Ka'anapali Beach Club Owner's Problem

[Walt]

We are using our owner's week at Ka'anapali Beach Club from Jan 10 to Jan 17 and we traded into the KBC from Jan. 17 to Jan 24.

We arrived about 12:15 pm. I was able to check in but the room was not available until 4:00 pm. That was alright since we wanted to take a ride up the North Coast of West Maui.

We got back at 4:00 pm and found out we had been given an Deluxe Ocean View Unit over looking the Pool.

While this may sound great. The Unit number is 406 and it is a great unit with a great view. But it is not what we paid for.

We became owners about 6 years ago. We have a deed to an Ocean Deluxe FRONT Unit.

At the time we bought at the KBC there were 3 types of 1 bedroom units.

Mountain View

Ocean View

Deluxe Ocean Front View.

Each unit have a different price with the Deluxe Ocean Front costing several Thousand Dollars more.

We made our reservation in Jan. 2008 for Jan 2009.

At Check in, KBC told me that they do not have Deluxe Ocean FRONT units anymore. Deluxe Ocean Front Units and Ocean View units are now called Deluxe Ocean View Units.

Well, I am not the type of person that will just say "OK." I only want what I paid for and KBC is telling me there are NO Ocean Deluxe Front Units available.

Customer service was no help yet. I will be talking to management and also I have a 8:30 tour scheduled.

I will be posting how they handle the problem.

Walt

 

[LisaRex]

If you give up your fixed week, are you still entitled to a comparable view? It seems to me, logically, that it would be impossible to guarantee the view if they have fixed weeks because all ocean front owners may be using the week that they own.

 

[dougp26364]

If you give up your fixed week, are you still entitled to a comparable view? It seems to me, logically, that it would be impossible to guarantee the view if they have fixed weeks because all ocean front owners may be using the week that they own.

Did I miss something? Didn't he say he was staying in his owners week now (Jan. 10th) and traded in for next week. Seems to me that he's staying on his owners time now.

I own a floating ocean front week with Marriott and I will always get that ocean front view when staying on my owners time. Marriott doesn't allow overbooking of a view. I would expect DRI to do the same for their owners when that owner is staying on their owned time.

Now, since Walt stated he's exchanged in for next week, I'd expect he'd be treated like an exchanger and get whatever the resort assigns him. But I think (I could be wrong, I often am) that's he's staying on his own time this week.

 

[DeniseM]

At Check in, KBC told me that they do not have Deluxe Ocean FRONT units anymore. Deluxe Ocean Front Units and Ocean View units are now called Deluxe Ocean View Units.

Ask to see the document that made this change.

Ask how to contact the BOD.

Report them to the local BBB.

 

[lv_maui]

View problem

I would first ask for the general manager to be contacted immediately to discuss the problem. There is no reason that your problem can not be escalated on a weekend. If you seem to get the run around, I would email Simon Crawford-Welch, as he just sent an announcement to the DRI yahoo group asking that we contact him before assuming that you are getting ripped off ("my words"). His address is simon.crawford-welch@diamondresorts.com

From my knowledge of the resort, you are guaranteed that view but in a roving number of units that have that view. The guy who really knows the answer is Dave Weiss, the Broker at the inception, but he is no longer with them.

 

[LisaRex]

Did I miss something? Didn't he say he was staying in his owners week now (Jan. 10th) and traded in for next week. Seems to me that he's staying on his owners time now.

Ah, I see now.

Yup. I'd be highly, highly pissed because you pay a premium for the best view. You need to escalate it.

 

[Bill4728]

I find it hard to believe that the resort can simply merge two different view categories into a single one. IMHO, It isn’t something that can be done with a vote of the BOD. I’d ask for the documentation that shows that this was done legally.

If you bought pre"club" and have since joined the "club" this may be the problem. Since you now must follow the club's rules. But if this was a pre club purchase and your still not in the club I'd raise hell!

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I find it hard to believe that the resort can simply merge two different view categories into a single one. IMHO, It isn’t something that can be done with a vote of the BOD. I’d ask for the documentation that shows that this was done legally.

If you bought pre"club" and have since joined the "club" this may be the problem. Since you now must follow the club's rules. But if this was a pre club purchase and your still not in the club I'd raise hell!

Yes. It's critical to know whether this is an owner reservation or a Club reservation. If Walt joined the Club, then what is on the deed is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what was reserved through the Club.

But if this is an unconverted or unaffilated week, then the reservation rights should be unchanged from what was purchased.

 

[Walt]

I am not a Club Onwer

Yes. It's critical to know whether this is an owner reservation or a Club reservation. If Walt joined the Club, then what is on the deed is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what was reserved through the Club.

But if this is an unconverted or unaffilated week, then the reservation rights should be unchanged from what was purchased.

I am still working on the problem. DRI is saying there was never a Deluxe Ocean Front unit.

I got a copy of my contract.

I bought on 1/24/01.

There were 3 Suite types at the time.

Ohana (Deluxe Ocean View) These were Ocean Front units only.

Aloha (Ocean View). These were Pool Units with an Ocean View

LoKahi (Scenic View) View on the Mountains.

They now have Deluxe Ocean View only which includes the Ocean View (The units overlooking the Pool) and Ocean Front. And they say that they can put me in any Deluxe Ocean View Unit which may or may not be Ocean Front.


I still don't know who gets the Ocean Front Units.




Walt

PS. there will be moving me to an Ocean Front Unit on Thursday. But I still don't know it in 2011 they will give me what I paid extra for which was an Ocean Front Unit.

 

[Walt]

The first week is my Owners Week

Did I miss something? Didn't he say he was staying in his owners week now (Jan. 10th) and traded in for next week. Seems to me that he's staying on his owners time now.

I own a floating ocean front week with Marriott and I will always get that ocean front view when staying on my owners time. Marriott doesn't allow overbooking of a view. I would expect DRI to do the same for their owners when that owner is staying on their owned time.

Now, since Walt stated he's exchanged in for next week, I'd expect he'd be treated like an exchanger and get whatever the resort assigns him. But I think (I could be wrong, I often am) that's he's staying on his own time this week.

The first week is my Owner's week. I should be put into an Ohana View (Deluxe Ocean View) Which was Ocean Front at the time I bought in 1/24/01.

The 2nd week they could put me anywhere.

Walt

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I am still working on the problem. DRI is saying there was never a Deluxe Ocean Front unit.

I got a copy of my contract.

I bought on 1/24/01.

There were 3 Suite types at the time.

Ohana (Deluxe Ocean View) These were Ocean Front units only.

Aloha (Ocean View). These were Pool Units with an Ocean View

LoKahi (Scenic View) View on the Mountains.

They now have Deluxe Ocean View only which includes the Ocean View (The units overlooking the Pool) and Ocean Front. And they say that they can put me in any Deluxe Ocean View Unit which may or may not be Ocean Front.


I still don't know who gets the Ocean Front Units.

The Timeshare program documents I received from Po'ipu contain an attachment that lists every unit at the property and the view category assigned to that unit. See if you can find something similar in your documents.

I also suggest that you post about this at the message boards at the DRI website. The mods there are pretty good about getting replies to questions such as this.

 

[Werner]

Walt, your reservation confirmation document, which should have arrived a week or so after you made the reservation, normally documents exactly what category of unit is reserved.... and you are right, there used to be "Deluxe Ocean Front" units because we stayed in one two years ago, trading 11500 points for it, exactly the number of points of a 2 br Ocean View at the Point. The old unit diagrams showed Deluxe Ocean Fronts were the end-on units directly facing the beach. I realize that you don't carry a deed with you on vacation but your deed should have an exact listing of the units, by view category and by number, that you are entitled to reserve, our Poipu deed does.

I just checked the DRI reservations site and indeed the Deluxe Ocean Front units are no longer shown. They can define whatever they want for new buyers and trust members and/or traders but your deed should be specific and bullet-proof.

Steve, are you referring to club "trust" owners not being guaranteed unit types or deeded owners who are also in the club? I don't believe that deeded owners in the club give up their unit "view" rights to join the club. If they ever tried to pull a stunt like that the solution is just to dump DRI and make reservations directly through the Point.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Steve, are you referring to club "trust" owners not being guaranteed unit types or deeded owners who are also in the club? I don't believe that deeded owners in the club give up their unit "view" rights to join the club. If they ever tried to pull a stunt like that the solution is just to dump DRI and make reservations directly through the Point.

Deeded owners do give up their rights to a particular view category if they affiliate their week with the club. If they terminate the affiliation with the trust and revert to deeded status, they get their view rights back.

What happens when you affiliate your week with the Club is that you sign a piece of paper in which you assign your right to receive a week in accordance with your deeded ownership to the club. In exchange, you get the points.

Note that you no longer have a reservation right; you have points. To get back into your view category you need to reserve a unit at the resort through the Club, not through the resort, using the points needed to reserve your view category. In fact, if you try to reserve a unit directly through the resort, the resort will tell you that you need to reserve through the Club.

There's a bit of a twist though. The Club charges more points to reserve during peak times, and I think there is a lower point tier during off times. So if you've been accustomed to reserving at peak times under the weeks system, after you join the Club you might find that you don't have enough points to continue reserving those peak times unless you buy an added slice of ownership.

There is a work around for that, and that is at the time you link up with the Club you also negotiate an agreement that allows you to reserve any unit in your view category for any time of year using the points you get for affiliating your week. That's what we did.

+++++++

At Ka'anapali it appears that the Club has redefined what view categories. But that should only be for their internal purposes. The assignment of units at the time deeds were sold should remain the same for deeded owners. Deeded owners who remain outside the Club should have the same reservation rights they always had.

Of course, it's entirely possible that DRI has managed to screw up the inventory control system so that the system can no longer track and manage inventory based on owner rights.

DRI management got a bit testy at the DRI Boards the other day when I told them their motto ought to be "Simplicity Postponed". That was after I pointed out to them that changes that they said one year ago in writing were a good idea have not been implemented. Instead their website has been going backwards and things like online account statements and paying maintenance fees with points is in worse shape now than one year ago.

 

[Sunterra]

.... and you are right, there used to be "Deluxe Ocean Front" units because we stayed in one two years ago, trading 11500 points for it, exactly the number of points of a 2 br Ocean View at the Point. The old unit diagrams showed Deluxe Ocean Fronts were the end-on units directly facing the beach. I realize that you don't carry a deed with you on vacation but your deed should have an exact listing of the units, by view category and by number, that you are entitled to reserve, our Poipu deed does.

I disagree. I can't find all my print directories, but 2001 didn't even list this resort and the next one I have 2004 lists it as EVR Kaanapali with:
1 Bedroom - Scenic View
1 Bedroom - Ocean View
1 Bedroom - Deluxe Ocean View
2 Bedroom
2 Bedroom - Presidential Suite
2005,2006,2007,2008 all list it the same.

While I don't doubt the OP and his original deeded view, I disagree your post, you may have easily had an end on OF unit but the 11500 points you paid for that reservation was for a 1 Bedroom - Deluxe Ocean View and whatever it got you.

 

[Walt]

KBC has redefined the view categories.

Deeded owners do give up their rights to a particular view category if they affiliate their week with the club. If they terminate the affiliation with the trust and revert to deeded status, they get their view rights back.

What happens when you affiliate your week with the Club is that you sign a piece of paper in which you assign your right to receive a week in accordance with your deeded ownership to the club. In exchange, you get the points.

Note that you no longer have a reservation right; you have points. To get back into your view category you need to reserve a unit at the resort through the Club, not through the resort, using the points needed to reserve your view category. In fact, if you try to reserve a unit directly through the resort, the resort will tell you that you need to reserve through the Club.

There's a bit of a twist though. The Club charges more points to reserve during peak times, and I think there is a lower point tier during off times. So if you've been accustomed to reserving at peak times under the weeks system, after you join the Club you might find that you don't have enough points to continue reserving those peak times unless you buy an added slice of ownership.

There is a work around for that, and that is at the time you link up with the Club you also negotiate an agreement that allows you to reserve any unit in your view category for any time of year using the points you get for affiliating your week. That's what we did.

+++++++

At Ka'anapali it appears that the Club has redefined what view categories. But that should only be for their internal purposes. The assignment of units at the time deeds were sold should remain the same for deeded owners. Deeded owners who remain outside the Club should have the same reservation rights they always had.

Of course, it's entirely possible that DRI has managed to screw up the inventory control system so that the system can no longer track and manage inventory based on owner rights.

DRI management got a bit testy at the DRI Boards the other day when I told them their motto ought to be "Simplicity Postponed". That was after I pointed out to them that changes that they said one year ago in writing were a good idea have not been implemented. Instead their website has been going backwards and things like online account statements and paying maintenance fees with points is in worse shape now than one year ago.

KBC has redefined the view categories. From the 4th Floor to the top floor all units pool side (south side), all units front, and all units north side are now considered Deluxe Ocean View in the Ohana Tower.

Some of the other pool side and north side are also considered Deluxe Ocean View on the lower 3 floors.

When I asked who gets the Ocean Front, they would not give me an answer. It sounds like they are either renting them out or given to the points owners who are willing to use more points.

I have Customer Service looking up my contract for the unit numbers assigned to the defination of Ohana View.

From what I understand it appears DRI wants to do away with KBC Weeks Ownership. If we put the deed in trust we have no control over our timeshare. DRI will have total control over everthing and the owners will be forced to pay the bills with high MF.

Walt

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Walt - one thing you should do is check your deed to see what unit your deed is attached to. Then see what view category that unit is assigned to.

 

[Dollie]

Clarification

In March of 2006, Werner and I stayed in the one-bedroom, deluxe ocean front suite 1010. We were there for 5 nights and used 8050 points for this trade.

 

[Werner]

Walt, before you waste your entire week arguing with them, go to the DRI website, login to the members area, click on "Account Overview". Your contract information should be shown in the second box. Ours, for the Point, includes the View Type and Unit Numbers as stated in the float/float contract and that they are red week units, and the # of club points allotted to each week. The points charged for any week should never be higher than the number of points listed there. Your account summary should list exactly what is in your contract.

Steve, I still don't understand your comment that club members no longer have view rights. The contract specifics; view, unit numbers, and point values are tracked right on the website. Obviously, there have to be openings when you make the reservation but the ownership details are right there for anyone at Diamond to see.

I wonder if the Deluxe Ocean Front was an informal designation that Sunterra created and used to charge traders more points for those upper floor end units. But if they sold weeks in those units separately from the others they have to honor those sales.

FWIW, we always make reservations by phone at Diamond because the website does not seem to deal with all the variables, (home resort, permium vs red weeks, etc).

CORRECTION: the table does not give the unit numbers, it gives the week numbers used for tracking the unit/week sales.

 

[Walt]

Since I am a weeks owners why does my account show 8000 points?

As stated above I am not KBC owner. Yet if I get on DRI website it states I own week 51, 1 bedroom Dix Ocean, and I have 8000 points list.

Why would it be listed as 8000 when I am not a Club member?

The Deluxe Ocean View units are now listed by the KBC as all Pool Side units, all Front units, and all North Side Units in the front or Ohona Tower from the 4th floor to the top floor.

The lower floors have the front units listed as Deluxe Ocean View with some of the Pool Side and North Side as Deluxe Ocean Views.

This was not how it was listed in 1/24/2001 when I bought at the Embassy.

When I ask who gets the Ocean Front Units and how do you get them they would not give me an answer.

I have ask the KBC for the what units were assigned to the Ohona View in my contract. I have all of this information at home but it doesn't help me here.

Does anyone have any information about what units were assigned to the Ohona View back in 1/24/2001 or before?

Walt

PS I own every other year (odd years).

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Steve, I still don't understand your comment that club members no longer have view rights. The contract specifics; view, unit numbers, and point values are tracked right on the website. Obviously, there have to be openings when you make the reservation but the ownership details are right there for anyone at Diamond to see.

Werner:

When you have a deed, that week is assigned to a specific view category. When you call to reserve as the owner of that week, you have the right to reserve a week in that view category. The right is attached to ownership of that week.

When you become part of the Club (whether by adding your week to the Trust of affiliating your week with the Club), you surrender your reservation rights to the Club[. The Club now has the right associated with that deed to reserve week in that view category, which they do, and they put that week into their inventory.

In exchange for your reservation rights, you receive points, which you can use to book from the Club inventory. But you no longer have a specific right to reserve a week in your view category. You can book your view category if it is available in inventory in the Club. But if it is not in Club inventory you cannot contact the resort and say that you would like to reserve a week in your view category, even if the resort has available inventory in your view category. You surrendered that right to the Club. What you have is a right to use points, not a right to reserve a week.

The difference may seem subtle, but it is important and it has both benefits and drawbacks for owners who get involved with the Club.

 

[Werner]

In exchange for your reservation rights, you receive points, which you can use to book from the Club inventory. But you no longer have a specific right to reserve a week in your view category. You can book your view category if it is available in inventory in the Club. But if it is not in Club inventory you cannot contact the resort and say that you would like to reserve a week in your view category, even if the resort has available inventory in your view category.

I don't think those subtleties are at work here. Walt thinks that his view category has been defined out of existence and I don't think the club has the right to arbitrarily redefine unit types in club members' deeds. If the view category is in his contract, then it should be on his members summary page. I don't think any of the above discussion allows the Club to alter its obligations to honor the contract he signed. Obviously the inventory has to be available at the time of the reservation since the resort is float/float but he should be told, specifically in the reservation confirmation, or on the phone, whether the unit type he owns is available. Had he been told that Deluxe Ocean Front no longer exists this discussion would have been held with DRI supervisors in the comfort of his home 12 months ago, not in a panic while you standing at the front counter ready to check-in.

Personally I think most of this discussion is academic. What we have here is a simple screw up and as usual the under-trained, underpaid, overworked customer contact personnel at DRI have no idea how DRI's complex system is supposed to work. It would be interesting to know what it says on the reservation confirmation. We always bring that document with us although we have not run into a problem like this.

 

[Werner]

As stated above I am not KBC owner. Yet if I get on DRI website it states I own week 51, 1 bedroom Dix Ocean, and I have 8000 points list.

Why would it be listed as 8000 when I am not a Club member?

This was not how it was listed in 1/24/2001 when I bought at the Embassy.

PS I own every other year (odd years).

Walt, now I'm really confused. Do you own at KBC? Are you a club member? How did you get into KBC? This whole discussion is predicated on your owning a Deluxe Ocean Front and making reservations for a Deluxe Ocean Front through the Club and then not getting it.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I don't think those subtleties are at work here.

I agree totally. But I had the impression you were asking a general question about how joining the Club caused a person to lose their right to a view category.

As Walt has shared more information, it appears to me most likely that in DRI's records his week has been transferred to the Club. So now his week shows up at the web site with assigned points, and the definition of view categories available to him is the Club's definition, not the resort's definition.

One relatively simple assumption explains all. It's not necessary to resort to convoluted examinations of nefarious conduct, conspiracies, and underhanded dealings. Just apply Ockham's Razor.

 

[Walt]

I am a Week Owner at KBC

Walt, now I'm really confused. Do you own at KBC? Are you a club member? How did you get into KBC? This whole discussion is predicated on your owning a Deluxe Ocean Front and making reservations for a Deluxe Ocean Front through the Club and then not getting it.

I am not a Club memeber. I own a week at KBC which is an Deluxe Ocean View Week.

Walt

 

[Bill4728]

PS. there will be moving me to an Ocean Front Unit on Thursday. But I still don't know it in 2011 they will give me what I paid extra for which was an Ocean Front Unit.

The first week is my Owner's week. I should be put into an Ohana View (Deluxe Ocean View) Which was Ocean Front at the time I bought in 1/24/01.

The 2nd week they could put me anywhere.

Walt

Walt,

What has happened to you is not OK ( because you do not want this to happen to you again ) but if you look at this from the point of view of:
Your second week is your owner's week and you got your ocean front unit.

Your first week is your "anywhere" unit.

If you look at this from that point of view you don't have any complaints?

PS This in no way should let DRI off the hook, you own an ocean fron unit and that is exactly what DRI should always be giving you. And yes, you do need this cleared up.