I sold my timeshare!

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I dont think so either...however I do predict that more and more resorts will begin denying to change ownership on the title to certain organizations or other owners that dont pass the sniff test.

Unless the resort reserved that right in covenants and restrictions attached to the deed at the time when the timeshare was first sold, I don't see how the resort would have a legal basis to interfere in the sale and transfer of ownership of the property. Lacking such reservations of right, it seems to me that the resort management would lay themselves wide open for a claim of tortious interference with contract by the seller. The primary economic damages the seller could claim would be the continuing obligation to pay maintenance fees; i.e., the resort would end up being obligated to pay the maintenance fees.

Seems to me that this path is fraught with great peril (but quite different from the peril faced by Sir Galahad at the Castle Anthrax).

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

If the signs are there and if the process is well known (which is happening now) then ignorance of it may avoid criminal charges but would still leave them as legal owner with fees due. Plus the thousands paid to the scam is defacto proof they could afford to pay the fees! It's a loser all around - don't deal with any "relief" type outfit. To be safe. Use the many other, often cheaper and safer choices out there. They do exist - if not what did you think the PCC was going to do with it? Carrful if you answer wrong it could be criminal! Don't deal with any of them - period.

I think the Owner has to rely on what they are told at the presentation. They are told the unit will be transferred immediately. They are told it will be used in a travel club or etc etc etc.
I agree not to deal with them. But as the elderly couple that sat there last night and got sucked in I can see that this game will continue. The PCC's had six or seven presentations in Orlando area alone yesterday.
I think the owners should call a licensed timeshare broker or agent. At least they should get a straight story.

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

PCC and Upfront fees

Ok maybe i'm missing something...a PCC contacts a TS owners...says we found you a buyer for $xxxx amount we can sell your TS(Isn't this what they always say) you pay...they transfer your name off the TS deed....Your good to go...

Are PCC's actually telling owners that they're going to take the deeds and assign them all to a fake Corporation specifically for the purpose of closing it down and avoiding payments of MF's?

I don't know that i would even ask that much...as soon as my name is off the deed, i could care less what happens to the TS...and i'm sure millions of owners agree with me on this

Are you talking 'Conspiracy to Defraud'? Because that a REALLY hard thing to prove in court...

When a person is contacted and told the person has a buyer for their timeshare is a different scam. That is fraud. The State is doing a great job taking these people down. We document and report these people as often as we encounter them. Usually 2-3 a week.

The PCC's send a leading postcard to timeshare owners. Once they get them to the presentation they pour the kool aid. Once the Owner has the fear in them they sign the paperwork and pay the money and leave free. If they make sure the resort accepts the transfer they should feel good. They no longer own the timeshare. The PCC then proceeds to do whatever they do.

 

[Ridewithme38]

The PCC's send a leading postcard to timeshare owners. Once they get them to the presentation they pour the kool aid. Once the Owner has the fear in them they sign the paperwork and pay the money and leave free. If they make sure the resort accepts the transfer they should feel good. They no longer own the timeshare. The PCC then proceeds to do whatever they do.

This is my thought also...once the Deed is out of the owners name...the owner is free and clear...

Judi since you are in the industry...while the prices are rediculously high...what percentage of PCC's would you guess DO actually transfer the deed into a different name...vs others that don't do anything

I saw a thread about a PCC that seems to have 900 weeks for ONE resort in its name...so i'd think the percentage isn't that low

If someone needs to get out...like, right now...It might be good for Tug to put together a list of PCC's that will transsfer it almost immediatly

 

[DeniseM]

If someone needs to get out...like, right now...It might be good for Tug to put together a list of PCC's that will transsfer it almost immediatly

Ride - As soon as you have that info. organized, please forward it to me and I'd be glad to post it for you!

 

[ronparise]

If it was my intent to transfer my timeshare to an organization that I knew was going to not pay the fees (ie commit fraud) I would create my own company, transfer the deed and not pay. I wouldnt pay $3000 to have someone else do it for me

My point: the original owner is not part of the fraud


If I know I have a dog of a timeshare (a winter week on a New England Beach for example) and I put the thing on ebay, pay the fees for a year in advance, include a weeks vacation somewhere else in a good season. and sell it for a dollar. Am I as bad as the original developer? am I acting fradulantly by putting lipstick on a pig and selling it?

My answer is Yes

Heres what I think...If there are unit weeks in your resort that are truely worthless ;where paying the fees is throwing good money after bad; where the prime week owners expect the off season owners to subsidize them; The folks that are creating these shell companies are doing you a favor by bringing down the resort sooner rather than later.

Resorts like this will fail, its just a matter of time.

 

[Cmore]

...If I know I have a dog of a timeshare (a winter week on a New England Beach for example) and I put the thing on ebay, pay the fees for a year in advance, include a weeks vacation somewhere else in a good season. and sell it for a dollar. Am I as bad as the original developer? am I acting fradulantly by putting lipstick on a pig and selling it?

My answer is Yes ...
QUOTE]

Ron, while I agree with much of your point and many of your posts, I disagree with the above segment.

Certainly there are better properties to own than the one you mention as a "dog". Under your definition it is unsellable. There is nothing wrong with "putting lipstick on a pig" and its the buyers resposibility to know what they are buying. I certainly am not advocating lying or embellishing the record. But packaging things of value to move something is entirely appropriate. Would you ever clean up or paint a house before selling it, how about detailing a car - is that deceptive ? Or is it simply putting the best face on something so its attractive?

I think the later, and for the record I would never deceive what one could expect for trades, etc. But if I was selling a house, ( I am) I am certainly not going to make a list of every house in the surrounding 5 miles and tell prospective buyers which ones "I" feel may be a better buy than the one I am selling.

That is the only point I am trying to make, otherwise AGREED.

 

[TUGBrian]

Unless the resort reserved that right in covenants and restrictions attached to the deed at the time when the timeshare was first sold, I don't see how the resort would have a legal basis to interfere in the sale and transfer of ownership of the property. Lacking such reservations of right, it seems to me that the resort management would lay themselves wide open for a claim of tortious interference with contract by the seller. The primary economic damages the seller could claim would be the continuing obligation to pay maintenance fees; i.e., the resort would end up being obligated to pay the maintenance fees.

Seems to me that this path is fraught with great peril (but quite different from the peril faced by Sir Galahad at the Castle Anthrax).

not a lawyer by any means, but I know for a fact many resorts are doing just this. (ie refusing transfers to known "entities" that have proven to be non payers)

guess its the lesser of two evils...

 

[ronparise]

cmore

Im a real estate agent. Im always suggesting that my sellers "dress up" their property before a sale, but I dont advise (for example) a fresh coat of paint to cover up the termite damage.

What Im saying is that there are timeshare weeks (a lot of them) that are worth less than nothing and that to offer them for sale at any price even a dollar, is to expect "greater fool" theory to be working for you. and to do so knowingly is fraudulant

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

not a lawyer by any means, but I know for a fact many resorts are doing just this. (ie refusing transfers to known "entities" that have proven to be non payers)

guess its the lesser of two evils...

I suspect they are not refusing the transfer in ownership, but they are refusing to recognize the transfer of title in their ownership records. That creates a legal limbo.

Assuming that the maintenance fees are current and the transfer fees are taken care of, I would think resorts with deeded weeks might be on shaky ground because they are denying someone the right to use their property. Legally that strikes me as the equivalent of being a squatter on someone's property.

 

[DeniseM]

cmore

Im a real estate agent. Im always suggesting that my sellers "dress up" their property before a sale, but I dont advise (for example) a fresh coat of paint to cover up the termite damage.

What Im saying is that there are timeshare weeks (a lot of them) that are worth less than nothing and that to offer them for sale at any price even a dollar, is to expect "greater fool" theory to be working for you. and to do so knowingly is fraudulant

I own 7 timeshares - 6 of them sell for $1 on ebay. However, I use them for great vacations, or trades, or make money on all of them, and I would not give away any of them. Just because a timeshare is selling for $1, doesn't mean it is without value. Outside of TUG, most people simply do not know, or care to learn, how to make their timeshares work for them.

 

[Cmore]

Ron,
I certainly respect your ethics and generally agree with your point. However, like DeniseM stated the ultimate value is with the end user. So while you or I may consider something "worthless" for our purposes, it doesn't mean that a particular timeshare has no value whatsoever to someone else.

I also agree that one should not inflate the realistic trade value, etc. when selling such an item. I am curious how one would sell/get rid of a "worthless" timeshare using your standards for appropriate ethics.

Is someone just supposed to pay the MF's forever, since they made a TS acquistion meets the definition of "worthless" ?

 

[Ridewithme38]

Ron,
I certainly respect your ethics and generally agree with your point. However, like DeniseM stated the ultimate value is with the end user. So while you or I may consider something "worthless" for our purposes, it doesn't mean that a particular timeshare has no value whatsoever to someone else.

I also agree that one should not inflate the realistic trade value, etc. when selling such an item. I am curious how one would sell/get rid of a "worthless" timeshare using your standards for appropriate ethics.

Is someone just supposed to pay the MF's forever, since they made a TS acquistion meets the definition of "worthless" ?

This is the main scam in TS ownership...Currently the only way to get rid of a worthless TS, of which, if you check EBAY ANY day you'll see there are thousands, is through a PCC

 

[Cmore]

This is the main scam in TS ownership...Currently the only way to get rid of a worthless TS, of which, if you check EBAY ANY day you'll see there are thousands, is through a PCC

I understand this point, and agree with Ron that knowingly selling a TS to a source that will not pay the fee's is really an act of fraud, assuming you are able to get it out of your name. If you in good faith sell it to someone or a company,they transfer the deed, then default, I don't see how that could be considered your responsibility.

It's an interesting question, and one that forces you to look at yourself in the mirror and say what am I willing to do to sell this item. Many of us would look for an "ethical" way to move the item. But, then its a matter of defining "what is ethical ?"

In these recent posts, we were just having a minor disagreement on what would be considered "fair game" in trying to move a property of minimal value, not the PCC issue.

 

[Ridewithme38]

I understand this point, and agree with Ron that knowingly selling a TS to a source that will not pay the fee's is really an act of fraud, assuming you are able to get it out of your name. If you in good faith sell it to someone or a company,they transfer the deed, then default, I don't see how that could be considered your responsibility.

It's an interesting question, and one that forces you to look at yourself in the mirror and say what am I willing to do to sell this item. Many of us would look for an "ethical" way to move the item. But, then its a matter of defining "what is ethical ?"

In these recent posts, we were just having a minor disagreement on what would be considered "fair game" in trying to move a property of minimal value, not the PCC issue.

The PCC maybe the ONLY ethical way...No matter how you move it your pawning off the costs of a worthless timeshare onto someone else...the question is, is it more ethical to transfer that lifetime debt and suffering to a single person with no knowledge of what they are getting into(No one with TS knowledge is going to buy a Worthless week) or do you transfer it to a PCC who will eventually dump it and that deed will end up back in the hands of the BOD/HOA who are the reason that week became worthless in the first place(unit resort ammenities not up to par)

to me its an easy answer...The BOD/HOA is an extension of the Developers/sales staff, they felt no guilt or moral twang when they sold it to you...deeding it back to them seem like the only moral thing to do...I'd never look at it as 'knowingly deeding it to someone who won't pay the MF' i see it as deeding back to the Resort...By Proxy

 

[DeniseM]

The PCC maybe the ONLY ethical way...No matter how you move it your pawning off the costs of a worthless timeshare onto someone else...the question is, is it more ethical to transfer that lifetime debt and suffering to a single person with no knowledge of what they are getting into(No one with TS knowledge is going to buy a Worthless week) or do you transfer it to a PCC who will eventually dump it and that deed will end up back in the hands of the BOD/HOA who are the reason that week became worthless in the first place(unit resort ammenities not up to par)

This is just not true - I have happily accepted 2 "worthless" weeks that I'm very happy to have. There are very few weeks that are truely have no value - but there are a LOT of owners who don't have a clue how to get value out of what they own.

 

[Ridewithme38]

This is just not true - I have happily accepted 2 "worthless" weeks that I'm very happy to have. There are very few weeks that are truely have no value - but there are a LOT of owners who don't have a clue how to get value out of what they own.

I may have to disagree & Agree with you at the same time...I'm going to say 60-75% of all weeks are completely and utterly worthless, TO THE AVERAGE PERSON

Sure one in 10,000 people have flexible work schedules, no kids, are retired AND have the ability and brains to research all the in's and out's of the timeshare systems they are buying into....But of those 1 in 10,000 most will never buy a timeshare....so what we need to do is look at the 'average' person, between 35-50yrs old, 2-3 kids, both parents have full time jobs, making about 75k a year combined and paying 25k of that on a mortgage...

You see the Average person can really only use week 24-35(and one or two shoulder weeks) because of the kids schedules, they need to purchase within driving distance of their homes(Flying is cost prohibitive) and having the time and energy at the end of the day to spend hours upon hours studying this stuff, just isn't possible

Really 60-75% being completely worthless is a generous estimate

 

[AwayWeGo]

Au Contraire, Mon Frère.

The BOD/HOA is an extension of the Developers/sales staff, they felt no guilt or moral twang when they sold it to you.

Once the resort is sold out & the timeshare company representatives are voted off the HOA-BOD, then the timeshare company is no longer in control.

At that point, the regular walking-around owners are calling the shots, through their independent, non-company HOA-BOD.

Once the timeshare company is out of the driver's seat, then stiffing the timeshare resort means stiffing your fellow owners, not some faceless company suits.

Even when the timeshare company remains in control, their resort operation function is legally & organizationally separate from their high-pressure sales function. When you bail on fee payments, the timeshare company does not cover the shortfall caused by your nonpayment -- i.e., you're still stiffing your fellow timeshare owners at the resort.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

PCC

The PCC maybe the ONLY ethical way...No matter how you move it your pawning off the costs of a worthless timeshare onto someone else...the question is, is it more ethical to transfer that lifetime debt and suffering to a single person with no knowledge of what they are getting into(No one with TS knowledge is going to buy a Worthless week) or do you transfer it to a PCC who will eventually dump it and that deed will end up back in the hands of the BOD/HOA who are the reason that week became worthless in the first place(unit resort ammenities not up to par)

to me its an easy answer...The BOD/HOA is an extension of the Developers/sales staff, they felt no guilt or moral twang when they sold it to you...deeding it back to them seem like the only moral thing to do...I'd never look at it as 'knowingly deeding it to someone who won't pay the MF' i see it as deeding back to the Resort...By Proxy

So wouldn't it be easier if the Resort set up a program to help these people instead of them putting out the money to sell it to a "Viking Ship" and then the resort getting it back. The resort could rent the weeks out. Lots of things the resort could do if they took the week back immediately with some funds from the Owner. Maybe they could perk up the resort ammenities.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Once the resort is sold out & the timeshare company representatives are voted off the HOA-BOD, then the timeshare company is no longer in control.

At that point, the regular walking-around owners are calling the shots, through their independent, non-company HOA-BOD.

Once the timeshare company is out of the driver's seat, then stiffing the timeshare resort means stiffing your fellow owners, not some faceless company suits.

Even when the timeshare company remains in control, their resort operation function is legally & organizationally separate from their high-pressure sales function. When you bail on fee payments, the timeshare company does not cover the shortfall caused by your nonpayment -- i.e., you're still stiffing your fellow timeshare owners at the resort.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Those 'fellow owners' from a few threads i've read on here, seem to have better perks then some of the 'faceless company suits' i've meet, thousands for dinners, thousands for hotel stays....company suit, or an owner wearing a suit with the companies name on it...its all the same to me

 

[Ridewithme38]

So wouldn't it be easier if the Resort set up a program to help these people instead of them putting out the money to sell it to a "Viking Ship" and then the resort getting it back. The resort could rent the weeks out. Lots of things the resort could do if they took the week back immediately with some funds from the Owner. Maybe they could perk up the resort ammenities.

i agree? Ideally you should be able to deed back to the resort, instead of the HOA...re-enter the week into a full sales model...but then a TS would never end up out of sales...and you'd have to deal with those weasels MORE often...How does it work with a Right-To-Use model?

 

[timeos2]

There IS an ultimate out for every owner - but it may talke time.

i agree? Ideally you should be able to deed back to the resort, instead of the HOA...re-enter the week into a full sales model...but then a TS would never end up out of sales...and you'd have to deal with those weasels MORE often...How does it work with a Right-To-Use model?

No one is stuck forever with any timeshare ownership as, in the end, it should be foreclosed on. That would end up cheaper than the "rescue companies" charge and by letting the process work as designed the old owner has to suffer whatever credit hit there may be as well as the wait until it is transferred out of their name. On the Association side the paying owners have no complaint (legally) as the Association has no choice but to foreclose & deal with the then unsold week.

They (the owners) WOULD have a case against the Board / Association if they just accepted deeds back whenever an owner tired of it or felt it a burden. They did not agree to that and forcing them to pay while relieving the delinquent owner of all responsibility - is neither right or legally defensible. Only if a majority of owners voted for or asked for that policy to be put in place would a Board / Association have a chance of surviving a legal challenge.

So there is no need for any PCC to take intervals as, eventually, if the current owner doesn't pay, there will be an "out" for them when the interval is foreclosed on and the past due fees & that foreclosure is properly noted on their credit records. Still it is a way out, entirely legal and available to every owner equally.

In no way are you "stuck forever" as the PCC try to say & some here incorrectly support as fact.

 

[millar_c]

Congratulations, Linda Lee

Dear Linda Lee,
Your note was a breath of fresh air to us as we too have been trying to "get rid" of our time share in Hawaii. Don't count on Wyndham to help you with this. We just returned from a Wyndham time share that we stayed at for one time points we bought. We went to the "sales pitch" just to ask how to get rid of the place. The man was not interested in our problem but rather wanted us to buy points for $18,000. Was he crazy or what! We are not on a points system no do we intend to be.
We have already asked our children if they want to inherit our timeshare and they all said "no way!"
So just wanted to let you know we appreciate the time you took to share your good news!

 

[atrtmr]

Im not sure how you can both be on the side of "helping owners financially"...and also "walking away from obligations"

these are two fundamentally opposite stances, as the latter does nothing but directly hurt owners.

Bought TS 10 years ago - was really talked into something that we knew nothing about. Last year spouse lost job, really just scrapping the bottom of the barrell to stay afloat. How can we get out our our TS without alosing anymore money?

 

[equitax]

Well Said Denise! Perception is Reality

Regardless of the fact that you get a "deed" with a timeshare, let's make something completely clear - even though you own a piece of a resort, the likelihood of its value ever increasing from the developer's original selling price approaches zero. This makes it the complete opposite of "normal" real estate which over time is expected to, at bear minimum, keep up with inflation.

When someone sells a timeshare for a dollar (or to go even further pays someone to take it from them) this is because their perspective has changed. They know longer get the enjoyment they want, but instead have a perpetual expense that they want to divest from.

As DeniseM has pointed out, she makes her "worth 1$ timeshares" work for her - and has obviously dedicated a lot of time to timesharing - If she hated it, we would be down a moderator I suppose.

I bought a MGV 3 BDR PLAT resale week for 7000$ (i.e. not a dollar) - I've made it work for me, because I have already confirmed 2 2 BDR flextrade stays in Aruba, which I would have (have done it in the past and don't regret doing it) paid marriott close to $400 a night for, and I have also traded my 2012 studio part for a 3BDR in 2011 wk51 (again - a trip I would have paid for because that is where I want to go.) - So by own calculations, my TS has already been paid for and owes me nothing. So long as I can continue to travel during flexchange (which will probably be for a long time), and so long as Orlando is is within driving distance for my sister + family (6 total), the TS will be used, and will render value to me.

My personal view is that many of the issues that plague using-owners can be traced back to the developer.

The developer sets up the resort, then the HOA (stacked with the interests of the developer in mind, foremost). The developer then sells interests to anyone who can come up with the down payment, and floats the paper for 12.99%, and when the mortgage payments stop coming in, they foreclose on the interest, and when they do end up with the writ of possession, the developer is exempted from paying the maintenance fees and taxes owed. Sweet deal for the developer. The bad loans also help ensure that the developer will never lose control of the board either.

Regardless of what anyone else here believes, ROFR could be exercised by the developer in a prudent manner in order to prevent someone from ending up with 900 units and not pay the fees. The condo association by-laws *should" have been set up originally to make any new owner *acceptable* to the condo association - a 29$ credit check would help a lot, yet this is not in developer's interest, as then maybe some of those muscled into the 30K purchase at the resort would have the HOA decline them because of a low FICO score, and the associated default risk.

What is owed to the HOA (MF and property taxes) should rank higher than the first mortgage, ALWAYS, not only when the mortgage is held by a party other than the developer.

The day will come too when my MGV TS will trade for less than a buck, but until them I am happy with it!

I own 7 timeshares - 6 of them sell for $1 on ebay. However, I use them for great vacations, or trades, or make money on all of them, and I would not give away any of them. Just because a timeshare is selling for $1, doesn't mean it is without value. Outside of TUG, most people simply do not know, or care to learn, how to make their timeshares work for them.