I sold my timeshare!

[Judi Kozlowski]

RTU

i agree? Ideally you should be able to deed back to the resort, instead of the HOA...re-enter the week into a full sales model...but then a TS would never end up out of sales...and you'd have to deal with those weasels MORE often...How does it work with a Right-To-Use model?

A Right To Use ends on a stated date. If there are no arrangements made between the resort and the Owner it is done. The Resort owns the unit.

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

PCC Transfer

This is my thought also...once the Deed is out of the owners name...the owner is free and clear...

Judi since you are in the industry...while the prices are rediculously high...what percentage of PCC's would you guess DO actually transfer the deed into a different name...vs others that don't do anything

I saw a thread about a PCC that seems to have 900 weeks for ONE resort in its name...so i'd think the percentage isn't that low

If someone needs to get out...like, right now...It might be good for Tug to put together a list of PCC's that will transsfer it almost immediatly

I have no idea how many actually transfer the units out of their names. I hear a lot but it is rumor so I won't repeat it. The units that are sold on eBay are transferred. I am aware of a couple of resorts that are dealing with numerous units in different names that have not paid dues this year so I think this year will be the time that the resorts start to listen to what we have been trying to tell them for the past few years. Either come up with an exit plan or the PCC's will come up with one for you. That is what is happening right now. I would strongly recommend that the Owners contact their resort and beat on their doors with offers of paying a couple of year’s maintenance fees and take the deed back. If a person owes money they should ask why the resort or finance company won't do a short sale. They could contact their Senator or Congressman and ask why you can do a short sale with a house but not with a timeshare.

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

PCC and Upfront fees

This is the begining of the tsunami I mentioned. This is an email I received from one of the brokers that belong to the www.timesharebrokersmls.com

EMAIL,
I just received from an owner a copy of the "Timeshare Transfer Policy For All Spinnaker Resorts effective 01/03/2011. Besides the $125 transfer fee, someone must PREPAY $1,500 for an annual use or $750 for a biennial/even/odd/triennial use, as prepaid Maintenance fees to be paid to the OWNERS ASSOCIATION.

If the title is going into a Corp or LLC, a complete disclosure of all: articles of incorporation, a cret of good standing, most recent filed Federal tax return and officers and their contact info to be reviewed prior to the completion of the transfer can occur. These are the highlights of the new policy.

The HOA Board states it is for the protection of the owners. I can see why they are finally reacting to the "Post Card" companys effect due to the loss of M&T fees. Especially the smaller, sold out resorts.

On the other hand I believe this may have the same effect that a "TAX" would have on a consumer good. This TAX has effectively added 50-100% to the cost to buy most lower end comparable timeshare units. Even if the prepayment is going towards the future M&T fees. So in the short term, why by at this resort when I can buy something else and exchange into it!

I am concerned that this policy may only cause further hardship on the resorts owners looking to get out. Further reducing the value in an already depressed market. The seller may end up paying the bulk of the advance fees to the HOA.

This will become the norm. If you think timeshares are hard to sell now just wait. For those who own timeshare and their resorts or hoa's or developers are not doing something about this somebody needs to make them aware of what is happening.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

This is the begining of the tsunami I mentioned. This is an email I received from one of the brokers that belong to the www.timesharebrokersmls.com

EMAIL,
I just received from an owner a copy of the "Timeshare Transfer Policy For All Spinnaker Resorts effective 01/03/2011. Besides the $125 transfer fee, someone must PREPAY $1,500 for an annual use or $750 for a biennial/even/odd/triennial use, as prepaid Maintenance fees to be paid to the OWNERS ASSOCIATION.

If the title is going into a Corp or LLC, a complete disclosure of all: articles of incorporation, a cret of good standing, most recent filed Federal tax return and officers and their contact info to be reviewed prior to the completion of the transfer can occur. These are the highlights of the new policy. The HOA Board states it is for the protection of the owners. I can see why they are finally reacting to the "Post Card" companys effect due to the loss of M&T fees. Especially the smaller, sold out resorts.

On the other hand I believe this may have the same effect that a "TAX" would have on a consumer good. This TAX has effectively added 50-100% to the cost to buy most lower end comparable timeshare units. Even if the prepayment is going towards the future M&T fees. So in the short term, why by at this resort when I can buy something else and exchange into it!

I am concerned that this policy may only cause further hardship on the resorts owners looking to get out. Further reducing the value in an already depressed market. The seller may end up paying the bulk of the advance fees to the HOA.

This will become the norm. If you think timeshares are hard to sell now just wait. For those who own timeshare and their resorts or hoa's or developers are not doing something about this somebody needs to make them aware of what is happening.

If I'm reading this right, this strikes me as pretty ineffective where the timeshare is deeded property.

Note that the policy does not prevent transfer of ownership; transfer of ownership is accomplished when the deed is filed with the recorder of deeds. All this means is that the resort does not recognize that a transfer has occurred in its records.

The fact that the resort doesn't recognize that ownership has legally transferred doesn't mean that transfer hasn't occurred.

Absent provisions in the covenants or deed restrictions when the timeshare was originally sold that grant the resort the power to approve prospective purchasers, I don't see where a resort has a shred of legal basis to unilaterally restrict a persons right to sell their personal property to whomever they wish.

****

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

Tortious interference with contract rights can occur where the tortfeasor convinces a party to breach the contract against the plaintiff, or where the tortfeasor disrupts the ability of one party to perform his obligations under the contract, thereby preventing the plaintiff from receiving the performance promised. The hardcore instance of this tort occurs when one party induces another party to breach a contract with a third party, in circumstances where the first party has no privilege to act as it does and acts with knowledge of the existence of the contract. Such conduct is termed tortious inducement of breach of contract.​

 

[SPG900NY]

Here's an idea - to the developer

1 - sell to qualified buyers.
2- Equifax, Experian, Trans Union - Run credit checks on buyers.
3- ROFR - exercise it and protect the resorts you are promoting.

HOAs should run credit checks on buyers and have a say as well as they too end up carrying the risk (albeit on our behalf).

I'm surprised they don't all do that. I just bought another TS ($100 sale on Ebay -- seller paid all fees). Attitash required a credit check. They did agree to waive that because I was already an owner there though. But generally, a credit check is required.

Since I'm an owner already, I get their newsletter. They always note that if you ever want to sell, you should contact them first because they will do everything they can do to help you either sell the unit at a good price or find you one that you can actually use if you're just unhappy with your week or need a smaller unit (with lower MF's)... Only way I'd think a resort would absolutely refuse to help you unload your timeshare is if they know they can't sell it again?

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

Transfer of Ownership

If I'm reading this right, this strikes me as pretty ineffective where the timeshare is deeded property.

Note that the policy does not prevent transfer of ownership; transfer of ownership is accomplished when the deed is filed with the recorder of deeds. All this means is that the resort does not recognize that a transfer has occurred in its records.

The fact that the resort doesn't recognize that ownership has legally transferred doesn't mean that transfer hasn't occurred.

Absent provisions in the covenants or deed restrictions when the timeshare was originally sold that grant the resort the power to approve prospective purchasers, I don't see where a resort has a shred of legal basis to unilaterally restrict a persons right to sell their personal property to whomever they wish.

I agree with you 100%. When a deed is recorded the proeprty is transferred.
I have looked at many of the convenants and have never seen one that states that a prospective purchaser must be approved before the transfer can happen. The first right of refusal is in the covenants and deed resrtrictions. Could they change their bylaws and incorporate this into the bylaws? Would they need the vote of all the Owners?

 

[Ridewithme38]

They always note that if you ever want to sell, you should contact them first because they will do everything they can do to help you either sell the unit at a good price or find you one that you can actually use if you're just unhappy with your week or need a smaller unit (with lower MF's)... Only way I'd think a resort would absolutely refuse to help you unload your timeshare is if they know they can't sell it again?

this is really cool...What resort is this? this is the kind of place i'd be interested to buy into

 

[d2r4s]

Easy to sell at $1.00

While people will buy at $1.00, what does it take to get them to look at a fair resale price which would be more favorable to the seller. While people may say look at tug and you won't pay what the time share is selling for from the developer, is that a fair thing to consider.

A fair resale market would be fairer to all concerned if the developers would provide a fairer platform such as allowing benefits on the resale which they would if the property transfer is amongest realatives.

John Beyer

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I agree with you 100%. When a deed is recorded the proeprty is transferred.
I have looked at many of the convenants and have never seen one that states that a prospective purchaser must be approved before the transfer can happen. The first right of refusal is in the covenants and deed resrtrictions. Could they change their bylaws and incorporate this into the bylaws? Would they need the vote of all the Owners?

I don't think so. I don't see where any third party can unilaterally restrict a person's property right without that person's consent. As I posted in another thread, I think the only way that could ever be accomplished is by statute; a law enacted that grants timeshare HOAs the right to disallow sales to corporate entities.

That would be like Ford Motor Company suddenly deciding that no one could sell a used Ford automobile unless Ford first reviewed the purchaser to ensure the buyer would be a suitable owner.

 

[equitax]

Not Exactly.

When the deed is registered, the property is transferred, HOWEVER:

(I will use the case of Grande Vista)

Developer's ( i.e Marriott Ownership Resorts Inc. DBA MVCI) ROFR is recorded in the initial declaration of condominium Book 5114 Page 1488 # 13.2, and is effectively a charge against the land. For clarity purposes, the reference to the condo dox is embedded in the initial (special warranty deed) from MVCI to owner #1.

If owner # 1 sells to owner #2 - warranty deed or quit claim, and ROFR is not waived by MVCI, absolutely nothing would stop the parties from recording the deed, and in the official records owner #2 would be the registered owner of the property - HOWEVER:

This would allow MVCI to contest the transfer of property which would make this a big mess, which could see owner 2 lose the interest, and end up footing part (if not all) of MVCI's legal bills for enforcing their rights. Owner 2 would clearly argue that they bought the parcel in good faith, but clearly they will have not done their due diligence.

I have seized and taken forced possession of enough property - from transferees or third parties to know how this works. If Owner 1 and Owner 2 went through a proper closing and owner 2 had title insurance, owner 2 would be covered (though I could not fathom title insurance co overlooking ROFR).

The ROFR is absolute and could be contested by MVCI on Owner 2 (or any subsequent transferee, which is why it is smart to get title insurance.

I would even go one better - MVCI could get a writ of possession from owner 2, name both owner 1 and 2 in a suit for "loss of revenue" given what it "could" have sold said unit for - The amount Owner 2 would be entitle to receive back would be no more that the original offer price, and most of it would get eaten in legal fees.

My advice is that in transactions consumers are often focussed on what they will gain, when what they need to be focusing on is how much can they afford to lose. Given that MVCI's legal team is in house, Joe Consumer would be outgunned, which in and of itself is a great legal strategy by MVCI.

Caveat Emptor!

I agree with you 100%. When a deed is recorded the proeprty is transferred.
I have looked at many of the convenants and have never seen one that states that a prospective purchaser must be approved before the transfer can happen. The first right of refusal is in the covenants and deed resrtrictions. Could they change their bylaws and incorporate this into the bylaws? Would they need the vote of all the Owners?

 

[das]

I unloaded my timeshare also!

I commend you for finding a way to unload your timeshare.......I used a transfer agency (transfer smart) where I paid an upfront fee to take over the deed on my timeshare, but it worked! and I am relieved! ......no more expenses for a property with maintenance fees that go up yearly. It cost me money up front but in the LONG RUN I am saving. GOOD JOB FOR FINDING A WAY TO UNLOAD YOUR UNWANTED TIMESHARE PROPERTY!

 

[AwayWeGo]

Aftermath Of PCC Hornswoggles & Bamboozles.

I unloaded my timeshare also!

I bought some outstanding el cheapo eBay timeshares that came with fees paid & points banked & free closing & free resort transfer & I don't know what-all.

Sometimes I fret that by purchasing those, I am unwittingly aiding & abetting the up-front fee PCCs that are exploiting un-savvy owners of unwanted timeshares.

At some earlier point in the process, long before I got involved, people that I don't know & whom I will never meet laid out major money for those perfectly good timeshares -- thousands to buy them from the timeshare company, more thousands to convert them to RCI points, then hundreds in maintenance fees that were already paid ahead when the timeshares were transferred to me upon eBay sale.

Naturally, I am glad I got big bargain timeshares. But I am not happy at the idea that by doing so I played a part in the chain of events set in motion by PCC hornswoggles & bamboozles.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[TUGBrian]

I commend you for finding a way to unload your timeshare.......I used a transfer agency (transfer smart) where I paid an upfront fee to take over the deed on my timeshare, but it worked! and I am relieved! ......no more expenses for a property with maintenance fees that go up yearly. It cost me money up front but in the LONG RUN I am saving. GOOD JOB FOR FINDING A WAY TO UNLOAD YOUR UNWANTED TIMESHARE PROPERTY!

Imagine how excited you would be if you had given it away for free, and still had that extra few thousand dollars in your pocket.

to each his own.

 

[DeniseM]

das has only has 3 posts on TUG and all 3 of them are about the same company...

 

[timeos2]

No one that really can't pay is "stuck"

Bought TS 10 years ago - was really talked into something that we knew nothing about. Last year spouse lost job, really just scrapping the bottom of the barrell to stay afloat. How can we get out our our TS without alosing anymore money?

If you truly cannot pay then let the resort know. Tell them you'll give the ownership up as long as you don't owe any more fees going forward. Most will not accept the time back - but that's OK. You then follow up on your stated position that your home, family, food and other true necessities of life must and are taking all your income leaving nothing to pay for niceties like vacation timeshare ownership. In other words you account is and will remain delinquent and unpaid. You may get collection calls (they have that right) and other legal notices up to and including foreclosure notice. Again, that's OK as you don't have the money and if your credit takes a hit that isn't going to matter as chances are other non-essential debts you likely owe are also going unpaid - life happens and you are unable to pay. Thats just the way it is.

Finally they will actually foreclose. This is good! By foreclosing your obligations to pay are gone and you have "sold" your ownership. This is what you wanted and it hasn't cost you a dime to accomplish -only some rather nasty credit dings & a possible notice of foreclosure on your credit history. All of which you can get over in a few years. Meanwhile your "lifetime" of obligations is over. Ended. Period. Don't make the mistake, for you, of buying a timeshare again. It isn't for you.

Just as a side note when the time is reached (and it can be months or even years from your first missed payment) that they go to the foreclosure process they MAY ask you to deed the ownership back (as you originally offered) to save the cost of the foreclosure process. That is VERY GOOD if it occurs (and it may not - they are not required to make that offer) as it means you are voluntarily giving up your ownership and it cannot be reported negatively as a foreclosure on your records. If it is offered take it!

So the bottom line is there is no reason to use a PCC or any other way to "get out" of a timeshare you cannot afford. Just leave it unpaid, put up with the calls, letters, etc demanding payment and eventually it will be gone. If you simply don't want the ownership anymore this is a credit risky way to do it - in that case you should follow the rules and find a real taker for your time & legally transfer it. If all you want is the convenience of "dumping" your week (you can afford it you just don't want to pay anymore) then the credit hits this method imposes may not be a good choice. For those people you need to do your part to find a buyer/taker and get it transferred to a new, paying owner.

But if you really cannot afford it anymore you are not "stuck". Just don't pay and eventually you will no longer own that which you cannot afford. No need to pay anyone to accomplish that. You are not "stuck for life" by any stretch of the truth. Good luck.

 

[timeos2]

I have no idea how many actually transfer the units out of their names. I hear a lot but it is rumor so I won't repeat it. The units that are sold on eBay are transferred. I am aware of a couple of resorts that are dealing with numerous units in different names that have not paid dues this year so I think this year will be the time that the resorts start to listen to what we have been trying to tell them for the past few years. Either come up with an exit plan or the PCC's will come up with one for you. That is what is happening right now. I would strongly recommend that the Owners contact their resort and beat on their doors with offers of paying a couple of year’s maintenance fees and take the deed back. If a person owes money they should ask why the resort or finance company won't do a short sale. They could contact their Senator or Congressman and ask why you can do a short sale with a house but not with a timeshare.

I am going to start really beating the drum for this simple fact. EVERY HOA / timeshare has an "out" for every owner. DON'T PAY your annual fees and eventually you will be foreclosed on thus ending your ownership without question and legally. No money from your pocket required - just the uncomfortable time when you will get letters/calls demanding payment which you blow off/ignore if you really want out. Eventually they will foreclose (or take the time back through voluntary deed back in lieu of fees due) and you are OUT. No cost except time & hassle. And its perfectly legal. There is an absolute out for every owner if they want to take it - and at NO COST.

Any other contrived "plan" will likely cost money and/or not even be legal. Why risk it when there is an absolutely certain & free way out in every case?

 

[timeos2]

I agree with you 100%. When a deed is recorded the proeprty is transferred.
I have looked at many of the convenants and have never seen one that states that a prospective purchaser must be approved before the transfer can happen. The first right of refusal is in the covenants and deed resrtrictions. Could they change their bylaws and incorporate this into the bylaws? Would they need the vote of all the Owners?

They cannot prevent the transfer if it is legally complete & correct. They could make changes to the CC&R's by owner vote to impose new restrictions on accepted transfer of ownership as recognized by the Association but that would require a vote & only apply to new owners after the effective date - existing owners would still have the ability to sell under the original rules as that is what they agreed to. It cannot be retro-active.

Interesting idea but likely not enforceable by simple act of the Board. Basic ownership rights cannot be changed by any Board/Association.

 

[timeos2]

I commend you for finding a way to unload your timeshare.......I used a transfer agency (transfer smart) where I paid an upfront fee to take over the deed on my timeshare, but it worked! and I am relieved! ......no more expenses for a property with maintenance fees that go up yearly. It cost me money up front but in the LONG RUN I am saving. GOOD JOB FOR FINDING A WAY TO UNLOAD YOUR UNWANTED TIMESHARE PROPERTY!

You may not be out despite what you think. More likely you wasted thousands to accomplish what you could have done for free. These companies, often called PCC (Post Card Companies) here are scams and if you use one you may find yourself out thousands, still the owner and in a mess of legal problems.

If you really can't afford it then just stop paying your fees. Cost you nothing out of pocket and eventually it will be foreclosed (no cost to you) and you are legally out. Not one red cent from your pocket.

So why did you PAY thousands for a questionable "out" when ou could have been legally removed as the owner for free? See if you can undo your "sale" and get you money back. You've wasted thousands.

 

[Ridewithme38]

A foreclosure isn't just a 'ding' to your credit!! Its a major swipe that can sometimes takes up to 15yrs to clear off...in that time frame, you won't be able to get ANY credit, not a credit card, car loan, Forget about renegotiating your mortgage for a lower fee, or renting an apartment

Foreclosure is ONE of the WORST financial situations that can happen to someone, Just SLIGHTLY below bankruptcy...

THAT IS NOT a way out!! For most people it's NOT an option!!


An HONEST PCC seems to be the only option...IF you are looking to get out of a TS, Call around the upfront fee companies, READ THE CONTRACTS! MAKE SURE they'll transfer the deed out of your name IMMEDIATELY...if they won't, call the next one...thats the great thing about there being so many of them...if you don't get the service you want you can just move one

 

[AwayWeGo]

Hornswoggles & Bamboozles "R" Us.

An HONEST PCC seems to be the only option.

Talk about a contradiction in terms !

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[timeos2]

An HONEST PCC seems to be the only option...IF you are looking to get out of a TS, Call around the upfront fee companies, READ THE CONTRACTS! MAKE SURE they'll transfer the deed out of your name IMMEDIATELY...if they won't, call the next one...thats the great thing about there being so many of them...if you don't get the service you want you can just move one

An "honest" PCC is an oxymoron. There are no such animals. Any one you deal with - "immediate" transfer of title or not - can return to bite you after you gave up thousands to "get out".

Yes, a foreclosure is a bad hit to credit. But a foreclosure for fees due isn't as bad as one for non-payment of purchase cost (as the dollars invloved are usually MUCH higher) plus, as I previously mentioned, often times you'll find the Association will decide to voluntarily accept the timeshare back if you agree when the time to start the actual & costly foreclosure is reached. IF they do that they cannot record a foreclosure to your record as they never actually did one. That is a risk worth taking & a MUCH better (and less costly) choice than any of the risky & usually scam based PCC's.

NEVER deal with an upfront fee company INCLUDING PCC! Never!

 

[Ridewithme38]

Talk about a contradiction in terms !

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Not at all! Granted..They're Greedy, but look at all the PCC's selling TS's on ebay and other sites...Have you had any issue with buying off of them? Seem pretty honest to me!

An "honest" PCC is an oxymoron. There are no such animals. Any one you deal with - "immediate" transfer of title or not - can return to bite you after you gave up thousands to "get out".

Yup this is why its so important to double and triple check that your name is off the Deed, but i'd hope you'd do this for a private sale too...Once your name is off the deed, there is NO legal issues that can bite you


Any DING to your credit IMO isn't worth the Hassle! You can get rid of a TS ALOT quicker and easier and NOT have your life wreaked by just contacted an honest PCC

 

[timeos2]

Not at all! Granted..They're Greedy, but look at all the PCC's selling TS's on ebay and other sites...Have you had any issue with buying off of them? Seem pretty honest to me!

If they were realy honest they'd admit that YOU could sell your timeshare for the same $1 they hope to on eBay or wherever. Instead they spend time & effort to fool the owner intothinking it's "unsellable" and they are "stuck for life", along with their kin, when none of it is true.

None of what they do is honest - trusting them is right up there with believing a timeshare sales person. And you already declared all of them dishonest so your PCC friends fall into the same pot.

NEVER deal with any upfront fee comapny & that includes PCC or "rescue" companies. NEVER.

 

[TUGBrian]

ah sorry, I accidentally edited your previous post in an attempt at a reply. there was nothing in it that needed to be removed...it was merely my mistake.

 

[TUGBrian]

however my reply to your quote of "60-70% of timeshares are unsellable" is:

just where do you obtain these figures?