New "deal" from developer orlando svo

[arlene22]

Talk about inflation!

 

[Gypsie]

Quote of Anonymous Sales Agent at SVO

I called my sales rep to ask about the new options at Sheraton Vistana and here was her written response:

"Sheraton Vistana Resort (Fountains, Fountains II, and Vistana Beach Club) have all either completed major refurbishments of their villa interiors or will be completed this year. These (3) associations have been offered membership into Starwood Vacation Network. Owners may enroll at no cost until October 1, 2008. Thereafter, the initiation fee of $599. will apply. During the initial enrollment period, resale owners will also be invited to join SVN. HOWEVER, the deed must have been RECORDED PRIOR to March 31, 2008. After October 1, the normal business rules for resale owners will apply.

Membership will be effective for 2009, and they will be voluntary resorts."

 

[Courts]

We bought now because the first offering of these units was on Thursday, and by Friday, the price on most had gone up $4,000, from $12,500 to $16,500. So with the realization that we have 10 days to rescind, it seemed like a better move to buy now, and review documentation on April 1st to confirm the developers claims.

152,000 SO per year, plus 132,000 SP (one time offer), Gold Status (SPG) and option to convert SO to SP didn't sound too bad.

Maintenance fees are $623 each. ($1,246 total per year).

I feel very ripped-off with my Maintenance fees of $ 786.19 plus Tax $ 45.37 for a total of $ 831.56 for my two bed Courts unit. Not even a L/O.
.

 

[SDKath]

Did you already have to pay a special assessment to get upgrades to the unit, Courts? If so, then you will probably get your invite to SVN shortly too! Correct me if this is wrong but I think all SVR is 2BR (non-LO) except Lakes and Cascades.

Katherine

 

[nodge]

I called my sales rep to ask about the new options at Sheraton Vistana and here was her written response:

"Sheraton Vistana Resort (Fountains, Fountains II, and Vistana Beach Club) have all either completed major refurbishments of their villa interiors or will be completed this year. These (3) associations have been offered membership into Starwood Vacation Network. Owners may enroll at no cost until October 1, 2008. Thereafter, the initiation fee of $599. will apply. During the initial enrollment period, resale owners will also be invited to join SVN. HOWEVER, the deed must have been RECORDED PRIOR to March 31, 2008. After October 1, the normal business rules for resale owners will apply.

Membership will be effective for 2009, and they will be voluntary resorts."

Great data point! If that came from someone representing the Fountains II Board I would tend to believe it more than having come from an SVN salesperson. At a minimum, it probably represents SVN's hope or goal here.

You'll notice that the writing doesn't say that these owners will be offered membership in SVN BECAUSE OF their resorts' recent refurbishments. Only that 1) these resorts have all undergone refurbishment, and 2) owners of these resorts "have been" offered membership in SVN.

(Legal writing interpretation tip: Whenever someone uses passive voice ("have been offered") instead of active voice (i.e. "SVO offered them . . .." or "Their respective boards offered them . . .") the writer is hiding something. In this case, the salesperson has hidden which of these entities initiated the offer to these owners. It could be that the salesperson is just a lousy writer, but I suspect that this text was reviewed and edited by the SVO powers that be before it was released. In such case, we can assume SVO is intentionally hiding the identity of this entity. SVO has no need to hide the fact that it initiated this deal. Accordingly, we can assume from this chosen passive voice that THE BOARDS initiated the deal. This conclusion conforms to the Fountains II board letter (posted above) provided to owners.)

Regarding these resorts being "voluntary," that would happen when an owner actually signs the SVN membership form presented to them. The language on THAT FORM will include the "voluntary" limitations. It currently isn't in any paperwork of record for these resorts. Until then, these resorts are neither "voluntary" nor "mandatory."

Before signing anything like that (and thereby making them indeed “voluntary”), I would force the board at each resort to disclose the terms of Starwood's earlier acquisition of each resort relative to obligations to honor any "internal vacation exchange clubs" subsequently developed by Starwood. (Hey board members reading this, remember even though you are all cronies of SVO, you still have a fiduciary duty to represent the best interests of your respective resorts' owners. This includes answering your owner's reasonable requests for documentation regarding this issue, and interpreting SVO obligations provided in the original acquisition documents in a light most favorable for your owners, NOT SVO!)

If that paperwork says that owners of these resorts will be allowed to join such networks in the future, but (as I suspect) is silent regarding which owners (original, resale prior to a certain date, or all resale) may join, why would each board (remember that fiduciary duty thing folks) go along with SVN's interpretation (only resale owners prior to a certain date)?

Moreover, I guarantee you that that date (March 31, 2008) isn't written anywhere in those original documents. I bet that it was just arbitrarily chosen by our friends at SVO with the hope that it would stick.

With this limited data and SVO's reputation for screwing owners (on resale value at least), I now think it's too risky for existing SVN members to buy a cheap resale Fountains II to see what happens. Moreover, the StarOptions are just too low to justify an existing Fountains/Vistana Beach Club single villa owner joining SVN under this deal.

SVO appears to have proved once again that it is the incandescent light bulb of timeshare management, generating 90% worthless heat when producing only 10% useful light.

-nodge

 

[SDKath]

I am curious if the OP's paperwork had anything to say about March 31st. It has to be in writing. Or else everyone will be on eBay buying up those Fountains resales for $300 right now!!

K

 

[calgarygary]

Great data point! If that came from someone representing the Fountains II Board I would tend to believe it more than having come from an SVN salesperson. At a minimum, it probably represents SVN's hope or goal here.

You'll notice that the writing doesn't say that these owners will be offered membership in SVN BECAUSE OF their resorts' recent refurbishments. Only that 1) these resorts have all undergone refurbishment, and 2) owners of these resorts "have been" offered membership in SVN.

(Legal writing interpretation tip: Whenever someone uses passive voice ("have been offered") instead of active voice (i.e. "SVO offered them . . .." or "Their respective boards offered them . . .") the writer is hiding something. In this case, the salesperson has hidden which of these entities initiated the offer to these owners. It could be that the salesperson is just a lousy writer, but I suspect that this text was reviewed and edited by the SVO powers that be before it was released. In such case, we can assume SVO is intentionally hiding the identity of this entity. SVO has no need to hide the fact that it initiated this deal. Accordingly, we can assume from this chosen passive voice that THE BOARDS initiated the deal. This conclusion conforms to the Fountains II board letter (posted above) provided to owners.)

Regarding these resorts being "voluntary," that would happen when an owner actually signs the SVN membership form presented to them. The language on THAT FORM will include the "voluntary" limitations. It currently isn't in any paperwork of record for these resorts. Until then, these resorts are neither "voluntary" nor "mandatory."

Before signing anything like that (and thereby making them indeed “voluntary”), I would force the board at each resort to disclose the terms of Starwood's earlier acquisition of each resort relative to obligations to honor any "internal vacation exchange clubs" subsequently developed by Starwood. (Hey board members reading this, remember even though you are all cronies of SVO, you still have a fiduciary duty to represent the best interests of your respective resorts' owners. This includes answering your owner's reasonable requests for documentation regarding this issue, and interpreting SVO obligations provided in the original acquisition documents in a light most favorable for your owners, NOT SVO!)

If that paperwork says that owners of these resorts will be allowed to join such networks in the future, but (as I suspect) is silent regarding which owners (original, resale prior to a certain date, or all resale) may join, why would each board (remember that fiduciary duty thing folks) go along with SVN's interpretation (only resale owners prior to a certain date)?

Moreover, I guarantee you that that date (March 31, 2008) isn't written in anywhere in those original documents. I bet that it was just arbitrarily chosen by our friends at SVO with the hope that it would stick.

With this limited data and SVO's reputation for screwing owners (on resale value at least), I now think it's too risky for existing SVN members to buy a cheap resale Fountains II to see what happens. Moreover, the StarOptions are just too low to justify an existing Fountains/Vistana Beach Club single villa owner joining SVN under this deal.

SVO appears to have proved once again that it is the incandescent light bulb of timeshare management, generating 90% worthless heat when producing only 10% useful light.

-nodge

nodge, don't you think that there can be great value in buying 1 or 2 Fountains units resale if you plan to purchase developer in Hawaii, Cancun, etc. SVO has opened the door and I can't imagine that they would shut it on a big buck deal. This would be the cheapest retro out there and you could possibly double the staroptions of a developer purchase for just a few hundred dollars.

 

[nodge]

nodge, don't you think that there can be great value in buying 1 or 2 Fountains units resale if you plan to purchase developer in Hawaii, Cancun, etc. SVO has opened the door and I can't imagine that they would shut it on a big buck deal. This would be the cheapest retro out there and you could possibly double the staroptions of a developer purchase for just a few hundred dollars.

If SVN honors its currently posted 1 requal per 1 developer purchase plan, then paying $40,000 on a developer Hawaii purchase (or $20K on a domestic or Cancun purchase) to requal only 76,000 StarOptions (even if purchased for super cheap) may not be the best use of one's resources. I would think the minimum valuable requal amount would be at least 81,000 StarOptions, which could be had by spending a few hundred dollars more on a resale 2 BR L/O Cascades or PGA purchase, (or finding the mythical large one bedroom true platinum (post-starwood) SDO) or the like.

Of course, if someone were willing to roll the dice on the March 31, 2008 resale Fountains II cut-off date, with the understanding that they would requal it with an already planned developer purchase if SVN refused to extend that date, then go for it.

Make sense?

-nodge

 

[SDKath]

If SVN honors its currently posted 1 requal per 1 developer purchase plan, then paying $40,000 on a developer Hawaii purchase (or $20K on a domestic or Cancun purchase) to requal only 76,000 StarOptions (even if purchased for super cheap) may not be the best use of one's resources. I would think the minimum valuable requal amount would be at least 81,000 StarOptions, which could be had by spending a few hundred dollars more on a resale 2 BR L/O Cascades or PGA purchase, (or finding the mythical large one bedroom true platinum (post-starwood) SDO) or the like.

Of course, if someone were willing to roll the dice on the March 31, 2008 resale Fountains II cut-off date, with the understanding that they would requal it with an already planned developer purchase if SVN refused to extend that date, then go for it.

Make sense?

-nodge

Starwood's current requal rules are >$20,000 spent per requal. So you can't buy a Fountains week from Starwood and requal a unit. You have to buy one unit worth over $20,000 to retro anything no matter how many SOs.

I would not "waste" a retro for anything less than 148,100 SOs. It's just too much money to spend for 81,000 SOs I think. WMH, SMV, SDO true platinum (truly elusive) are good options for 148,100 SOs.

If someone is close to getting 5* already, just one purchase from Fountains might tip them over the 559,000 SO requirement for 5*. That's a nice option.

Katherine

 

[Courts]

Did you already have to pay a special assessment to get upgrades to the unit, Courts? If so, then you will probably get your invite to SVN shortly too! Correct me if this is wrong but I think all SVR is 2BR (non-LO) except Lakes and Cascades.

Katherine

I have inquired about the upgrades I'm hearing about and was told the Courts board are "looking into the possibility" of upgrading, but nothing has been decided.

I only mentioned L/O's because I see no reason for our MF's to be higher than a section being offered SVN.
.

 

[mishpat]

Vistana goes SVN

Sounds too good to be true. 76000 StarOptions for my Fountains. But the catch to me is that most trades I prefer require 82000 Staroptions. I could book only six nights but that must be done 90 days out. And I know I can get the extra 5000 from my upcoming year BUT then I can also only book 90 days out. So the big question is: Is there any way I can get 5000 extra options AND be able to book the regular 8 months out? Final question:Is it true that, in the years I use II for deposit, Starwood picks ANY week to deposit, thus again minimizing the value of the week?

 

[DeniseM]

Since Starwood doesn't sell Staroptions independent of a deeded week, I don't think there is any way to buy that number of Staroptions. However, since Starwood changes the rules all the time, as soon as I post this it could change!

As far as depositing with II, if you are an SVN member, you have to go through Starwood to deposit your week. Some people have had luck with requesting a better week than they are offered, but there are no guarantees.

We have an ongoing thread about the new Vistana Deal that you will find helpful, if you haven't seen it, so I'm moving your post to that thread.

 

[GrayFal]

Depends. If you paid $9950, you got 76,000 SOs and 22,000 SPs. If you paid $12,500, you got 76,000 SOs and 44,000 SPs!

All weeks get the same SOs. Wierd since FL seems to be seasonal (look at Key West, etc).

Price now is $16,500 for 76,000 SOs and 44,000 SPs. Kath

PGA has 'seasons' but Orlando is considered RED weeks 1-52 - or at least that is how Starwood sold the resort.
The Marriotts in Orlando and DVC as well, have 'seasons'

 

[GrayFal]

Since Starwood doesn't sell Staroptions independent of a deeded week, I don't think there is any way to buy that number of Staroptions. However, since Starwood changes the rules all the time, as soon as I post this it could change!

As far as depositing with II, if you are an SVN member, you have to go through Starwood to deposit your week. Some people have had luck with requesting a better week than they are offered, but there are no guarantees.

We have an ongoing thread about the new Vistana Deal that you will find helpful, if you haven't seen it, so I'm moving your post to that thread.

For an educated consumer such as yourself and others on this board - even though SVN will 'pick' your week - you can 'guide' them into making a good choice for you
And if they don't get it right the first time, ask them to switch - but all this info is on other threads, don't want to take away from this HOT topic

 

[EileenSRN]

No more "Mandatory Resorts"?????

OK. I didn't take the time to read more than the first 2 pages, so some of this may have already been posted. I'm at VV on an Internal Exchange. Did the Owner's Update this AM. Here's what the salesman said:
1.Starwood bought out all owners in the Fountains building and is selling them ONLY to current owners in the system. He said they were really only offering them to Elite owners and other owners who go to the update. They expect to sell the Fountains section out quickly. That brings it into the SVN. The 2 bedroom is 76,000.
2.He also said VV is about sold out and by summer there will be no more sales, so they're going to push the new Mexico resorts.
3. Starwood is not going to do any more Sheraton branded resorts. They're focusing on Westin.
4. Las Vegas and Sedona resorts are on the drawing board.
5.. Elite ownership is currently 165,000 Star Options. Going to 400,000 very soon.
6. They have decided to close the resale loophole, and since Jan 1 NO RESALES OF MANDATORY RESORTS ARE IN SVN. He says all those ebay sales touting Staroptions get the news when they do the resort transfer. Anybody know if this is true? I've been putting off buying a resale out west, I sure hope it isn't true.
Eileen

 

[Denise L]

6. They have decided to close the resale loophole, and since Jan 1 NO RESALES OF MANDATORY RESORTS ARE IN SVN. He says all those ebay sales touting Staroptions get the news when they do the resort transfer. Anybody know if this is true? I've been putting off buying a resale out west, I sure hope it isn't true.

Thanks for the update. Interesting info!

I can't imagine how a SVN Mandatory resort can be made un-mandatory by Starwood. The point of the resort being mandatory (in our contract), is that it has to be part of SVN! Your salesperson said since January 1, 2008? That seems highly unlikely and sounds like the salesperson was just trying to discourage any resale purchases. This kind of false rumor could scare people into not buying resale and cause our resale values to plummet even further.

 

[nodge]

OK. I didn't take the time to read more than the first 2 pages, so some of this may have already been posted. I'm at VV on an Internal Exchange. Did the Owner's Update this AM. Here's what the salesman said:
1.Starwood bought out all owners in the Fountains building and is selling them ONLY to current owners in the system. He said they were really only offering them to Elite owners and other owners who go to the update. They expect to sell the Fountains section out quickly. That brings it into the SVN. The 2 bedroom is 76,000.
2.He also said VV is about sold out and by summer there will be no more sales, so they're going to push the new Mexico resorts.
3. Starwood is not going to do any more Sheraton branded resorts. They're focusing on Westin.
4. Las Vegas and Sedona resorts are on the drawing board.
5.. Elite ownership is currently 165,000 Star Options. Going to 400,000 very soon.
6. They have decided to close the resale loophole, and since Jan 1 NO RESALES OF MANDATORY RESORTS ARE IN SVN. He says all those ebay sales touting Staroptions get the news when they do the resort transfer. Anybody know if this is true? I've been putting off buying a resale out west, I sure hope it isn't true.
Eileen

Oh My.

Your salesperson is dead wrong about the stuff I know about (VV is developing an entirely new phase (Called "St. Augustine" that may not have even started sales yet, and it certainly hasn't come anywhere near selling out); the second Kauai property will be branded a Sheraton; non-elite and even current non-owners were offered a handful of default/repo Fountains units (SVN didn’t “buy-back” those entire phases), and “mandatory” resorts purchased resale cannot be excluded from SVN, hence the name “M-A-N-D-A-T-O-R-Y”)). Accordingly, I suspect that the other stuff he told you is also dead wrong.

How can SVO continue to allow such blatantly deceptive sales activity?

Please report his name and what he told you to SVO, AND file a complaint against SVO/him via this link.

If we all start reporting SVO’s bad acts to the folks regulating SVO's behavior, maybe we’ll start to see SVO act better.

Enough is Enough SVO. Have you no shame?

-nodge

 

[SDKath]

Oh my! I totally agree with Nodge. What a crock of ****! I just bought the fountains and I never owned anything with Starwood before. I am not an elite owner or a previous owner. My rep just called me since she knew I was looking to get to an elite level and offered it to me. My friend bought 8 weeks from her to get to 5*. He is not a previous Starwood owner either.

Nodge is right, St Augustine JUST started and you can take your pick of whatever you want there (although it's Vol). The Mandatory phases of SVV are nearly sold out from last I heard.

Mandatory is mandatory. They can't just "change it" if it's in the contracts that SVN points pass on in resale.

And elite is going to 400,000???? WHAT? As if elite benefits currently are worth anything (aside from 5*).

As for it giving up Sheraton, the Sheraton in Poipu is planned and was presented by the Starwood board this January at their annual conference! Nice try.

It's interesting to hear that the sales person thought the Mandatory thing is a "loophole." It's something that was worked into those contracts (at the beginning) and although Starwood has promised not to sell any new Mandatory resorts (everything built from now on will be V per reports), this is not a "loophole" that can be closed. What IS a loophole that easily can be closed is buying a new unit and retroing a V resort. That can end at any time at their discretion.

I don't know what is on the drawing board but what was presented at this same conference to industry insiders was another Mexico location, possibly an add on at Kierland and Poipu. Las Vegas is so unbelievably overbuilt that it would be a waste of their resources to be there. Sedona sounds nice though. I would love to add to the rumor that I heard of Tahoe too. But then again, I aint a sales rep so I won't.

Katherine

 

[Kildahl]

.....I don't know what is on the drawing board but what was presented at this same conference to industry insiders was another Mexico location, possibly an add on at Kierland and Poipu. Las Vegas is so unbelievably overbuilt that it would be a waste of their resources to be there. Sedona sounds nice though. I would love to add to the rumor that I heard of Tahoe too. But then again, I aint a sales rep so I won't.

Katherine

Someone, please refresh my recollection. Is the proposed Monmouth Mountain development a Starwood or Hilton project ? Kildahl

 

[EileenSRN]

What a resource you all (we all) are!!

Thank you for the good news. I will report him. Let you know what I hear. I guess the only honest thing we got out of this morning was the new resort book (A $32 value, according to you know who).
Eileen

 

[nodge]

Thank you for the good news. I will report him. Let you know what I hear. I guess the only honest thing we got out of this morning was the new resort book (A $32 value, according to you know who).
Eileen

If you take the SVN resort book that you already have with you to the update, do you think they'll rip the Aruba brochure out or let you keep it in? (". . . and you won't be needing this!" RRRRRRiiiippppp)

-nodge

 

[GrayFal]

Do you think if you take the SVN resort book that you already have with you to the update, they'll rip the Aruba brochure out or let you keep it in?
-nodge

 

[trader14]

OK. I didn't take the time to read more than the first 2 pages, so some of this may have already been posted. I'm at VV on an Internal Exchange. Did the Owner's Update this AM. Here's what the salesman said:
6. They have decided to close the resale loophole, and since Jan 1 NO RESALES OF MANDATORY RESORTS ARE IN SVN. He says all those ebay sales touting Staroptions get the news when they do the resort transfer. Anybody know if this is true? I've been putting off buying a resale out west, I sure hope it isn't true.
Eileen

I purchased mine on ebay in march 08 and have been in the svn system for a couple weeks and I have 81k staroption points on my account per svn and mystarcentral so that is bunk

 

[Denise P]

Hello,

I am a Starwood owner from the UK. I have been an avid TUG reader for some months but I've been too timid to post anything until now.

I attended an owners update 2 days prior to Eileen and this has prompted my response.

The salesman desperately wanted me to upgrade and told me I only need 159,000 star options to reach elite status (I note that Eileen was told that this was 165,000).

In addition, he offered me 30,000 phantom star options towards my elite status as I own a non-Starwood timeshare. I would be interested to learn if anyone else has been offered this as it seems very unfair on other owners who have to pay full price to reach elite.

I visit Orlando up to 3 times a year which is why SVV is perfect for me but I also visit Las Vegas about once every 3 years so I asked about potential timeshare development there. I was advised that Starwood have considered this in the past but it has been ruled out because land is so expensive that it would not be cost effective. This is yet another contradiction to the information provided 2 days later.

I was not offered a Fountains Unit but I they did try to push Mexico. The man just couldn't understand why I did not want to part with $17,000 to enhance my ownership in spite of my repeatedly telling him that I only really visit Orlando/Las Vegas and that I have a European timeshare which is affiliated with RCI giving me very cheap European bonus vacations. Starwood are also poorly informed about the exchange fees with RCI/II which are much higher for non-US residents.

It is great to finally have a reason to post here! Hopefully, I will have more to contribute in the future!

 

[pointsjunkie]

thanks for your insight, what you were told seems to be more accurate, and welcome to TUG.