KBV: The Truth Please

[CO skier]

If that's a question for me, I don't.

Sorry for the confusion. My reply post and question above is directed to magmue and others who think there is some secretive Wynham agenda to "ram through the Special Assessment."

I quoted your post because it makes sense, in contrast to magmue's completely unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

 

[schreff]

These two statements are contradictory. If it was about acquiring more deeded weeks for the least amount of $ spent, seems like they would continue offering the exit program, which requires the owner to stay current on MF while the process is wending its way through their system. We went ahead and paid our 2023 MF, but I agree that KBV is likely to have an increase in delinquencies.

What is the long game for Wyndham regarding KBV? I would love to know. But it has occurred to me that perhaps Wyndham stopped accepting KBV Ovations deedbacks after acquiring enough weeks to give them the 50% ownership required to ram through the Special Assessment, which requires a majority owner vote. Then the delinquencies will go through the roof. Will Wyndham pursue delinquent owners for unpaid assessments?

Nothing at all contradictory concerning the above by me. My position is that Wyndham wants to acquire more

These two statements are contradictory. If it was about acquiring more deeded weeks for the least amount of $ spent, seems like they would continue offering the exit program, which requires the owner to stay current on MF while the process is wending its way through their system. We went ahead and paid our 2023 MF, but I agree that KBV is likely to have an increase in delinquencies.

What is the long game for Wyndham regarding KBV? I would love to know. But it has occurred to me that perhaps Wyndham stopped accepting KBV Ovations deedbacks after acquiring enough weeks to give them the 50% ownership required to ram through the Special Assessment, which requires a majority owner vote. Then the delinquencies will go through the roof. Will Wyndham pursue delinquent owners for unpaid assessments?

 

[schreff]

You seem that you do not understand fully what I wrote so perhaps this will help. Wyndham wants to acquire more inventory for pennies on the dollar so that their inventory increases and their very aggressive sales team adds money to their pockets, so that Wyndham stockholders benefit by greater profits from these new sales and so that Wyndham management can justify higher salaries. I then stated that I would have considered the Wyndham buyback program but it ceased to exist. Why would Wyndham not stop their buyback program now when after the massive special assessment they can buy the same deeded property for perhaps 200% less than what they would have paid with their buyback program due to foreclosures? Also, time is on Wyndham's side not ours. Most folks like me have paid their 2023 maintenance fees which most likely would not have occurred for a high percentage if the special assessment was finalized and/or more negative information was disclosed by management and the Board. Of course, I may be wrong but I am just stating common sense principles in a world where savage tactics have been used by developers, management and large corporation in the past.

 

[schreff]

You must have missed reading this erudite post:



Just curious how you or any other KBV owner thinks the resort can continue operating without the repairs being made. How can the repairs be made without a Special Assessment?

Good post and the answer is it can't. If the bank will only lend $ 10 M that tells me that the solution is either bankruptcy or a loan from Wyndham. I cannot get them to release the audited financial statements but what do you think the percentage of bad debt will be if this special assessment comes to fruition? Bad debt equals foreclosures and foreclosures mean additional collection costs and attorney fees. This is the slow spiral to the death of KBV.

 

[bnoble]

Wyndham wants to acquire more inventory for pennies on the dollar

Of course they do! But, imposing a special assessment (that they have to then pay their share of) isn't the way to do that, because it is dimes on the dollar, not pennies. Pennies on the dollar would be taking back KBV deeds through Ovation or Certified Exit or whatever they are calling the "give us your deed and we give you nothing in return" program---and they've stopped doing that.

The fact that Wyndham won't even take them for free is at least suggestive.

In contrast, foreclosure in Hawaii (which, AFAIK, only has judicial foreclosure or a forced sale process) is neither easy nor free.

buy the same deeded property for perhaps 200% less than what they would have paid with their buyback program due to foreclosures?

What buyback program? Pathways lasted for maybe a few years, at most--almost no one holds a Pathways-eligible deed, and most of this resort was sold long long before Pathways was a thing.

Even the model where you get three years use of the points after surrender isn't a huge burden on Wyndham, because they can use unsold points to back that. They aren't paying extra to make that happen.

 

[schreff]

Please note that CO Skier is not an owner at this resort, and is unaware of the long history of poor Wyndham management and deception that the resort has suffered through. Apparently, he is inserting himself into this discussion because he's a Wyndham supporter.

Instead of arguing with him, I request that we consider his posts to be off-topic, and focus on the issues that concern us as owners.

Agree fully. Those who are affected are aware that the so called conspiracy theory believers are not familiar with Wyndham and the history of KBV in general. A close look at the number of resorts that have dropped Wyndham as management tells us much about what is happening behind to scenes. Thanks.

 

[schreff]

Of course they do! But, imposing a special assessment (that they have to then pay their share of) isn't the way to do that, because it is dimes on the dollar, not pennies. Pennies on the dollar would be taking back KBV deeds through Ovation or Certified Exit or whatever they are calling the "give us your deed and we give you nothing in return" program---and they've stopped doing that.

The fact that Wyndham won't even take them for free is at least suggestive.

In contrast, foreclosure in Hawaii (which, AFAIK, only has judicial foreclosure or a forced sale process) is neither easy nor free.

What buyback program? Pathways lasted for maybe a few years, at most--almost no one holds a Pathways-eligible deed, and most of this resort was sold long long before Pathways was a thing.

Even the model where you get three years use of the points after surrender isn't a huge burden on Wyndham, because they can use unsold points to back that. They aren't paying extra to make that happen.

Are you a lover of Wyndham, work for or in the past worked for Wyndham, or are a Wyndham stockholder? If not, you surely are unable to understand that buyback need not be a program set in stone but a negotiation with Wyndham. They stopped this. Why buyback now and pay the special assessment. Wyndham's position is wait and don't fully disclose the truth. This is why management and the BOD has refused to share the KBV audited financial statements. What would you do if you were Wyndham? Inventory is the name of the timeshare game.

 

[bnoble]

Are you a lover of Wyndham, work for or in the past worked for Wyndham, or are a Wyndham stockholder?

I've owned Wyndham for about 15 years, and have been an active member of TUG for that long. You can go back over my 10,000 posts here and judge for yourself. There's enough there for you to draw a conclusion.

you surely are unable to understand that buyback need not be a program set in stone but a negotiation with Wyndham.

I can't recall anyone posting on this board that they negotiated with Wyndham as an ordinary owner looking to get out. The few that come to mind are folks that got caught up in the "point audit" freeze maybe ten years ago. There are probably a couple that came out of various lawsuits but bound by NDAs. Since then? Not one person.

Of course, you might be a much better negotiator than everyone else on TUG who has used Ovations/Certified Exit.

 

[magmue]

Let me rephrase: it has occurred to me that perhaps Wyndham stopped accepting KBV Ovations deedbacks after acquiring enough weeks to give them the 50% ownership required to ram through the Special Assessment, which requires a majority owner vote control the decision making going forward, without feeling a need to convince individual owners to vote Yes for whatever they decide is best for Wyndham.

And @CO skier, "Just curious how you or any other KBV owner thinks the resort can continue operating without the repairs being made. How can the repairs be made without a Special Assessment?"
Never said that, don't think that. It is clear to me that KBV cannot continue operating long term as-is. It will either have to be repaired requiring a large Special Assessment or it will have to shut down, as 2 buildings IIRC already are. What is not clear to me is what Wyndham's desired outcome is. They may not know that themselves yet.

 

[CO skier]

Good post and the answer is it can't. If the bank will only lend $ 10 M that tells me that the solution is either bankruptcy or a loan from Wyndham.

Bingo.

Plus Wyndham absorbing the defaulted deeds as they do at my home resort. KBV may turn into too much bad debt for even Wyndham to handle.

It is ironic that the deep pockets of Wyndham look to be the only option to possibly SaveKBV.now

 

[tango]

I wonder if we are thinking of the correct scale of this problem. $54 million is a large amount for ordinary people, but Wyndham is a $6.2 billion company with revenue of $1.4 billion per year. I would think that the cost of fixing the problems at KBV is something manageable by a corporation such as Wyndham. Of course some could say that they would still try to stick it to us owners, however, there is a point of diminishing returns to such a strategy, and astute managers should recognize that. Whether or not the strategy is to acquire more deeds by prolonging the uncertainty is anybody’s guess.

 

[bnoble]

I wonder if we are thinking of the correct scale of this problem.

It's not a horrible amount. The 2BRs average about 315K/week. At $9,000/week, that's only about $28/K or so. That's probably on the order of what they pay for new development. But, it would be a lot easier to sell a shiny new resort that they own all of than one with a very complicated ownership structure that will take years to sort out. It's not clear to me that's where I'd put my capital if I were Wydham.

Let me rephrase: it has occurred to me that perhaps Wyndham stopped accepting KBV Ovations deedbacks after acquiring enough weeks to give them the 50% ownership required to ram through the Special Assessment, which requires a majority owner vote control the decision making going forward, without feeling a need to convince individual owners to vote Yes for whatever they decide is best for Wyndham.

I mean, maybe. But if the goal is to get more inventory, why not just take it for free right away rather than go through all the trouble of creating a situation in which many owners default, go through foreclosure (which is not free and takes time), etc. etc. etc.?

Sometimes, the simplest explanation is the right one. And in this case the simplest explanation seems to be exactly what the BOD has told us: the flood remediation turned up a lot of previously unknown problems that are going to be expensive to fix.

 

[bianchicycle]

Does anyone know what the "Year Around" owners are doing during this period. I think about 1/2 of the units were owned by them. It might be a good thing to know their process and if they have started any legal actions.

 

[DeniseM]

The full-ownership owners have sued Wyndham.

 

[bnoble]

Has anyone pulled the initial complaint yet? Should be a good read. Every time I feel sorry for myself for being in this mess, I think about the whole owners in those oceanfront buildings. They are in a world of hurt.

 

[CO skier]

Has anyone pulled the initial complaint yet? Should be a good read. Every time I feel sorry for myself for being in this mess, I think about the whole owners in those oceanfront buildings. They are in a world of hurt.

Could they own, or at least have had the opportunity to purchase, some type of homeowners insurance policy which a weekly timeshare owner would probably not want to purchase?

If any full time owner chose not to purchase homeowners insurance to save some bucks because they thought the timeshare manager would "take care of all that" then the consequences of that decision is on the full time owner.

 

[DeniseM]

 

[DeniseM]

Or what if Neptune, the Ruler of the Sea came to the resort owner and offered to protect the property for 100 fish a month, but the resort owner didn't take him up on it to save some fish, so that would be on the resort owner, but he's dead, so hmmmm.

Or maybe it was the Little Mermaid, or Captain Jack Sparrow, or maybe even Ursula! It's so fun to make things up!

 

[CO skier]

Sometimes, the simplest explanation is the right one. And in this case the simplest explanation seems to be exactly what the BOD has told us: the flood remediation turned up a lot of previously unknown problems that are going to be expensive to fix.

... and why any lawsuits filed by KBV owners are likely destined for the tall trash heap of failed lawsuits against Wyndham.

 

[CO skier]

Instead of arguing with him, I request that we consider his posts to be off-topic, and focus on the issues that concern us as owners.

Well, that did not go anywhere, did it?

Even you cannot resist kibitzing.

 

[DeniseM]

I'm not arguing with you - I'm making fun of you, because you are making things up as you go along...

 

[CO skier]

I'm not arguing with you - I'm making fun of you, because you are making things up as you go along...

Are you suggesting that it was impossible for KBV full time owners to obtain a homeowners policy? Or are you like the Wyndham conspiracy theorists who just invent speculations with no basis in facts? Or both?

 

[schreff]

I've owned Wyndham for about 15 years, and have been an active member of TUG for that long. You can go back over my 10,000 posts here and judge for yourself. There's enough there for you to draw a conclusion.


I can't recall anyone posting on this board that they negotiated with Wyndham as an ordinary owner looking to get out. The few that come to mind are folks that got caught up in the "point audit" freeze maybe ten years ago. There are probably a couple that came out of various lawsuits but bound by NDAs. Since then? Not one person.

Of course, you might be a much better negotiator than everyone else on TUG who has used Ovations/Certified Exit.

A little history lesson so maybe it does have to do with the ability to negotiate. I have owned and been a part of the consequences of Cendant's. Faorfield's and Wyndham's failed management at Wyndham Fairfield Harbour, Wyndham Fairfield Plantation and also negotiated conversion contracts with them. Does that mean that just because you never experienced that it is not true? That's oxymoronic. There are 867,000 Wyndham owners and most of the seasoned ones know that you can negotiate everything from sale prices to contract conversions from fixed weeks to points. Of course, they don't advertise it but you can't believe everything you read in the newspaper or from individuals who think they know it all.

 

[schreff]

It's not a horrible amount. The 2BRs average about 315K/week. At $9,000/week, that's only about $28/K or so. That's probably on the order of what they pay for new development. But, it would be a lot easier to sell a shiny new resort that they own all of than one with a very complicated ownership structure that will take years to sort out. It's not clear to me that's where I'd put my capital if I were Wydham.


I mean, maybe. But if the goal is to get more inventory, why not just take it for free right away rather than go through all the trouble of creating a situation in which many owners default, go through foreclosure (which is not free and takes time), etc. etc. etc.?

Sometimes, the simplest explanation is the right one. And in this case the simplest explanation seems to be exactly what the BOD has told us: the flood remediation turned up a lot of previously unknown problems that are going to be expensive to fix.

Good points but the Board's fiduciary responsibility is to find out when the full scope of the problem was known and research, beyond a prudent man's ability, what to do about it. I have read conflicting views on this and that date is very important as it reflects on negligence and management.

 

[schreff]

I don't see anything new and/or productive and it is getting somewhat sticky. I still have not received any updated audited financial statements from the Board or anyone else. This too would be interesting as the management notes over the years would contain a great deal of information about who, what, when and why. This is why certified audits are more important than certified bloviating.