Ka'anapali Beach Club Owner's Problem

[Werner]

I agree totally. But I had the impression you were asking a general question about how joining the Club caused a person to lose their right to a view category.

I guess I was mostly questioning the explanation that you lose your deeded rights to your unit category when you join the club. I'm still not buying that part of the story. Why would your membership summary on the website have that information if it was meaningless.... to remind you of what you gave up? I don't think so. I believe, although I'd be hard pressed to point to a document that says it, that [assuming availability at the time of reservation] you always have the right to reserve your deeded unit category (view, # of br) for the number of points you were assigned when you bought. Otherwise the solution is simple, quit the club and take back your unit ownership. DRI may be clumsy and absurdly complex but I don't think that they are stupid, at least not at the policy making level. Not being able to reserve your week in your deeded unit category for the points you were assigned would be a serious reason to quit.

I am a little annoyed that KBC doesn't have the Deluxe Ocean Front category anymore (whether it was real or imaginary I don't know but we even found a map somewhere at the time that showed only the upper floors, end-of-the-building directly facing the ocean as Deluxe Ocean Front). That's what we got, unit 1010. We could have breakfast on the lanai and look down on the whales just off shore from 10 stories up and see their entire bodies underwater... almost as good as a whale watch boat. I guess there is no way to reserve just those end units any more... too bad. That was our first internal Sunterra trade and it worked out so well I was pretty impressed with Sunterra.

One thing these confusing conversations do is highlight the importance of reading the documentation you get from DRI, like the points guides, the reservation confirmations, etc, and of course your contract documents. Someone posted recently that they were surprised that the cancellation policy time limits have been changed. I saw that in writing at least once, maybe twice, last year. I'm almost sure that it was in the letter that came with the dues invoice, telling us all about the great things DRI was doing for us to justify the increase in dues.

 

[Walt]

I agree that DRI was worked me for this Vacation.

Walt,

What has happened to you is not OK ( because you do not want this to happen to you again ) but if you look at this from the point of view of:
Your second week is your owner's week and you got your ocean front unit.

Your first week is your "anywhere" unit.

If you look at this from that point of view you don't have any complaints?

PS This in no way should let DRI off the hook, you own an ocean fron unit and that is exactly what DRI should always be giving you. And yes, you do need this cleared up.

KBC reservations worked with me one on this vacation. I am very happy how they handled it.

But, they also will not say I will have an Deluxe Ocean Front unit for my next vacation since they (KBC or DRI) has no Deluxe Ocean Front units (They only say they have Deluxe Ocean View.) When asked how do you get an Ocean Front Unit, KBC will not say.

Walt

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I guess I was mostly questioning the explanation that you lose your deeded rights to your unit category when you join the club. I'm still not buying that part of the story.

When you join the Club you explicitly transfer all reservation rights you have to the Club in exchange for points received. At that point, save for Home Resort Advantage, you have no more right to a view category than a club member who owns anywhere in the system and who has the requisite number of points.

Or to pose it a bit differently, let's say there is a Club member who has deeded garden view week at Po'ipu that they have attached to the Club (8500 points). That member rolls over their points to the next year so they have 17,000 points in their account. That garden view owner now has the same rights to an ocean front unit as does the member with a deeded ocean front unit that they have attached to the Club.

By the way, my account at DRI does not indicate anything about my view category. All it says is that I am a Silver Elite and it indicates the number of points.

 

[Werner]

Steve, I think we are in violent agreement.

At that point, save for Home Resort Advantage, you have no more right to a view category than a club member who owns anywhere in the system and who has the requisite number of points.

That's OK, all that means is that I have to make my reservations before the other guy does. We just used our Silver Elite upgrade rights to reserve an ocean front when we own a ocean view. That's all club stuff and doesn't worry me.

The concern I have is that you are implying that DRI could increase the number of points that it takes to trade into Poipu and I, as an owner, not a trader, might not be able to get a week in my view category for the number of points I was assigned when I joined. Or as in Walt's concern, some Ocean View units are redefined to be something else, say super-ocean-front, and I no longer have enough points to stay in them. I don't think it is possible to do that retroactively. If it is and they tried it I suspect it would cause mass defections.

Anyway, it sounds like most of this discussion is moot. In post #1 Walt says he was assigned to a Deluxe Ocean View and in # 24 it looks like that is what he owns so apparently KBC/DRI didn't do anything wrong.

PS: Our account info also includes the contract number for each week. No wonder its so hard to understand problems people discuss here. DRI is so complex, no two people have the same type of contract/membership. And we haven't even included the confusions that the trust bring into this kind of discussion, like what happens when you mix and match trust points with deeded ownership points. It boggles the mind.

 

[Dollie]

Just so we are on the same page

By the way, my account at DRI does not indicate anything about my view category. All it says is that I am a Silver Elite and it indicates the number of points.

Just so we are on the same page --- From the Diamon Resorts home page, we log in. The Member Area appears and we select Account Overview on the left side of the page. The right side of the page now has an “Upcoming Reservations” sections followed by a “Contracts Summary” sections. There is a table in this section with the columns: Contract #; Resort; Week; Unit; Season; Points; and Status. The Unit column for us states “2 Bedroom Ocean View”

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Steve, I think we are in violent agreement. That's OK, all that means is that I have to make my reservations before the other guy does. We just used our Silver Elite upgrade rights to reserve an ocean front when we own a ocean view. That's all club stuff and doesn't worry me.

The concern I have is that you are implying that DRI could increase the number of points that it takes to trade into Poipu and I, as an owner, not a trader, might not be able to get a week in my view category for the number of points I was assigned when I joined. Or as in Walt's concern, some Ocean View units are redefined to be something else, say super-ocean-front, and I no longer have enough points to stay in them. I don't think it is possible to do that retroactively. If it is and they tried it I suspect it would cause mass defections.

Anyway, it sounds like most of this discussion is moot. In post #1 Walt says he was assigned to a Deluxe Ocean View and in # 24 it looks like that is what he owns so apparently KBC/DRI didn't do anything wrong.

PS: Our account info also includes the contract number for each week. No wonder its so hard to understand problems people discuss here. DRI is so complex, no two people have the same type of contract/membership. And we haven't even included the confusions that the trust bring into this kind of discussion, like what happens when you mix and match trust points with deeded ownership points. It boggles the mind.

DRI already did that when they assigned premium point values during peak periods. You probably got 11,500 points for that ocean view unit at Po'ipu. Before joining the Club, you could reserve any ocean view unit any time of year.

But after joining the club you are shut out from reserving at Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years. DRI doesn't give owners the average points value for the week surrendered. Unless a person is savvy enough to negotiate a rider that allows them to continue to reserve any time of year, the value of a persons week gets diluted when they join the Club.

And DRI can change those point values anytime they want. There is nothing that links those together.

Now, I'm not suggesting that DRI is going to suddenly double the number of points required to reserve weeks at one of the resorts across the board without also adjusting the point values associated with the underlying ownerships. The link between points and view categories will likely always remain intact. That's the link that you are arguing will remain and in that context I generally agree with you.

That being said, there is certainly room for DRI to goose owners with those peak pricing assignments.

+++++

DRI is now reaching the point where it is every bit as complex as Raintree. Back when it looked as if the two might merge, I was trying to imagine how complicated that combination might be!!!

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Just so we are on the same page --- From the Diamon Resorts home page, we log in. The Member Area appears and we select Account Overview on the left side of the page. The right side of the page now has an “Upcoming Reservations” sections followed by a “Contracts Summary” sections. There is a table in this section with the columns: Contract #; Resort; Week; Unit; Season; Points; and Status. The Unit column for us states “2 Bedroom Ocean View”

Mine says 2-Bedroom Standard; I guess that's because our underlying deed is a float-float.

 

[Werner]

But after joining the club you are shut out from reserving at Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years. DRI doesn't give owners the average points value for the week surrendered. Unless a person is savvy enough to negotiate a rider that allows them to continue to reserve any time of year, the value of a persons week gets diluted when they join the Club.

This is where we disagree but I don't have any solid experience to point to since we are retired and avoid holiday weeks like the plague. I think that those premium weeks are for traders or trust owners. I have a vague recollection of trying to make a reservation during what may have been a holiday week around Easter (by phone) and being told we would be charged more than our annual points for the week. When we pointed out that we were owners for that category and that all 52 weeks were red, the reservationist corrected herself and the points were charged at the standard 11,500. Unfortunately, I don't have particulars. Since your account summary is structured differently than ours it may be that we have different membership contracts and cannot assume that we are under the same constraints. It is also hard to respond to other peoples posts when there are so many variations within variations of ownership/membership types. One basic rule seems to be to not make home resort reservations on the web. The site is not equipped to deal with the complexities.

Mine says 2-Bedroom Standard; I guess that's because our underlying deed is a float-float.

Our underlying deed is also float/float. The owned weeks listed in the summary are part of the accounting process that ensures that each unit/week that gets sold is unique (no double-dipping).

 

[dougp26364]

Steve,

I own 2 weeks with DRI. One is a float week which is automatically converted to points each year. The other is a fixed week deeded specific unit that is automatically reserved for me. In order to convert that week to points, I must call and release the week.

In most cases you give up your week for points but, you should maintain the view catagory, as shown by the number of points you receive for your week, when it's converted. During the home resort advantage period you should always have enough points to reserve the week/view you originally purchased as provided in your deed. You do not give up your rights to that week/view. You simply convert it to the number of points required to reserve that week/view.

In this case, it seem apparent that it's DRI who has changed the rules and Walt, not being in THE Club and not using points to reserve his week has been short changed. What will be of utmost importance is what's in writing in Walts contracts which, I assume are at home. The statement the KBC won't answer who get's the ocean front units is saying a lot IMHO.

 

[Werner]

In this case, it seem apparent that it's DRI who has changed the rules and Walt, not being in THE Club and not using points to reserve his week has been short changed. What will be of utmost importance is what's in writing in Walts contracts which, I assume are at home. The statement the KBC won't answer who get's the ocean front units is saying a lot IMHO.

In post #24 Walt says that he owns Deluxe Ocean View, which, according to post #1, is exactly what he was assigned. What did DRI or KBC do wrong?

 

[Walt]

We did not buy from DRI

In post #24 Walt says that he owns Deluxe Ocean View, which, according to post #1, is exactly what he was assigned. What did DRI or KBC do wrong?

When we bought at the Embassy in 1/24/2001, it was called the Embassy and my contract is in a large folder with Embassy written all over it back home. We did not do business with DRI in 1/24/2001. Sunterra name was not wriiten on our contact. It was some partnership from AZ that our check was made out to.

At the time 1/24/2001, I know that the Ocean Deluxe was only Ocean Front. I know I said to our saleperson that we would only buy Ocean Front. I know and my wife also remembers out saleperson saying "Now when you come to the Embassy you will always have an Ocean Deluxe Front Unit. I know that we have been back in 2001, 2003, 2005, 2007 and have always had the Ocean Front Unit.

We bought Ocean Front and that that is what we should get.

Walt

 

[Walt]

Ocean Front versus Ocean View:

I found this Question and Answer on the Ka'anapali Beach Resort Owner's Web Site.

It appears other owners of the Deluxe Ocean Front are having the same problem. They also paid extra for the right to have an Ocean Front unit.

Walt


Ocean Front versus Ocean View:

There are many owners that were manipulated into spending more money to get Deluxe Ocean Front rather than the Ocean View units. Several of these owners can produce maps that were issued when they bought. There is a great deal of anger that Sunterra decided to redraw the map and to designate many units that could have been purchased for far less as “Ocean View” and to drop the Deluxe Ocean Front. Would you respond to this complaint?

A.
Sunterra’s Response

The Developer has never sold a view classified as strictly Ocean Front. Rather, two views, those being Ocean View and Ocean Front, were blended into one view that has always been known as the Deluxe Ocean View category. This is further confirmed by a review of the Disclosure Statement which sets out the different views sold by the Developer. You will note that Scenic View, Ocean View and Deluxe Ocean View have always been the view categories offered under the Timeshare Program.



The Developer has never upgraded a view category of any unit once assigned to the Timeshare Program. It is however true that as the original floors initially intended to be sold under the Timeshare Program expanded up onto the higher floors, that the Deluxe Ocean View category increased as the building makes its ascent upwards. This decision was based upon the fact that the highest floor of the Tower rises above any other building around it giving one a view of the ocean that is competitive with any hotel/resort on the Ka’anapali shoreline within the same view category

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

The Developer has never sold a view classified as strictly Ocean Front. Rather, two views, those being Ocean View and Ocean Front, were blended into one view that has always been known as the Deluxe Ocean View category. This is further confirmed by a review of the Disclosure Statement which sets out the different views sold by the Developer. You will note that Scenic View, Ocean View and Deluxe Ocean View have always been the view categories offered under the Timeshare Program.

Yes - the Disclosure Statement is the key document for you. The Disclosure Statement should also indicate what happens when the developer adds more units to the timeshare program.

Certainly if you paid extra for something that wasn't included in the Disclosure Statement you have a legitimate beef. I would start with a complaint to the Hawai'i Department of Real Estate. Beyond that the phrase "fraudulent inducement" also comes to mind.

 

[Beat Nick]

Brrrr

OR, you could just stay in beautiful Hawaii and enjoy your vacation while the rest of us freeze back here on the mainland...come on, are you really in room that much anyway? Enjoy this vacation and don't worry about the view until the next time you book, then insist on what you want and go up the chain of command until you get it. That would be how I would approach this if it where me.

 

[dougp26364]

In post #24 Walt says that he owns Deluxe Ocean View, which, according to post #1, is exactly what he was assigned. What did DRI or KBC do wrong?

When Walt purchased, Deluxe Ocean View was intended as Ocean Front and owners were charged a premium. Now, they've expanded that catagory to include views that are not ocean front.

If you paid $2,000 more for an ocean front unit, wouldn't you be ticked to learn that you were now lumped into a catagory that would put you in an ocean side unit? If Walt wanted ocean side, he could have saved his money and paid for ocean side. But that's not what he wanted. He wanted ocean front and he paid a premium for ocean front.

What's wrong is Walt paid for one view but is now given a view that he could have had for less money. If you pay for the Lincoln but get a Ford Focus instead, you'd be ticked too.

 

[dougp26364]

OR, you could just stay in beautiful Hawaii and enjoy your vacation while the rest of us freeze back here on the mainland...come on, are you really in room that much anyway? Enjoy this vacation and don't worry about the view until the next time you book, then insist on what you want and go up the chain of command until you get it. That would be how I would approach this if it where me.

If you pay $500/night for an ocean front room, would you be happy if the hotel put you in an ocean view room that would have only cost you $300 or would you demand to get the room you paid for?

 

[Werner]

If you pay for the Lincoln but get a Ford Focus instead, you'd be ticked too.

If I bought a Lincoln I would expect the registration to say Lincoln, not Ford. Maybe I'm misinterpreting #24; it appears that the registration is for a Ford

I know that the Deluxe Ocean View category existed for a while because we traded into one in 2006. Dollie's review of our KBC stay in March '06 is still in the TUG reviews. It clearly says Deluxe Ocean Front. Yet, I also looked back at the printed SunOptions books for those years and there is no reference to DOF. But it was on the webpage when we searched for dates and we found a map somewhere that isolated the DOF's. Hopefully that map is in Walt's records.

FOUND IT, on TUG of all places....
http://tug2.com/ResortImages/Hawaii/Maui/embka_fp.gif

You may have to log in to get it. I am a little surprised that it shows Ocean Front wrapping around, that's not what I remember.

 

[dougp26364]

If I bought a Lincoln I would expect the registration to say Lincoln, not Ford. Maybe I'm misinterpreting #24; it appears that the registration is for a Ford

I know that the Deluxe Ocean View category existed for a while because we traded into one in 2006. Dollie's review of our KBC stay in March '06 is still in the TUG reviews. It clearly says Deluxe Ocean Front. Yet, I also looked back at the printed SunOptions books for those years and there is no reference to DOF. But it was on the webpage when we searched for dates and we found a map somewhere that isolated the DOF's. Hopefully that map is in Walt's records.

FOUND IT, on TUG of all places....
http://tug2.com/ResortImages/Hawaii/Maui/embka_fp.gif

You may have to log in to get it. I am a little surprised that it shows Ocean Front wrapping around, that's not what I remember.

What will be of most importance is Walt's paperwork and what view it guarentee's him. If it says he bought a Lincoln rather than a Ford, he shouldn't have to fight each time he checks in to get the view for which he's paid. Walt bought with Embassy which was taken over by Sunterra which was purchased by DRI. That's three management/developers in 8 years. Mistakes are bound to happen with that many changes in both sales and reservations.

To DRI's credit they have moved Walt into the view catagory he insists he paid a premium price to have. This will be debated with DRI after Walt has returned home. At least for this trip, DRI has provided Walt with the view he insists that he owns. That, IMO, was the right thing for DRI to do for Walt.

Of course stress has still been introdcued to Walt's vacation. Hopefully his paperwork will bear out his contention that he paid a premium for an ocean front only timeshare week and DRI will acknowledge that without any further action required. If, however, Walt purchased his week and his contract does not specifiy that his is an ocean front only view, then his next vacation at KBC may have a different result as to the view he's given.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

What will be of most importance is Walt's paperwork and what view it guarentee's him. If it says he bought a Lincoln rather than a Ford, he shouldn't have to fight each time he checks in to get the view for which he's paid. Walt bought with Embassy which was taken over by Sunterra which was purchased by DRI. That's three management/developers in 8 years. Mistakes are bound to happen with that many changes in both sales and reservations.

Minor point of clarification. Embassy was never the developer and never had any ownership. The Embassy association was solely a franchise arrangement.

The developer was a limited partnership, the general partner in which was Sunterra at the time Walt purchased. (The original general was Marc Resorts, which became Signature, which was then acquired by Sunterra.)

After Hilton decided not to purchase the resorts about four years ago, Sunterra bought out the partnerships and dropped the Embassy affiliation. Sunterra was then acquired by DRI.

So there has really been only one real change in control, and the problems Walt is having apparently originate before that change in control.

 

[Werner]

Steve, Doug; Do you remember a few years ago someone with a week at Poipu said that she had purchased an early contract from the developer there, Poipu Partners I think, that gave them the right to reserve any unit, not just any view category, but any specific unit they wanted. I forgot what the category was called. Apparently Poipu Partner's/Embassy/Sunterra honored their reservation requests (for the best corner Ocean Front units) for years because they had developer inventory. Eventually the developer's inventory shrunk to the point where they could no longer support that commitment and they were assigned to generic Ocean Front. They were angry and eventually found out that their contract/deed was actually written for generic Ocean Front. The special agreement was not embedded in the documents. However, for some reason the reservation people knew to assign them to their preferred units until the inventory could no longer support it.

This maybe what is happening to Walt and any other phantom Deluxe Ocean Front owners at KBC. Sunterra/Diamond played the game as long they could and finally gave up. Kinda like Bernie Madoff.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Steve, Doug; Do you remember a few years ago someone with a week at Poipu said that she had purchased an early contract from the developer there, Poipu Partners I think, that gave them the right to reserve any unit, not just any view category, but any specific unit they wanted. I forgot what the category was called. Apparently Poipu Partner's/Embassy/Sunterra honored their reservation requests (for the best corner Ocean Front units) for years because they had developer inventory. Eventually the developer's inventory shrunk to the point where they could no longer support that commitment and they were assigned to generic Ocean Front. They were angry and eventually found out that their contract/deed was actually written for generic Ocean Front. The special agreement was not embedded in the documents. However, for some reason the reservation people knew to assign them to their preferred units until the inventory could no longer support it.

This maybe what is happening to Walt and any other phantom Deluxe Ocean Front owners at KBC. Sunterra/Diamond played the game as long they could and finally gave up. Kinda like Bernie Madoff.

That's called a float-float ownership. I have one of those; I still use it to reserve ocean front units. The status and rights of the unit is written into the timeshare documents. (In the Disclosure Statement those units are identified as "Type II units".) As far as I know there haven't been any changes at all in those units or their usage rights.

 

[Werner]

Does that mean that you can literally reserve a specific unit ("reserve", not just "request" like all of us can)?

I'm afraid that there is no hope that this discussion will clarify anything! I just looked at my Disclosure Statement and it says that all 2BR units, all 201 of them, are Type II units, including my Ocean Views. That would include all Garden, Partial Ocean View, Ocean View and Ocean Front. No wonder Cloobeck wants to simplify. No two memberships/deeds operate under the same rules/constraints. No wonder the front line personnel that interact with customers appear to make so many mistakes. Who would not make mistakes?

Anyway, I hope Walt finds that his temporary "fix" is a permanent one and gets embedded into his documents. I'm sure that someday I'll have my own tale of wo to tell. Each visit always leads to some new revelation reminding us about how little we still understand about the timeshare process.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Does that mean that you can literally reserve a specific unit ("reserve", not just "request" like all of us can)?

I'm afraid that there is no hope that this discussion will clarify anything! I just looked at my Disclosure Statement and it says that all 2BR units, all 201 of them, are Type II units, including my Ocean Views. That would include all Garden, Partial Ocean View, Ocean View and Ocean Front. No wonder Cloobeck wants to simplify. No two memberships/deeds operate under the same rules/constraints. No wonder the front line personnel that interact with customers appear to make so many mistakes. Who would not make mistakes?

When you make a reservation you reserve into a specific view category. You can also put in a request for a specific room, but they won't formally confirm your room assignment until check-in. I always check with Ohana to find out what rooms are available for specific check-in days, then make my reservation and put in my room request.

If your disclosure statement only mentions Type II units then that statement is an early one from the period before view categories were established. When view categories were established, all sold inventory remained Type II, and all unsold inventory was assigned to a view category and became II-A, II-B, II-C, or II-D. My disclosure very clearly states that an owner of a Type II unit can reserve any available unit, wheras the other owner types are restricted to reserving only in their associated view category.

The only exception is that an owner can reserve at a lower view category, provided that someone in that lower view category can be bumped up to a better view category. That might not always happen. If an ocean front owner puts in a request too late in the year, at a time when there is no remaining unreserved ocean front inventory, that ocean front owner can't downgrade to a lower view category even if space is available. That's because there would be no way to balance inventory by moving an owner from the lower view category into ocean front.

The float-float (Type II) owner isn't restricted that way; if it's available the owner can take it.

+++

When we affiliated our week with the Club, we negotiated an agreement that we can always reserve any unit in any view category in any week using our 10,000 point allotment.

 

[Walt]

If You Want See the Ocean Deluxe Views From KBC Go Here!

http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...ali-beach-club-owners-problem.html#post297602


Keep in mind that all Ocean Deluxe Views views are considered equal to each other according to DRI. Post Number 19 has the pictures.

Which View would you pay extra for?

Walt

 

[Walt]

What I Don't Understand ......

Minor point of clarification. Embassy was never the developer and never had any ownership. The Embassy association was solely a franchise arrangement.

The developer was a limited partnership, the general partner in which was Sunterra at the time Walt purchased. (The original general was Marc Resorts, which became Signature, which was then acquired by Sunterra.)

After Hilton decided not to purchase the resorts about four years ago, Sunterra bought out the partnerships and dropped the Embassy affiliation. Sunterra was then acquired by DRI.

So there has really been only one real change in control, and the problems Walt is having apparently originate before that change in control.

They we bought, Embassy only offered weeks and membership to RCI. When we came back 2 years later, Embassy wanted us to buy into their club. They wanted us to convert in to their club and that would allow us to trade into other Sunterra resorts with what I believe thay called Sun-Option. Trades would be done with membership into II.

If when we bought Sunterra owned the Embassy, why didn't they push Sunterra at that time?

Since we only wanted to use our week, we did not join the sunterra club.

Walt