Looking into HGVC...again

[danor71]

First off, thanks to TUGBBS for being a great source of information and having saved me lots of money since I discovered this place 2 years ago.


Over a year ago I had seriously looked into purchasing a HGVC timeshare. After crunching the numbers, I concluded it was not worth it for me and my family.


Fast forward to December 2019, my personal situation has changed. I have a business that requires me to travel to Orlando and Vegas on a monthly basis. Therefore, once a month, I am travelling for approximately a week. What I have been doing is renting out timeshares through fellow TUG members.


Given this frequent travelling, I am now thinking it would make more financial sense for me to buy a timeshare and reserve additional days/weeks for cash as needed. This came to me last night as I was looking into my next trip. I will be crunching the financial analysis this weekend but my hunch is, i will be better off financially and I will always have the option of booking additional weeks for personal use elsewhere.


Looking for your opinion on my situation and my logic.


More to come!


Cheers

 

[GT75]

Given this frequent travelling, I am now thinking it would make more financial sense for me to buy a timeshare and reserve additional days/weeks for cash as needed. This came to me last night as I was looking into my next trip. I will be crunching the financial analysis this weekend but my hunch is, i will be better off financially and I will always have the option of booking additional weeks for personal use elsewhere.

Are you thinking of then booking open season (Cash rates at < 30 days)?

 

[tombanjo]

In a year, if your situation changes, you will still be on the hook for yearly MF’s. There is lots of availability of cheap rooms in either city, so I can’t see a big savings. However, if you are staying for a week, I can understand a bit of a nicer room at a resort. If you have been renting units, you have a better idea than I do on how suitable they are for your needs.

I just am leery about a long term commitment to basically is a need for hotel rooms. If you are paying out of your pocket, that may change the dynamic - but I assume for work there is reimbursement so who is saving money and who is taking a long term risk?

 

[alwysonvac]

Don’t do it. For Orlando and Vegas, I would continue renting.

Timeshare costs are just going to continue to climb as HGVC looks for more ways to get money out of their members.

In additional to renting directly from owners at sites such as https://www.redweek.com/
try the exchange companies public rental site
For RCI - https://www.endlessvacationrentals.com/
For II - https://www.condodirect.com/

 

[danor71]

Are you thinking of then booking open season (Cash rates at < 30 days)?

Yes, I would book open season since this is what I usually do today ie book within 30 days.

In a year, if your situation changes, you will still be on the hook for yearly MF’s. There is lots of availability of cheap rooms in either city, so I can’t see a big savings. However, if you are staying for a week, I can understand a bit of a nicer room at a resort. If you have been renting units, you have a better idea than I do on how suitable they are for your needs.

I just am leery about a long term commitment to basically is a need for hotel rooms. If you are paying out of your pocket, that may change the dynamic - but I assume for work there is reimbursement so who is saving money and who is taking a long term risk?

This is my own business so it’s a straight savings for me/my company. You are right about not knowing what the future holds but I see this for the next 5 years at least.

You are right about the need for hotel and looking at the open season rates last night, I sometimes pay cheaper than that today to stay at different resorts like Wyndham.

My thinking was that savings in per night stays using open season would offset the annual cost of the MF and at the end of the year, I would have the points to use for my personal vacation.

Don’t do it. For Orlando and Vegas, I would continue renting.

Timeshare costs are just going to continue to climb as HGVC looks for more ways to get money out of their members.

In additional to renting directly from owners at sites such as https://www.redweek.com/
try the exchange companies public rental site
For RCI - https://www.endlessvacationrentals.com/
For II - https://www.condodirect.com/

I’ve been reading up a lot on this lately. Seems HGVC is adding costs and trimming perks or at least some of the perceived perks. For me the open season rates are key. However in Orlando, no major price increase.

 

[hurnik]

For Vegas and Orlando, possibly I'd look into those "extended stay" hotels that'll have kitchens, etc. Sometimes if you do enough repeat business the hotel itself (not vs. the website) might give you a better deal. Plus you'll rack up "status" with the hotel.

 

[pianodinosaur]

I perceive my timeshares as a luxury. I don’t know if purchasing a timeshare for business travel could be interpreted as a legitimate business expense and tax deductible or not. If your main purpose for travel is business, you may be better off joining Hilton Honors, accumulate points, and have an easily justified business expense.

 

[CaliGirl08]

Yes, I would book open season since this is what I usually do today ie book within 30 days.

Did you see other thread that open season increased significantly in 2020?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Did you see other thread that open season increased significantly in 2020?

According to @alwysonvac some properties went up significantly (Lagoon Tower) but some went down. OP is looking at Orlando and Tuscany Village declined.

"For example a week stay during Platinum Season in the Orlando’s Tuscany Village
Studios was $847 (decreased to $679)
One bedroom was $1019 (decreased to $841)
Two bedroom was $1415 (decreased to $1333)
Three bedroom was $1937 (decreased to $1807)"​

Most of the NYC properties declined significantly too (with the exception of Residences...not sure why). Owners can get a one bedroom premier during high season on a high floor with a view of Central part or the city for $302 a night plat season weekend ($250/night weekday gold) plus free breakfast and evening appetizers in the lounge. Similar 1 bdrm quality with view would run north of $500 - $800+/night in a hotel so a nice deal. Alternatively a larger studio premier with a seating area and view of Central park for $230/night weekend plat. That's a decent value and a good reason to own there if you would use it.

Would be interesting to compare if Vegas rates have changed.

 

[alwysonvac]

Would be interesting to compare if Vegas rates have changed.

In Vegas, the larger unit sizes took a big hit (see below).
This is also in the other thread but perhaps I need to post a better picture

Since the 2020 OS rates seem to be consistent within a destination based on unit size. In the table below, simply listed one from each grouping (Orlando resorts, Vegas resorts, Carolina resorts, Oahu resorts, Big Island resorts and the two ski resorts (Valdoro and Sunrise)).

 

[Panina]

Yes, I would book open season since this is what I usually do today ie book within 30 days.

This is my own business so it’s a straight savings for me/my company. You are right about not knowing what the future holds but I see this for the next 5 years at least.

You are right about the need for hotel and looking at the open season rates last night, I sometimes pay cheaper than that today to stay at different resorts like Wyndham.

My thinking was that savings in per night stays using open season would offset the annual cost of the MF and at the end of the year, I would have the points to use for my personal vacation.



I’ve been reading up a lot on this lately. Seems HGVC is adding costs and trimming perks or at least some of the perceived perks. For me the open season rates are key. However in Orlando, no major price increase.

The only way I personally would do it is get a week you would love to use in the future. If open rates change you want to still be happy with what you got.

I also suggest an high demand affiliate versus a mandatory resort. This way if rates change you are not tied to the hgvc system, you have a choice.

 

[alwysonvac]

To give you an idea of maintenance fee costs over time...
Here are my maintenance fees for a one bedroom at the Flamingo in Las Vegas from 2003 to 2020 from the 2020 MF Sticky thread at the top of the forum - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...s-maintenance-fees.296273/page-2#post-2350941

HGVC FLAMINGO (Las Vegas)

My Maintenance Fees for One Bedroom Platinum (4800 ClubPoints) from 2003 to 2020​

YEAR      OE           RE     TAX        SUB      ARDA     DUES       SA      TOTAL      Increase
2003    $431.46    $62.32    $31.52    $525.30    $3.00    $85.00    $0.00    $613.30    $0.00
2004    $433.63    $67.59    $33.70    $534.92    $3.00    $85.00    $0.00    $622.92    $9.62
2005    $442.44    $72.40    $34.40    $549.24    $3.00    $85.00    $0.00    $637.24    $14.32
2006    $451.21    $77.67    $35.52    $564.40    $3.00    $85.00    $0.00    $652.40    $15.16
2007    $470.62    $89.41    $37.99    $598.02    $3.00    $90.00    $59.80   $750.82    $98.42
2008    $501.59    $105.74   $38.21    $645.54    $3.00    $90.00    $96.20   $834.74    $83.92
2009    $539.78    $100.56   $41.79    $682.13    $3.00    $95.00    $95.33   $875.46    $40.72
2010    $546.51    $119.11   $49.09    $714.71    $3.00    $99.00    $0.00    $816.71    ($58.75)
2011    $557.44    $129.93   $44.04    $731.41    $3.00    $114.00   $0.00    $848.41    $31.70
2012    $565.26    $141.56   $26.97    $733.79    $3.00    $119.00   $0.00    $855.79    $7.38
2013    $585.80    $153.70   $27.63    $767.13    $3.00    $125.00   $0.00    $892.13    $36.34
2014    $599.22    $166.13   $31.62    $796.97    $5.00    $136.00   $0.00    $932.97    $40.84
2015    $616.60    $180.14   $29.45    $826.19    $5.00    $140.00   $0.00    $966.19    $33.22
2016    $635.54    $188.71   $29.64    $853.89    $5.00    $150.00   $0.00    $1,003.89  $37.70
2017    $639.49    $204.94   $29.56    $873.99    $5.00    $159.00   $0.00    $1,037.99  $34.10
2018    $648.28    $222.57   $29.98    $900.83    $5.00    $170.00   $0.00    $1,075.83  $37.84
2019    $665.60    $241.72   $30.49    $937.81    $5.00    $176.00   $0.00    $1,118.81  $42.98
2020    $678.29    $261.05   $31.35    $970.69    $5.00    $182.00   $0.00    $1,157.69  $38.88

Legend
OE = Operating Expense
RE = Reserve Fee
TAX = Real Estate Tax
Sub = Subtotal (OE + RE + TAX)
ARDA = Voluntary ARDA
DUES = Club Dues (increased from $85 to $182)
SA = Special Assessment (in 2007, 2008 and 2009)

NOTE: For multi-week owners Annual Club Dues are paid only once (not for each week)

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@alwysonvac you never cease to amaze me. Interesting that the smaller units in Vegas declined. That sounds good for us and there is plenty of inventory in Vegas but sucks for the 2 bdrms.

 

[danor71]

The only way I personally would do it is get a week you would love to use in the future. If open rates change you want to still be happy with what you got.

I also suggest an high demand affiliate versus a mandatory resort. This way if rates change you are not tied to the hgvc system, you have a choice.

Sound advice! thanks

To give you an idea of maintenance fee costs over time...
Here are my maintenance fees for a one bedroom at the Flamingo in Las Vegas from 2003 to 2020 from the 2020 MF Sticky thread at the top of the forum - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...s-maintenance-fees.296273/page-2#post-2350941

Thanks for that. Helpful data given i like numbers.

In Vegas, the larger unit sizes took a big hit (see below).
This is also in the other thread but perhaps I need to post a better picture

Since the 2020 OS rates seem to be consistent within a destination based on unit size. In the table below, simply listed one from each grouping (Orlando resorts, Vegas resorts, Carolina resorts, Oahu resorts, Big Island resorts and the two ski resorts (Valdoro and Sunrise)).

View attachment 15466

View attachment 15469

Since I tend to stay Orlando and Vegas, I should be ok.

 

[alwysonvac]

Since I tend to stay Orlando and Vegas, I should be ok.

Just keep in mind that OS rates will increase in the future.

 

[danor71]

Just keep in mind that OS rates will increase in the future.

I understand but since it would be tied to supply and demand. Hotel rates would increase as well and any last minute offerings here on TUG would also reflect market increases, i think.

 

[cas42021]

If Vegas and Orlando are your 2 main destinations, and you stay a week at a time, then I think it might make sense. Especially since Vegas and Orlando are always available. These 2 destinations are my top 2 as well, and I purchased a 4800 Platinum 1BR at Flamingo that I use for 3 separate weeks/trips per year in Gold season in a Studio at 1600pts per week. That gets me 21 nights a year for around ~$57per night considering my MF's and Club Dues are around ~$1200 per year.

 

[Mowogo]

The only way I personally would do it is get a week you would love to use in the future. If open rates change you want to still be happy with what you got.

I also suggest an high demand affiliate versus a mandatory resort. This way if rates change you are not tied to the hgvc system, you have a choice.

I would add that if you are in Vegas for certain high profile times, ownership is very useful for saving money. I actually bought a Silver season in Vegas specifically because I go for CES and the cost of the maintenance fee for a week for my 2BR is less than it would cost to stay a few nights in many resorts on the strip.

 

[danor71]

If Vegas and Orlando are your 2 main destinations, and you stay a week at a time, then I think it might make sense. Especially since Vegas and Orlando are always available. These 2 destinations are my top 2 as well, and I purchased a 4800 Platinum 1BR at Flamingo that I use for 3 separate weeks/trips per year in Gold season in a Studio at 1600pts per week. That gets me 21 nights a year for around ~$57per night considering my MF's and Club Dues are around ~$1200 per year.

Just when I had convinced myself it was not worthwhile, you hit me with some financial data!

 

[danor71]

I would add that if you are in Vegas for certain high profile times, ownership is very useful for saving money. I actually bought a Silver season in Vegas specifically because I go for CES and the cost of the maintenance fee for a week for my 2BR is less than it would cost to stay a few nights in many resorts on the strip.

You are absolutely right. I was looking at Vegas for New Years and could not convince myself to settle for a regular hotel room.

 

[danor71]

So I crunched some numbers. I wanted to convert what I paid in dollars to points that I would have otherwise needed.

In the last 6 months, I would have needed roughly 13,000 HGVC points to cover my 28 days of usage. Assuming it cost me about $2500 for 28 days that works out to $0.19 per point which is essentially pretty close to what some of the numbers I'm seeing in terms of what is a good mf/pt to consider in resale.

I tend to book within 30 days of travel.

So if on per point basis I'm breaking even - meaning my cost to own is the same as my cost to rent, the issues are:

1. I still have to add in the initial investment for a TS that would provide 14,000-28,000 pts (analysis is for 6 months and I am averaging out)
2. If I allocate all my available weeks to work, what other benefits remain for me other than booking with open season rates? Open season rates are higher than my current per night rate.
3. Are there special reduced rates available to owners?
4. Based on my situation, is HGVC the right fit for me?

Thanks for any further guidance.

 

[dayooper]

So I crunched some numbers. I wanted to convert what I paid in dollars to points that I would have otherwise needed.

In the last 6 months, I would have needed roughly 13,000 HGVC points to cover my 28 days of usage. Assuming it cost me about $2500 for 28 days that works out to $0.19 per point which is essentially pretty close to what some of the numbers I'm seeing in terms of what is a good mf/pt to consider in resale.

I tend to book within 30 days of travel.

So if on per point basis I'm breaking even - meaning my cost to own is the same as my cost to rent, the issues are:

1. I still have to add in the initial investment for a TS that would provide 14,000-28,000 pts (analysis is for 6 months and I am averaging out)
2. If I allocate all my available weeks to work, what other benefits remain for me other than booking with open season rates? Open season rates are higher than my current per night rate.
3. Are there special reduced rates available to owners?
4. Based on my situation, is HGVC the right fit for me?

Thanks for any further guidance.

1. Depends on what you buy. You can get some of those points fairly cheap on eBay, but would that really save you money? You would be just breaking even with MF’s and still have the commitment of 2-4 timeshares.

2. None. Even the Hilton Honors you can get without the timeshare.

3. Nope

4. In my humble opinion, no. Buying to go to Vegas and Orlando really isn’t what you want. You can stay there for the same or less than the cost of the resale timeshare.

We bought our TS not to save money, but to force us to take a vacation. We went to Myrtle Beach cheaper than what we could have stayed at a comparable resorts, but that’s more expensive than Orlando or Vegas. Going to Hawaii on Vegas points is where the real savings happens.

 

[danor71]

We bought our TS not to save money, but to force us to take a vacation. We went to Myrtle Beach cheaper than what we could have stayed at a comparable resorts, but that’s more expensive than Orlando or Vegas. Going to Hawaii on Vegas points is where the real savings happens.

Thanks for the response.

Your last comment is the most important one. There is a true benefit in owning. If owned Vegas and used my vegas points to go to Hawaii, then I could use open season rates for my business trips.

Granted, it would cost me more per night for business (although that could be a deductible expense) while I could benefit from the ownership privilege for personal travel with my family.

 

[presley]

EDIT: nevermind, read post wrong.

 

[dayooper]

Thanks for the response.

Your last comment is the most important one. There is a true benefit in owning. If owned Vegas and used my vegas points to go to Hawaii, then I could use open season rates for my business trips.

Granted, it would cost me more per night for business (although that could be a deductible expense) while I could benefit from the ownership privilege for personal travel with my family.

There are places in Hawaii that are hard to book in Club season, namely Oahu. If you want The Big Island, it’s easier to reserve, but Oahu during peak times is harder. Make sure you read up on the availability of where you might want to go. Do a search here on the TUG forums for the resorts you want and take a peak at the availability. As mid-westerners, we are more inclined to the eastern resorts so I’m not as familiar with Hawaii.