since you are planning on purchasing to stay there each year, I would consider securing a nice building in the front (perhaps in a corner). Kind of like the idea of an OF at WKORV.

Then again, if you don't care what building you will be in and don't want to pay the extra, why not consider buying at the new Riverfront from Starwood. Then you "diversify" your investment and WPORV should be a relatively easy trade in. MF will be less and renting out ski weeks is actually easier than renting out HI if you have the right week.

Just an alternate approach -- Katherine

 

[davidahn]

One suggestion David -- WPORV is now allowing you to choose the unit you buy if you are willing to pay an additional 10-15% (I can't remember). Since you are planning on purchasing to stay there each year, I would consider securing a nice building in the front (perhaps in a corner). Kind of like the idea of an OF at WKORV.

Then again, if you don't care what building you will be in and don't want to pay the extra, why not consider buying at the new Riverfront from Starwood. Then you "diversify" your investment and WPORV should be a relatively easy trade in. MF will be less and renting out ski weeks is actually easier than renting out HI if you have the right week.

Just an alternate approach -- Katherine

Thanks for the suggestion, Katherine. I JUST talked to a salesperson at WKORV who told me there were no view rooms, that the view was "all the same." She said there was only ONE class of interval. Are you sure about that? I'll check with her. BTW, I'm not very interested in staying at WPORV very often, just once to check it out, then every few years. I'm buying it for the 148.1K SO's and easy rentability for the least money from the developer (to requal resale WKORVs).

David

 

[SDKath]

At WPORV everything is considered "island view". However, I would think IV 5 buildings back facing another building is substantially less value than front building in the corner and close to the cliff/ocean.

WKORV definitely has the view categories (like OF).... When you trade into II, you get no credit for your view though. But I would think you'd never trade your HI properties with II because you'll never be able to recoup their "value". Direct trade with an owner outside II will get you to Atlantis and anywhere else you want to go.

One thing to consider -- rentals aren't a given unless you secure a week 52 or equally high demand week. Otherwise, there are many, many for both WKORV and WPORV available (see redweek.com for current rates), and you may not get your MF back, let alone trying to recoup the $$ spent on the purchase. The SOs can be had cheaper buying something on the mainland with less MF.

Just keep your options open before you committ so much $$! Only saying this because we went through the same thought process and purchases before we "saw the light" and changed our mind (before it was too late, thank goodness).

Katherine

 

[DeniseM]

Thanks for the suggestion, Katherine. I JUST talked to a salesperson at WKORV who told me there were no view rooms, that the view was "all the same." She said there was only ONE class of interval. Are you sure about that? I'll check with her. BTW, I'm not very interested in staying at WPORV very often, just once to check it out, then every few years. I'm buying it for the 148.1K SO's and easy rentability for the least money from the developer (to requal resale WKORVs).

David

All units are "deeded" island view, but in reality some units are closer to the cliff than others and therefore will have a better view. Kath was asking if you are going to buy a fixed unit (you get the same unit every time) to guarantee the best view. If you aren't going to use it on a regular basis though, it probably isn't worth the premium you would pay.

 

[DavidnRobin]

I recall for WPORV it was 10% for a fixed week, and then an additional 10% for a fixed unit.

I managed with little effort (2x so far) to rent out our WKORV OF studio for about the MFs.

Is this worth the premium? probably not - but certainly easier to rent than IV/OV - and that is worth something (although still not financially worth the premium). For WPORV - watch out here - while you could buy a top floor corner unit closest to the ocean and have it somehow be more valuable (i say this because these comments are being stated sight-unseen) - since the view is catagorically the same (IV) - it will be difficult to get this concept across in a rental ad like you can if it were catagorized as OF like with the WKORV/N resorts. Is this worth the 20% additional premium...?

 

[dss]

I have also had excellent success renting out my WKORV Studio when necessary. That was one of the reasons I felt comfortable taking the plunge instead of going with OV.

As for WPORV and fixing a unit/week. I have been led to understand you can fix a week for 10% and then fix your unit for an additional 10% but you cannot just fix a unit without attaching that to a specific week. I may have received incorrect information which would be great as I would be interested in fixing a unit on a floating basis if that is possible.

If you do need to fix a week in order to fix a unit, to me that negates any rental value upside as you would have to get very lucky on timing.

 

[davidahn]

Agreed

I have also had excellent success renting out my WKORV Studio when necessary. That was one of the reasons I felt comfortable taking the plunge instead of going with OV.

As for WPORV and fixing a unit/week. I have been led to understand you can fix a week for 10% and then fix your unit for an additional 10% but you cannot just fix a unit without attaching that to a specific week. I may have received incorrect information which would be great as I would be interested in fixing a unit on a floating basis if that is possible.

If you do need to fix a week in order to fix a unit, to me that negates any rental value upside as you would have to get very lucky on timing.

I agree, if you're stuck with a fixed week, NOT worth it. It's probably better just to book early to get the better views.