Marriott Abound

[CalGalTraveler]

... for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion, of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Starwood Preferred Guest Program.”

The word "External" is really interesting. Have they defined "External" in the legal docs? if we follow this to the letter of the legal terms is II even considered "External" anymore since it is owned by MVC? It clearly supports withdrawals for the "Starwood Preferred Guest program." but "Starwood Preferred Guest Program" is not Abound. Would VSN SO traders also be entitled to such inventory if Abound inventory is withdrawn under that banner if it doesn't qualify as "External."

 

[Eric B]

The word "External" is really interesting. Have they defined "External" in the legal docs? if we follow this to the letter of the legal terms is II even considered "External" anymore since it is owned by MVC? It clearly supports withdrawals for the "Starwood Preferred Guest program." but "Starwood Preferred Guest Program" is not Abound. Would VSN SO traders also be entitled to such inventory if Abound inventory is withdrawn under that banner if it doesn't qualify as "External."

I wouldn't get terribly hung up on what the wording for the VSN Rules is currently as they don't reflect the existence of Abound (and the version quoted didn't used SPG rather than Bonvoy). I expect that the same principles will apply once it is updated, treating Abound (a.k.a., the Marriott Destination Exchange Program) as an external exchange program in addition to II, the current External Exchange Program referred to in the rules.

BTW, there are a few WKORV/N weeks showing up in II cited in the Sightings forum at the 10-month point - the postings document when they are in Vistana and Marriott preference. If I were running things for the bulk banking function for the Network Operator, I would look to historical information on the extent to which those weeks are booked during those preference periods as an indication of demand on the part of Vistana and Marriott owners for those availabilities in order to inform the anticipated demand for the weeks that could be at least partially moved to Abound rather than deposited with II. It's a fairly obvious information source, though would not be a perfect one-for-one as some owners would continue using II either because they aren't eligible to enroll in Abound but have preference in II or other owners that don't elect to convert to Abound points. I would anticipate growing pains for the next couple of years particularly since there is the overlay of post-pandemic travel demand skewing things. Just my thoughts....

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I would be interested as to whether these are VSN club rules which can be changed annually vs. condominium owner legal docs. Would have to pull the resort condo owners docs to be sure. Mandatory rights and recognition of VSN are baked into the owners condo association docs and that is why Vistana could never remove that right. They tried. If these rules are baked there, it is a similar legal position.

re: 10 month. Are those peak season weeks? (i.e. summer and whale season or even July 4, Presidents day?) or are these 10 month shoulder/low? If primarily the latter I would expect some availability in exchanges for owner deposited weeks per the exchange rules.

 

[Eric B]

Under Section 9.3 of the VSN Rules, quoted in post # 164 of this thread, the Network Operator has the power to change the rules from time to time at its own discretion. In practice, it doesn't seem to get done annually; the current version is from 2015, though I believe there have been editorial changes made since then.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Section 9.3 also says, "Except as provided in the Resort Documents, the Network Operator has the power..." The resort documents are where mandatory resale rights and the recognition of VSN reside for WKORV / N. There also may be clauses in those Resort Docs that describe owner priority rights to access deeded home weeks.

 

[timsi]

The word "External" is really interesting. Have they defined "External" in the legal docs? if we follow this to the letter of the legal terms is II even considered "External" anymore since it is owned by MVC? It clearly supports withdrawals for the "Starwood Preferred Guest program." but "Starwood Preferred Guest Program" is not Abound. Would VSN SO traders also be entitled to such inventory if Abound inventory is withdrawn under that banner if it doesn't qualify as "External."

The documents define an external exchange as external to VSN. I think this is why they couldn't kill VSN, it is kept as a reference point.

You are bringing up a good point. Interval is controlled by Marriott. To me however it is still external because it includes a large number of resorts outside their control. Still more murky than at the time they wrote the rule of the bulk deposits. Vistana is obviously internal however, Abound only includes a relatively small number of resorts, all managed by Marriott. They control ,the all the inventory (the buckets for each week, the internal and external deposits), the management, the governing documents, virtually EVERYTHING. To me the spirit of that clause is not respected at all, they will claim they can do whatever they want but it was very limited in scope at the time.

 

[divenski]

...

And why would such a change be fair to owners who pay full price at almost $3000/week compared to many deeded traders who pay half that amount for the same week? Why would anyone be so stupid as to buy a deed at a prime oceanfront resort on Maui or St. John if anyone could arbitrage for lower MF in the desert or Orlando and get the same week and view priority via an exchange?

When using Abound Points, I don't think any one will be getting a cheap "exchange" into a prime week. As someone else noted, and which is also true for MVC Maui weeks, a 2-brdm OF unit can cost close to 10K points for a week. It will take 2-3 weeks of low cost units and their MFs to have that many points.

From this cost perspective, the existing SO system is more unfair to owners of high demand weeks. For MVC and the DC, I think the general consensus is that it shifted power/benefits towards higher end owners and away from lower end traders. But of course, MVC gets their take by being in the middle.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@divenski you and @jabberwocky raise a good point about the points requirements. The reason I don't mind the SO program is because those selections are made after owners have first rights to reserve and owners still keep view priority based on time-stamp. It is a fair system because owners decide what gets deposited into the SO program and each 1 -50 floating owners competes at midnight.

Will Abound offer seasonality for WKORV / N trades in Hawaii? If not, this may push Abound traders to OV and IV lower point options. What happens to unreserved Abound weeks?

One reason for Abound not cherry-picking peak season is that MVC does not make more money by taking those weeks for enrolled users. MVC may approach this cautiously similar to II - we just don't know yet.

 

[Ulrichdl]

But see, Section 4.2.c. of the VSN rules, which reads (emphasis added):



This already allows for some "damage" to the priority of resort owners at 12 months.

Section 9.3 of the VSN rules includes the following reservation of the ability to modify them (emphasis added):



I anticipate that Marriott will need to modify the rules to cite the availability of Abound. I haven't been able to find anything in the individual resort rules that would conflict with these powers of the Network Operator (Marriott). I'm not convinced that the definition previously cited for the Home Reservation Period would do that, so I do believe that they are currently allowed to make reservations to deposit in II during that period and have seen evidence that they do so.

I suppose they could rely on the creation of Network Tiers to differentiate between qualified and unqualified mandatory resale ownerships, but there is clearly a reservation of the right to change how reservations are made.

As a potentially interesting aside, I just did an update in Lagunamar and wound up getting an Encore package that guarantees me the right to purchase Aventuras points at the current pricing for the next 18 months. It seems kind of interesting that they're giving that guarantee given the rumors from the sales folks that only AC/DC points will be sold once the new program is live. Given that and the potential for a recession starting soon or in progress, it makes me wonder how things are really going to work out for enrolling the unwashed.

Eric B, Im curious about the current developer pricing for Aventuras. Would you mind sharing your offer??

 

[remowidget]

Eric B, Im curious about the current developer pricing for Aventuras. Would you mind sharing your offer??

We did an update in May and they wanted about $55k for 148,100 every year, which is the options of our weeks ownership. I don't remember what all the bonuses were because I wasn't really interested. I was just curious how much more it was than what we had paid 12 years ago. We paid about $35k a week for Lagunamar Platinum lockoff weeks.

 

[Eric B]

I believe it was about $0.45 per option for an annual, higher for a biennial.

 

[remowidget]

Eric B, Im curious about the current developer pricing for Aventuras. Would you mind sharing your offer??

I found this:

 

[VacationForever]

I found this:

View attachment 58962

This is pretty pricey. How long ago was this? Someone posted that they own 276,000 Westin Flex and indicated that it will convert to just under 10K Abound/DC points. That would be close to $100K for that ownership.

 

[jabberwocky]

This is pretty pricey. How long ago was this? Someone posted that they own 276,000 Westin Flex and indicated that it will convert to just under 10K Abound/DC points. That would be close to $100K for that ownership.

At $0.449 per point it’s closer to $125k after closing costs etc are added in. Of course if you are trading in a Nanea week or similar I’m guessing you get to apply that towards your purchase price. But yeah - it’s not cheap.

 

[Jayco29D]

In reading all the various threads about the integration, it has me wondering why anyone would want to buy trust points (resale or retail) or enroll their weeks. It sounds like only deeded week owners get room placement priority. If Abound is simply an exchange company, then why bother since it costs so much to get enrolled into it.

 

[VacationForever]

In reading all the various threads about the integration, it has me wondering why anyone would want to buy trust points (resale or retail) or enroll their weeks. It sounds like only deeded week owners get room placement priority. If Abound is simply an exchange company, then why bother since it costs so much to get enrolled into it.

I am not sure how you get this impression. Trust points reservations are treated the same as deeded owner reservations. For instance, I have gotten ocean view rooms at NCV when I used trust points as opposed to no view when I had exchanged through II.

 

[Patplh]

Hi, new member here, but svo/vistana owner since 2004 (Westin Kierland). We were planning to deposit our 2022 week with interval international. Any idea of the likelihood that an Abound exchange will be an option in 2022 so I should consider not depositing it with interval? In reality, we've already been on 2 nice vacations this year, so I mainly want to deposit it so I can extend it's usage a few years. Thanks for any insight.
Patty

 

[dsmrp]

Hi, new member here, but svo/vistana owner since 2004 (Westin Kierland). We were planning to deposit our 2022 week with interval international. Any idea of the likelihood that an Abound exchange will be an option in 2022 so I should consider not depositing it with interval? In reality, we've already been on 2 nice vacations this year, so I mainly want to deposit it so I can extend it's usage a few years. Thanks for any insight.
Patty

I recall earlier posts from sales mtgs that Abound would be effective for 2023 weeks.
Hope others will chime in from their more recent mtgs.

 

[jabberwocky]

Hi, new member here, but svo/vistana owner since 2004 (Westin Kierland). We were planning to deposit our 2022 week with interval international. Any idea of the likelihood that an Abound exchange will be an option in 2022 so I should consider not depositing it with interval? In reality, we've already been on 2 nice vacations this year, so I mainly want to deposit it so I can extend it's usage a few years. Thanks for any insight.
Patty

Why don’t you bank your SO in Vistana? That will extend it by two years and is cheaper than paying the exchange fee in II.

 

[jabberwocky]

I recall earlier posts from sales mtgs that Abound would be effective for 2023 weeks.
Hope others will chime in from their more recent mtgs.

That was my understanding. What does have me concerned is I believe you have to elect for the following year no later than September 30.

I know the official launch is supposed to be in July or August (I will point out we were originally told May or June when the soft launch started in March). If it does get launched this summer you should be fine. If there are any more delays (probably IT related) then you may not have much time to elect for Abound points.

 

[kozykritter]

Hi, new member here, but svo/vistana owner since 2004 (Westin Kierland). We were planning to deposit our 2022 week with interval international. Any idea of the likelihood that an Abound exchange will be an option in 2022 so I should consider not depositing it with interval? In reality, we've already been on 2 nice vacations this year, so I mainly want to deposit it so I can extend it's usage a few years. Thanks for any insight.
Patty

The message from the beginning is that Abound/Vistana integration will launch this year for 2023 use year bookings. I had this confirmed in two recent sales presentations this month. It won't be an option for your 2022 week.

 

[kozykritter]

That was my understanding. What does have me concerned is I believe you have to elect for the following year no later than September 30.

I know the official launch is supposed to be in July or August (I will point out we were originally told May or June when the soft launch started in March). If it does get launched this summer you should be fine. If there are any more delays (probably IT related) then you may not have much time to elect for Abound points.

The September election deadline (or October for the highest elite levels) has been in place for Marriott enrolled weeks owners to elect points since they first formed the DC trust in 2010 so they are just keeping the same structure for Vistana owners that elect points. I'm guessing the reason they have owners do it so far in advance is to be able to move their following year inventory into the pool because everyone wants to book in advance, not wait until January 1st to book that years inventory.

 

[dsmrp]

That was my understanding. What does have me concerned is I believe you have to elect for the following year no later than September 30.

I know the official launch is supposed to be in July or August (I will point out we were originally told May or June when the soft launch started in March). If it does get launched this summer you should be fine. If there are any more delays (probably IT related) then you may not have much time to elect for Abound points.

Yup it will be tight if Marriott keeps same deadlines for Vistana enrollment & election. And I think Sept 30 was for up to Executive level. Presidential and Chairman has another month to October 30/31.

 

[dsmrp]

Why don’t you bank your SO in Vistana? That will extend it by two years and is cheaper than paying the exchange fee in II.

@Patplh , the banking deadline is June 30, 4 more days. I'm assuming you are not Vistana 3* or 4* etc, in which you'd have at least until Sept 30 to bank.

 

[Patplh]

Why don’t you bank your SO in Vistana? That will extend it by two years and is cheaper than paying the exchange fee in II.

I like the option to try new places. We are also on the east coast with 11 and 14yo so we need the larger pool of options bc everything (flights, hotel, school schedule) need to align perfectly to minimize missing school (just starting to be an issue with my older one starting high school). We've also had great luck with II - elite mx vacation, last minute feb vacation ski trip within driving distance, so it's worked out for us even if it costs a bit more. Thanks for the comment. I actually didn't realize banking with vistana was a 2 year extension too.