How Would You Design the MVC/Vistana Integration?

[SueDonJ]

At the outset there was massive confusion surrounding the DC, and that's entirely Marriott's fault because of the way it was dropped. After years of speculation fueled by rampant rumors and warnings among the sales staff, shortly after midnight on Sunday, 6/20/10, the owners' website changed to include a blurb about "Introducing a new and exciting option!" or some other such simple nonsense, extremely limited information pertaining to our individual ownerships, and the links to all the governing docs. We were left to fend for ourselves and almost immediately the outcry about skim began. Except many, MANY, thought that enrollment in the DC meant surrendering your Week permanently for DC Points, so OF COURSE people were ticked off thinking that the allotted number of DC Points would in many cases mean you couldn't book the Week you owned if you enrolled it. How could anyone NOT be ticked off if that were the case?!?! Believe us when we tell you, it took the first couple YEARS to push back against that misperception - once the outcry started it just steamrolled and no doubt that initial negative reaction persists. I don't doubt that there are still some who might believe it.

Now it's generally understood that the skim is a matter to consider because even if after enrollment you can book the Week you own as you always could, there still can be some loss of exchange value when converting a Week to DC Points. The comparison must be made to the exchange value that a particular Week had historically gotten from using II - if you were used to getting uptrades from II (a 2BR for a 1BR, a newer/higher-demand resort for an older, etc) then it's likely you'll get less exchange value from the DC. For those of us who were used to getting less from II, though, the DC is an improvement. For example my non-lockoff 3BR SurfWatch weeks hadn't ever exchanged for 3BR's in II because 3BR's are rare in II, but with the DC it's possible to get 3BR's OR 2BR's with a balance of DC Points remaining. It wasn't until everyone griped about the DC that I realized there was a word for what II was shorting me - and that word is skim.

The other thing about the DC skim is that it impacts like-for-like as far as unit sizes - in II there is at least a chance of getting a 2BR highest-demand Hawaii Week with a 2BR lowest-demand Florida Week. In the DC that's pretty much impossible unless your Week is highest-season/best view and you use its DC Points for a lower-season/least view exchange. This matters to some and not so much to others, because in II there are no guarantees for unit views anyway.

So the skim is definitely a factor, no doubt. But it's not a factor that impacts every owner the same which is why it's important to understand how your particular ownership will be impacted, rather than following the herd mentality and immediately glomming onto the worst prevailing suppositions.

 

[Steve Fatula]

The so called skim is a factor only if you enroll and elect for points, an optional activity. Therefore in my eyes, not a factor! My example stands, I get 18 1BR nights on points in my own resort in my own season vs 7 1BR nights and 7 studio nights. Admittedly, this is within 60 days (which I 100% have always succeeded at ) and 5 night stays, but points are not weeks, there is no need to always compare them to 7 nights. This is the way I use points, I never ever get a 7 night stay, it's either 12 or 5. So, to say the skim is always a negative is simply untrue. Those who love to say so are always comparing a week vs 7 nights in the worst example resort. It's not the only way to use points! I have never, as in not once since the DC program originated, experienced a negative effect due to this "skim". If I did, I made a wrong choice! And of course we have the other benefits of enrollment, but not even speaking of those. I will even put those aside for comparison.

Susan has been a defender over time against the misinformation of the DC program. I see it differently for the reasons above, but, mostly I agree with her. The point of this is a statement was made that perhaps everyone will be happy with whatever integration comes. This is an example of why that is impossible! There are so many ways to use timeshares that someone will always feel as if they lost. It's 10 years later and people are still upset.

I'll add an addendum.... The difference with the II skim is that they used to be non Marriott company. So, you couldn't blame Marriott for that. But now you can!

 

[bazzap]

The so called skim is a factor only if you enroll and elect for points, an optional activity. Therefore in my eyes, not a factor! My example stands, I get 18 1BR nights on points in my own resort in my own season vs 7 1BR nights and 7 studio nights. Admittedly, this is within 60 days (which I 100% have always succeeded at ) and 5 night stays, but points are not weeks, there is no need to always compare them to 7 nights. This is the way I use points, I never ever get a 7 night stay, it's either 12 or 5. So, to say the skim is always a negative is simply untrue. Those who love to say so are always comparing a week vs 7 nights in the worst example resort. It's not the only way to use points! I have never, as it not once since the DC program originated, experienced a negative effect due to this "skim". If I did, I made a wrong choice! And of course we have the other benefits of enrollment, but not even speaking of those. I will even put those aside for comparison.

Susan has been a defender over time against the misinformation of the DC program. I see it differently for the reasons above, but, mostly I agree with her. The point of this is a statement was made that perhaps everyone will be happy with whatever integration comes. This is an example of why that is impossible! There are so many ways to use timeshares that someone will always feel as if they lost. It's 10 years later and people are still upset.

I'll add an addendum.... The difference with the II skim is that they used to be non Marriott company. So, you couldn't blame Marriott for that. But now you can!

At the end of the day, we all have to use our MVC ownership in the way which best suits us.
We mostly use our weeks for home resort stays, locking off where we can to get 2 weeks for 1.
Sometimes we lock off and use Interval exchange to get 2 weeks for 1 to stay at other MVC resorts.
Where our enrolled weeks have relatively poor points allocation, if we are not staying at our home resort, we use
Interval exchange to stay at other MVC resorts.
Where our enrolled weeks have good points allocation, if we are not staying at our home resort, we elect and use DC points to stay at other MVC resorts maximising the cheaper Sunday to Thursday nights wherever possible.

 

[DeniseM]

This makes my brain hurt - let me know when it's done.

 

[GregT]

How did this become a skimming thread?

Skimming stinks -- I hated it then and still do. As Steve Fatula has indicated, I rarely redeem my 3BR OF weeks for points.

But I'm smart enough to see the value of using points, so together with @StevenTing, we created the marketplace where you can rent points from others. If Marriott hadn't skimmed me so much for my prime 3BR OF weeks in Maui (14%!), maybe it would have taken longer for the rental market to get established? On the positive side, Marriott didn't need to give us the ability to transfer points -- that's a huge benefit of the system.

So for me, skim bad, transfer good. I accept that skimming is part of the system that Marriott chose. Others don't mind it, good for them. But I don't like being given $0.86 for my dollar. I don't agree with the rationalization that I can still do alot with my $0.86 -- yes any point system allows me to do alot -- but if I can do alot with $0.86, think how much I could do with a buck?

Sometimes I think what we like so much comes with the basic features of a point system.

And as with any point system, we are no longer required to make 7 day reservations like in a week system.

As with any point system, it is really good to get reduced point requirements for Sun-Thurs nights.

As with any point system, it is really good to be able to pay more points and get better views.

It's just a point system. What's different about it from others are:

1) Skim
2) Ability to transfer points
3) Ability to book one night reservations (especially at 13 months out)

I love #2 and #3, which is why I enrolled (and with Steven, helped to bring the point rental market to Marriott owners). I like that we have spent 10 years working to maximize the system and I think that is the most productive use of our time.

Best,

Greg

 

[Steve Fatula]

Except, you conveniently ignore trading the 3BR week you have definitely has skim in II. You will almost certainly not get a 3BR, and that IS skim. I do not agree at all you are getting 86 cents for a dollar. I already showed why that's not the case but it does depend how you use it so it can go either way, There are certainly many examples of how you can get less for sure, but that merely means you used it wrong, just as with II. I think you are thinking about it wrong. Send me a DM and we can discuss out if this thread if you wish,

 

[GregT]

Back to the original question posted by the OP......I have put comments in red in the OP's original message, and I enjoy speculating on these things!!!

I made a couple of assumptions (which you may disagree with) of the future integration.

• MVC wants a common currency that will generate the most profit. Destination Points (DP) seem to be the optimal profit generator. I agree with you -- I believe DPs will be the skeleton key that crosses all systems
• MVC’s best potential new customers are its existing DP owners. Current Vistana owners are probably next on the list. Again, I agree with you, I think existing DP owners are its top targets -- primarily people who have purchased a starter package of points and realized that they need more to effectively utilize the system. Marriott owners have been mined now for 10 years to add a points package, so Vistana owners are the next group up.
• Marriott would be able to sell the most DPs by offering current MVC owners access to the Vistana resorts. I see less value in selling the Vistana portfolio to MVC owners. We can already access Kauai, Maui, US Virgin Islands, and ski properties. We can't access Mexico, which is a great addition, but I don't think MVC owners will buy more points for this reason. Therefore I think the best target remains Vistana owners who can now access Aruba, Oahu, Big Island, plus the other broader network that Marriott has. The breadth of Marriott's system is a great selling point.
• The inventory that Marriott would be able to offer DP owners would come from unsold and repurchased “ROFR” Vistana inventory. (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t believe that Marriott/Vistana would be able to offer any of the inventory that is currently reserved using StarOptions.) I agree that Marriott needs to not mess with the inventory currently available for StarOptions reservations. Marriott will need to acquire Vistana inventory to be available to it's Exchange, and that is the most important unknown component of the new system (IMO)
• However, most of the inventory that Marriott/Vistana would likely offer would have to come from Vistana Owners enrolling their weeks in the new integrated system. Yes, it is for this reason that I believe all Vistana owners (as of an unspecified date) will have the opportunity to enroll their weeks in the new system and redeem them for Elected Points.

I believe the best system for integration is the simplest system. If I were in charge of the integration I would make DPs the common currency between the two systems. This can be easily achieved by allowing Vistana owners to enroll their weeks in the MVC program. Vistana owners would be required to pay a small fee. MVC wants Vistana weeks enrolled in this combined program. The more Vistana weeks enrolled in this new system, the easier it will be for MVC salespeople to sell more DPs because there will be greater availability of premium weeks. Salespeople will tout access to Westin Hawaii, St. Johns, Mexico resorts, etc. I agree with you.

Questions:

• Will Marriott allow the enrollment of resale Vistana weeks? I believe that they will, and that the big winners will be the resale owners of voluntary properties that currently do not have the benefit of StarOptions. I believe they will have to pay a higher fee than mandatory owners, but that Marriott will see the value of having these weeks participate in the Exchange
• 
  
• I believe Marriott would be wise to allow enrollment of resale weeks. Resale owners are a significant number of the overall owners of Vistana timeshares. Marriott would increase its available inventory. Marriott would “earn” a substantial amount of money by charging Vistana owners a fee to enroll each week. Agreed
• 
  
• The argument against Marriott allowing resale weeks in the Integrated Program is that Marriott, rather than allow resale owners to enroll weeks for a nominal fee, can require resale owners to make a substantial new purchase (Destination Points) to participate in the Integrated Program. That is the other variant -- is that a points purchase is required to enroll a resale ownership -- I think that will come after an initial period where all resale owners are allowed to enroll their weeks.
• 
  
• Will Marriott allow the enrollment of resale Marriott weeks? I also believe there will be another amnesty program where Marriott will allow resale Marriott weeks to be enrolled for a hefty fee ($5K - 10K?) There are alot of prime weeks out there that would be useful to be within the Marriott program and I believe Marriott will find a way to get those weeks enrolled -- for a stiff fee. Platinum weeks and high quality Gold week owners may consider this.
• 
  
• Marriott could make money by enrolling Marriott resale weeks that have not been enrolled. Marriott last offered open enrollment in 2010 (ten years ago). Marriott may feel it is beneficial to increase inventory without having to exercise ROFR and earn enrollment fees. Agreed
• 
  
• The argument against Marriott allowing enrollment of Marriott resale weeks is that Marriott may want to continue the current system of requiring resale owners to purchase Destination Points in order to enroll a week. (I believe Marriott offers this option occasionally as a “special”.) I would believe that most people who would buy DPs to enroll a week have already done so. TUGgers have worked the system pretty well -- Dean bought a nice 3BR Aruba Surf Club week to enroll a bunch of weeks. Others have done this with fractionals at Grand Residence properties. But I've not yet found a promotion that is attractive to me to enroll a ton of valuable weeks (which I would likely never redeem anyway).
• 
  
• Will the new Integration Program eliminate or vastly reduce the usefulness of the StarOptions program? I believe Marriott is very very good at respecting the rights and privileges of existing owners and I do not believe that they will dilute the StarOptions program. I believe there will be a natural transition of inventory that used to be available for StarOptions reservations in the Marriott Exchange, but the Demand will also change as the owners of those weeks stop making StarOption reservations and start making Marriott reservations. And I don't believe the Supply will decrease so much that the uber planners that are TUGgers won't be able to make their reservation with our atomic clocks, 8 months out.
• 
  

The reason that I am not waiting for the program to be announced before making a purchase is because I believe Marriott will set a retroactive date for weeks that are eligible to be enrolled (Marriott set a retroactive date in 2010 for enrollment of Marriott weeks into the DP Program). I purchased a resale Vistana week (Sheraton Desert Oasis) because I believe there will be a date whereby Vistana weeks can be enrolled and I wanted to before that date. I bought right at the merger announcement but before it was officially closed. If I can enroll the SDO (without having to buy DPs) then I think I will get about 2,500 DPs for it. It's a Gold Plus 1-52 and I've looked at the redemption value of Canyon Villas, which is a similar property, to estimate that number of points. If I'm wrong and I can't enroll it, I will continue to use it for personal use (Spring Training).

I think if there is a Vistana week that you would use for personal trips and aren't dependent on ability to enroll it, I would buy it. If it's mandatory, I still think you will be able to use StarOptions.



What do you think? How would you set up an integrated program?

1) I would allow all Vistana owners to enroll their weeks and received Marriott DC points. Resale owners have to pay a higher fee than direct purchasers.

2) Vistana properties will have a DC point value that allows MVC owners to book through the exchange.

3) Both Trust Points and Elected Points can book the Vistana properties.

4) This creates a value proposition, where certain weeks can be booked more "cheaply" with StarOptions than with DC points. Like Maui. But only a subset of the Vistana owners can benefit from that arbitrage

5) Marriott will likely offer buyback programs for Vistana weeks, ROFR what can be ROFR'd, and do what they can do deposit Vistana weeks into the Trust.

6) There are a billion different Flex programs in Vistana (Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, Aventuras, the St. John one, etc). I'm sure this is one of the biggest headaches for the integration. I would think that Westin and Sheraton Flex can be merged into the Trust, but Mexico and St. John may be orphans. Marriott is very good at not disenfranchising customers, so I would think whatever the new system is would protect the usage rights and experiences of those owners.

7) I think VSN will remain intact for the foreseeable future, and like II trading, will remain a viable usage for Vistana owners. There was much consternation about II trading drying up when DC was introduced, but the experience has proven that is still viable. It's different, but still productive.

Whatever the new system, I'm confident TUGgers will study it and figure out how to best utilize it. Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg

 

[GregT]

Except, you conveniently ignore trading the 3BR week you have definitely has skim in II. You will almost certainly not get a 3BR, and that IS skim. I do not agree at all you are getting 86 cents for a dollar. I already showed why that's not the case but it does depend how you use it so it can go either way, There are certainly many examples of how you can get less for sure, but that merely means you used it wrong, just as with II. I think you are thinking about it wrong. Send me a DM and we can discuss out if this thread if you wish,

No, I do not conveniently ignore that II also skims. I just don't deposit the weeks into II, same reason as I do not redeem them for points. There are better alternatives, if not being personally used.

I think we can both agree that skimming is part of the system design, and because of that, there are certain weeks (like mine) that will never be a part of either II or the DC Exchange. There are others (like Sue's) that can now be a part of the DC exchange, but would never have been deposited into II. That's just the way it is and I've learned how to make the most of the system that exists today.

Best,

Greg

 

[FamilyEsq]

Hey Greg,

Thanks for the analysis. That is exactly what I was looking for. For me, it comes down to the next purchase. Marriot trader, Vistana voluntary (cheap) or Vistana mandatory. I love game playing hypotheticals.

FE

 

[Tommyhob]

I realize this is a somewhat unrelated question, but I have not been to a presentation recently and haven't heard much discussed lately about MVCI/Vistana being able to reserve each other's inventory. It's coming up on 2 years into the merger, I guess I somewhat expected to hear about a plan at some point. I own MVCI points and would love to use these on Vistana timeshare properties.

Has anyone heard anything new?
Thanks.

 

[JIMinNC]

I realize this is a somewhat unrelated question, but I have not been to a presentation recently and haven't heard much discussed lately about MVCI/Vistana being able to reserve each other's inventory. It's coming up on 2 years into the merger, I guess I somewhat expected to hear about a plan at some point. I own MVCI points and would love to use these on Vistana timeshare properties.

Has anyone heard anything new?
Thanks.

The last concrete info was from Marriott Vacations Worldwide's Investor Day presentation to Wall Street back in October. Then they disclosed a "common points currency" between the legacy MVC and Vistana properties would be announced in the "second half of 2020". No one knows how the current COVID-19 situation will impact that timing.

 

[WYOCOWBOY]

I am a Vistana owner, 44k points, which can get me a 1-bedroom in Gold weeks, Hawaii needs more points. And I just got done with a Zoom owner update with my representative in Westin's Lagunamar in Cancun. I was told that my 44k points will not get me into a Marriott when the catalog is combined together. She says I need 67,100 points just for an efficiency unit. And to get into a one-bedroom, I need 81,000. No show and tell of the new catalog was given, showed the MVC catalog with the points you MVC know. to get the 37K more points I need to pay $6,346. A new maintenance fee - old was $593/yr for my Odd year 1 bedroom, to $748/yr every other year ownership. The presentation also mentioned that MVC is better than Vistana units and that is why we have to buy more reserve within the Marriots combined catalog. Had several options thrown at me to consider during the zoom call yesterday. I have not even used my StarOptions yet and already I am being told they are not good enough for Marriott.

Now what I read here is most think MVC method will be used to run the internal reservation process.

So, during the presentation, I was told that when I want to pick a Marriott resort, I call ii and tell them what I am doing, and ii will then tell me I don't have enough points to get into a 1-bedroom Marriott Resort, anywhere/anytime. If I had the points, no exchange fee. And I believe this is the short time fix due to the complications of combining the computer systems to allow on-line booking. I called ii this morning to ask about my StarOptions being used to make a reservation for a Marriott, they don't know anything about that, I can do an exchange with ii for $154 and unit upgrade fee if needed. my non-Vistana unit exchange is $209

Ok, do remember it was an owner update to sell me points to use Marriott, but it can't all of been stretched too far, could it?

 

[SandyPGravel]

I am a Vistana owner, 44k points, which can get me a 1-bedroom in Gold weeks, Hawaii needs more points. And I just got done with a Zoom owner update with my representative in Westin's Lagunamar in Cancun. I was told that my 44k points will not get me into a Marriott when the catalog is combined together. She says I need 67,100 points just for an efficiency unit. And to get into a one-bedroom, I need 81,000. No show and tell of the new catalog was given, showed the MVC catalog with the points you MVC know. to get the 37K more points I need to pay $6,346. A new maintenance fee - old was $593/yr for my Odd year 1 bedroom, to $748/yr every other year ownership. The presentation also mentioned that MVC is better than Vistana units and that is why we have to buy more reserve within the Marriots combined catalog. Had several options thrown at me to consider during the zoom call yesterday. I have not even used my StarOptions yet and already I am being told they are not good enough for Marriott.

Now what I read here is most think MVC method will be used to run the internal reservation process.

So, during the presentation, I was told that when I want to pick a Marriott resort, I call ii and tell them what I am doing, and ii will then tell me I don't have enough points to get into a 1-bedroom Marriott Resort, anywhere/anytime. If I had the points, no exchange fee. And I believe this is the short time fix due to the complications of combining the computer systems to allow on-line booking. I called ii this morning to ask about my StarOptions being used to make a reservation for a Marriott, they don't know anything about that, I can do an exchange with ii for $154 and unit upgrade fee if needed. my non-Vistana unit exchange is $209

Ok, do remember it was an owner update to sell me points to use Marriott, but it can't all of been stretched too far, could it?

Well you were told a slightly different version than I was told. I was told that 81000 SO wouldn't be enough I would need 148,000. (But that might have been in reference to a 2 BR unit. I can't remember. My meeting was March 3rd I think.) I don't remember being told I would call II, I remember him saying I would contact Marriot Reservations. But, like I mentioned this was in early March.

 

[jabberwocky]

It will depend on the resort location and season - but you can pull Marriott inventory via II for 44k or less.

October in Orlando will cost 44k and will get you a 1BR Marriott Grande Vista. Studio would be 37k.

 

[hangloose]

Keep it simple!

While I love my 5 MVC weeks, their varied status (some enrolled, some not) is hard to keep track of in MVCs current system (weeks & DC Pts) especially when you add in banking pts, holding pts, a variety of key dates associated to booking/banking/exchanging, II exchanges

I enjoy having the flexibility of all options, but wish it was an easier system to manage now for multi week owners.

My fear of a MVC / Vistana combined program is that it will be even more complex. I also fear that it will be harder to reserve ownership for high demand properties/weeks....like Maui OF in whale season.

 

[elked12]

when is whale season in Maui? I know it’s in feb some time but not sure how long it stretches. Thank you

 

[hangloose]

when is whale season in Maui? I know it’s in feb some time but not sure how long it stretches. Thank you

Prime whaling season in Maui is Jan - March with a few weeks on each end.

 

[vistana101]

Oy, anyone else get a little tired of all the booking rules and regulations? Sometimes it feels so refreshing to book a simple hotel room without the restraints of options/points and booking periods. I think timeshare companies will have to work hard to simplify the experience as times change and (particularly younger) consumers expect quick and simple booking experiences.

 

[SandyPGravel]

Oy, anyone else get a little tired of all the booking rules and regulations? Sometimes it feels so refreshing to book a simple hotel room without the restraints of options/points and booking periods. I think timeshare companies will have to work hard to simplify the experience as times change and (particularly younger) consumers expect quick and simple booking experiences.

This has always been my comment on why I wouldn't recommend time-sharing (VSE) to a friend. WAY TOO COMPLICATED. But, it falls on deaf ears. The complications are to "their" advantage.

 

[Dean]

Oy, anyone else get a little tired of all the booking rules and regulations? Sometimes it feels so refreshing to book a simple hotel room without the restraints of options/points and booking periods. I think timeshare companies will have to work hard to simplify the experience as times change and (particularly younger) consumers expect quick and simple booking experiences.

In some ways the hotels are more variable, complicated and secretive. I like knowing the rules and planning well ahead, timeshares are perfect for that in our situation.

 

[CPNY]

While at the Grand vista for 6 weeks in June/July I met quite a few interesting people. I met a guy who happened to work in central sales for Vistana/Marriott. He said they were all “hoping for” and expecting VSN and DC to stay as is, Nothing would change in each system. As far as a joint program, possibly at a certain point say 7mo mark you would be able to “convert” what you own into a common currency system for cross booking. They think it would be done through interval international. He admitted no one knows anything and they are all speculating the same as we are.

As long as VSN stays the same I’m all in for a common currency program. Although, with the new VSN Escape deals, I’m looking forward to great last minute deals.

I would think vistana owners would have to own developer or retro’ed units or pay a “Marriott” fee to be able to play. I don’t think mandatory will have any bearing on whether or not you can convert without paying a fee. If the unit is enrolled in the bonvoy program, that is an easy way to flag eligible ownerships that can convert.