How comfortable are you renting (from someone) with all the reported crackdowns on renters?

[wmgjr]

Wyndham's crackdown was brutal. I feel like a magnifying glass is on my account at all times. I am in a new habit of emailing a contact at Wyndham to tell her, "I have a guest checking in on this date, not a blockout, not a commercial rental, just trying to use points to get some of my MF's back."

MVC and Vistana, as long as you are renting deeded weeks and not using Abound or Staroptions, it's probably just fine.

Mmm well I've read more than a few posts where you mention your rentals and competition of others to your rentals. Have you by chance over bought and although just covering your MF are still engaged in commercial rental activity?

 

[wmgjr]

In Club Wyndham, sales to existing owners outnumber sales to new owners 2:1. Existing owners who book what they want using their ownership, instead of seeing it advertised for rent when there is no availability to them as owners, are happier and more likely to add to their ownership. Plus, why would someone who can rent what they want for about $1,000/week spend $30,000 or more (plus the yearly maintenance fees) to buy enough points to book the week using an ownership?

You could merge this thread with the one about failing independents and the future of timeshare industry with olders aging out and start to understand why they're being very restrictive about guest usage and rentals even when just to cover maintenance fees.

 

[dioxide45]

You could merge this thread with the one about failing independents and the future of timeshare industry with olders aging out and start to understand why they're being very restrictive about guest usage and rentals even when just to cover maintenance fees.

I think the issue here is it isn't just to cover the maintenance fees of that one unit. Perhaps in certain years it is. But many buy multiple units, rent say half of them and cover 100% of the fees for everything they own. That isn't just covering maintenance fees. That is commercial activity. If you are buying a timeshare with the intent to rent it out, that is commercial activity. Regardless if such a strategy was promoted by the timeshare salesperson to entice a sale.

 

[wmgjr]

I think the issue here is it isn't just to cover the maintenance fees of that one unit. Perhaps in certain years it is. But many buy multiple units, rent say half of them and cover 100% of the fees for everything they own. That isn't just covering maintenance fees. That is commercial activity. If you are buying a timeshare with the intent to rent it out, that is commercial activity. Regardless if such a strategy was promoted by the timeshare salesperson to entice a sale.

My comment shouldn't be extracted from the quote from CO skier, which included a good analysis of why all rental activity that can be restricted probably will be in the coming years.

Your rental profit doesn't affect The company or how many maintenance fees youre covering if MF for all units are still being covered. What does affect the company is renters knowing they don't have to buy because they can rent from other owners.

 

[RENTER]

I think the issue here is it isn't just to cover the maintenance fees of that one unit. Perhaps in certain years it is. But many buy multiple units, rent say half of them and cover 100% of the fees for everything they own. That isn't just covering maintenance fees. That is commercial activity. If you are buying a timeshare with the intent to rent it out, that is commercial activity. Regardless if such a strategy was promoted by the timeshare salesperson to entice a sale.

That is your opinion. That is not the opinion of the courts and the IRS. Especially the courts who constantly rule against Homeowner Associations who try to declare someone renting their home a commercial activity and in violation of the Homeowner Association rules. Rarely do Homeowner Associations lose but in this case they do.

A lot of people made this argument and settled with NDA's which is why you still see many people renting.

36/24

 

[RENTER]

My comment shouldn't be extracted from the quote from CO skier, which included a good analysis of why all rental activity that can be restricted probably will be in the coming years.

Your rental profit doesn't affect The company or how many maintenance fees youre covering if MF for all units are still being covered. What does affect the company is renters knowing they don't have to buy because they can rent from other owners.

Strongly disagree. Why would anyone want to buy from Wyndham when you have owners here telling them to buy resale? Which is why I question the 2 to 1 ratio of current owners to prospective buyers buying from Wyndham.

Why would not Wyndham have people tell them to buy VIP developer points and then rent them out to cover the costs?

Why would not Wyndham want me to buy more developer VIP points. I would but until they put it on my documents clearly that I can rent on my own, I will not buy any more.

As for those trying to get rid of their units, I will not take it off your hands even if it is free unless Wyndham is clear that we can rent.

I am pretty sure a lot of people had their retirement plans destroyed this week. So, I assume that will be fewer potential buyers and more people who cannot afford their maintenance fees. So, I would assume they would need more people to promote VIP and developer over resale.

Once again, I would never have bought if I could not have rented.

36/24

 

[wmgjr]

Strongly disagree. Why would anyone want to buy from Wyndham when you have owners here telling them to buy resale? Which is why I question the 2 to 1 ratio of current owners to prospective buyers buying from Wyndham.

Why would not Wyndham have people tell them to buy VIP developer points and then rent them out to cover the costs?

Why would not Wyndham want me to buy more developer VIP points. I would but until they put it on my documents clearly that I can rent on my own, I will not buy any more.

As for those trying to get rid of their units, I will not take it off your hands even if it is free unless Wyndham is clear that we can rent.

I am pretty sure a lot of people had their retirement plans destroyed this week. So, I assume that will be fewer potential buyers and more people who cannot afford their maintenance fees. So, I would assume they would need more people to promote VIP and developer over resale.

Once again, I would never have bought if I could not have rented.

36/24

Resale or developer. A more diversified owner base is better for risk management and prospective sales. Again strengthening the original point, the 2 to 1 ratio. If owners upgrade more it's more beneficial to have more owners rather than owners making the inventory available to others at cost. The original point was people won't buy at all if they can rent from owners at MF.

Would it not then serve the developers to restrict rentals as much as possible? No matter what the reason or outcome of an owner renting is.

Adding another layer.
Owners renting also competes with hotel inventory rentals

 

[rickandcindy23]

Mmm well I've read more than a few posts where you mention your rentals and competition of others to your rentals. Have you by chance over bought and although just covering your MF are still engaged in commercial rental activity

I haven't rented anything for 2024, but my kids are no longer listed on our accounts, so I will be adding them as guests.

I have NOT talked about competition of Wyndham because I am NOT renting Wyndham. We had a friend of ours use a week WHILE we were at the same resort, but I had to make sure it was okay to add him to the confirmation. It was not a blackout time for guests, not even a resort with any blackout times.

I am renting Disney. My only commpetition is with dishonest listings of DVC exchanges from II. I also rent some of our WorldMark, and Vistana, which all deeded weeks.

I am allowed to rent Disney points, Westin DEEDED weeks, and WorldMark so far has no rules. Oh, and I rent Shell but that is not working out anymore. No rules against renting Shell but the constant RW warnings are killing the rentals.

 

[jp10558]

My comment shouldn't be extracted from the quote from CO skier, which included a good analysis of why all rental activity that can be restricted probably will be in the coming years.

Your rental profit doesn't affect The company or how many maintenance fees youre covering if MF for all units are still being covered. What does affect the company is renters knowing they don't have to buy because they can rent from other owners.

Though the question I always come back to is - this really only "potentially" affects sales to people on like TUG complaining about availability. To the HOAs etc -they just care about getting the MFs paid.

 

[RENTER]

Resale or developer. A more diversified owner base is better for risk management and prospective sales. Again strengthening the original point, the 2 to 1 ratio. If owners upgrade more it's more beneficial to have more owners rather than owners making the inventory available to others at cost. The original point was people won't buy at all if they can rent from owners at MF.

Would it not then serve the developers to restrict rentals as much as possible? No matter what the reason or outcome of an owner renting is.

Adding another layer.
Owners renting also competes with hotel inventory rentals

One person defeats your argument. My insurance policy. Fido Chuckwagon who tells people not to buy from Wyndham and I will admit makes a good argument and is not wrong. Why would anyone want to upgrade once they know that they can get good deals on E-Bay.

People will buy if they know they can rent it out rather then get stuck with points they may not be able to use and don't want to deal with RCI.

Also I bring new people into the Wyndham system who have bought after seeing what I was doing or used the hotel if no timeshare rooms were available

Remember to the average person, the Wyndham brand does not have a good name. They dealt with many of those crappy hotels. Bringing them into the timeshare resorts improves their brand.

But if they insist on giving away free gifts to attract people in and not use someone like me there is nothing I can do about it except do not buy any more points.

 

[CO skier]

Strongly disagree. Why would anyone want to buy from Wyndham when you have owners here telling them to buy resale? Which is why I question the 2 to 1 ratio of current owners to prospective buyers buying from Wyndham.

 

[CO skier]

Which is why I question the 2 to 1 ratio of current owners to prospective buyers buying from Wyndham.

The actual existing owner upgrade ratio appears to be closer to 3:1.

 

[RENTER]

View attachment 97319

lets do a unscientific study. How many of you owners out there, when you go back are willing to buy more developer points?

How many of you like the resorts but will not buy more developer points? That you prefer to do it Fido Chuckwagons way and buy resale?

I assume and I can be wrong is that the only people that are willing to buy more developer points are doing so to get the VIP benefits that Fido Chuckwagon say are not worth it. I also like to point out that many of you say with the rule changes, the VIP benefits are not as attractive as they were in the past.

I will also assume and again I can be wrong, that many of those going back to buy developer points were subjected to pressure resulting in elder abuse or abuse of people who can easily be talked into buying.

I only went back to buy more developer points to increase my VIP discounts so my rentals cover my maintenance fees and loans so I can travel for free and invest what I saved on traveling in the stock market which I survived this week with a small gain in case those who argue with me about the stock market wonder how I did.

I am pretty sure I butchered the proper grammar rules like Yogi Berra with that long sentence which will make some consider me dumb.

 

[CO skier]

I assume and I can be wrong is that the only people that are willing to buy more developer points are doing so to get the VIP benefits that Fido Chuckwagon say are not worth it. I also like to point out that many of you say with the rule changes, the VIP benefits are not as attractive as they were in the past.

You are wrong, again.

In November, 2019, less than 5% of Club Wyndham was resale owners/accounts, and only a subset of developer purchases are VIP owners/accounts.

[ 2021 ] Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2021 [MERGED]

And from what I was told- the amount of resale owners with VIP is VERY small. Yes it is. I’ve mentioned here multiple times I’m various posts that the total of all resale contracts in the Wyndham system was reportedly 20k back in Nov 2019. Out of roughly 450k CWP owners at that time. In other...

tugbbs.com

 

[jp10558]

lets do a unscientific study. How many of you owners out there, when you go back are willing to buy more developer points?

How many of you like the resorts but will not buy more developer points? That you prefer to do it Fido Chuckwagons way and buy resale?

But this is TUG. As we have noticed a lot - most timeshare owners still don't know about TUG, or think like die hard TUGers do.

I will also assume and again I can be wrong, that many of those going back to buy developer points were subjected to pressure resulting in elder abuse or abuse of people who can easily be talked into buying.

This is likely 100% true with the current timeshare sales system. It's also true that timeshares in general have a horrible reputation with the general populace, IMO likely mostly due to the current sales methods. Owners, who know what the system is and are using it are probably overall way more positively disposed towards timeshares in general. Many also lack understanding or knowledge of resale (or don't trust "the risk"). All of this almost has to make them an easier sell than the majority of people who just saw John Oliver or NBC news run the story of NEVER BUY A TIMESHARE.

But like in some of the quotes above - I can imagine that if you get people to the resort, they're in the state of mind of "I'm enjoying myself", the resort is nice, and very few people are like "I want to spend less time on vacation". Now, I imagine there's a small number of people who can really afford developer prices, but in a lot of ways timeshares are also hard to sell because most people "don't know what they're missing". The existing owners do know, they know the value in a way most of the world doesn't IMO.

 

[heitmullerj02]

I just got back from Wyndham Sedona, which my sister booked for me. I had to go mid week, which is fine. No rental or gift certificate on weekends! I can see this would be a problem if you were renting it out.

 

[heitmullerj02]

Also you make Vistana sound so wonderful but my experience is different. I bought in 1998, resale and to this day they will not do anything except collect my MF. I have to go thru II for any changes. You think after all these years I would be grandfathered in, I bought before it was a Sheraton. So my subsequent timeshares, are all HGVC, so stupid on their part.

 

[RENTER]

But this is TUG. As we have noticed a lot - most timeshare owners still don't know about TUG, or think like die hard TUGers do.

This is likely 100% true with the current timeshare sales system. It's also true that timeshares in general have a horrible reputation with the general populace, IMO likely mostly due to the current sales methods. Owners, who know what the system is and are using it are probably overall way more positively disposed towards timeshares in general. Many also lack understanding or knowledge of resale (or don't trust "the risk"). All of this almost has to make them an easier sell than the majority of people who just saw John Oliver or NBC news run the story of NEVER BUY A TIMESHARE.

But like in some of the quotes above - I can imagine that if you get people to the resort, they're in the state of mind of "I'm enjoying myself", the resort is nice, and very few people are like "I want to spend less time on vacation". Now, I imagine there's a small number of people who can really afford developer prices, but in a lot of ways timeshares are also hard to sell because most people "don't know what they're missing". The existing owners do know, they know the value in a way most of the world doesn't IMO.

You are correct about many not knowing about Tug. But those who bought into the system do not need Tug to know the problems. They experienced it. Also, they have talked to other owners while there who have told them about resale.

So if they go back and buy developer for any reason other then trying to get a higher VIP discount, I will assume they were pressured into buying more because they were elderly or gullible or as you say, they simply did not know.

 

[jp10558]

You are correct about many not knowing about Tug. But those who bought into the system do not need Tug to know the problems. They experienced it. Also, they have talked to other owners while there who have told them about resale.

Have they? I've gone to a bunch of properties and rarely if ever even done more than wave at other people staying there.

So if they go back and buy developer for any reason other then trying to get a higher VIP discount, I will assume they were pressured into buying more because they were elderly or gullible or as you say, they simply did not know.

How does this affect the 3:1 owner:new buyer sales ratio you were arguing against though? Just cause suckers are born every minute doesn't mean they're only a sucker once...

 

[RENTER]

You are wrong, again.

In November, 2019, less than 5% of Club Wyndham was resale owners/accounts, and only a subset of developer purchases are VIP owners/accounts.

[ 2021 ] Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2021 [MERGED]

And from what I was told- the amount of resale owners with VIP is VERY small. Yes it is. I’ve mentioned here multiple times I’m various posts that the total of all resale contracts in the Wyndham system was reportedly 20k back in Nov 2019. Out of roughly 450k CWP owners at that time. In other...

tugbbs.com

What ever you say. You proved my point that elder abuse and abuse of gullible people is used to make you point correct. If people are buying Developer points and not getting to VIP, why are they buying again? Spending all that money only to get another week or two vacation? People can only take so many vacations a year.

 

[wmgjr]

You are correct about many not knowing about Tug. But those who bought into the system do not need Tug to know the problems. They experienced it. Also, they have talked to other owners while there who have told them about resale.

So if they go back and buy developer for any reason other then trying to get a higher VIP discount, I will assume they were pressured into buying more because they were elderly or gullible or as you say, they simply did not know.

This is a gross simplification. I meet many owners who have no problem buying from the developer even when introduced to resale. Resales can be complicated. Take time to learn and master buying the best contract for their usage. May be afraid of dealing with scammers and non reputable sources.

Also you can't assume everybody has a bad experience. Again I meet many people who only have 1 to 2 weeks of vacation and as long as they can book something during that time, which clearly they did if I'm meeting them they have no problem with what they purchased.

I also think cash flow is a major factor in selling to lower middle class people. The developer can sell you something no matter how much cash you have. Resales if not complete garbage can go for between 500 to 16k. Plus closing and transfer many people don't have that cash flow.

Also all of us Internet nerds on TUG may overestimate other people's ability *or interest* in using the WWW to find the best deals. Convenience and instant gratification could be a factor here too

 

[jp10558]

This is a gross simplification. I meet many owners who have no problem buying from the developer even when introduced to resale. Resales can be complicated. Take time to learn and master buying the best contract for their usage. May be afraid of dealing with scammers and non reputable sources.

I agree, it's a similar concern I have about Airbnb - I just haven't gotten comfortable with the idea yet (and it for my uses seems to always cost more too). It's a lot like booking tours vs planning it yourself - some people value the ease more than the money, it's just developer is such a huge differential it does amaze me.

I also think cash flow is a major factor in selling to lower middle class people. The developer can sell you something no matter how much cash you have. Resales if not complete garbage can go for between 500 to 16k. Plus closing and transfer many people don't have that cash flow.

The kind of stupid thing is - you can get an unsecured personal loan for resale prices at lower interest rates than the developer ones. I know TUG strongly discourages this, but if the options are $24,000 at 19% or whatever they're getting vs $5,000 at 14% (pretty readily available if you look and have decent credit, and likely to come down once the fed lowers rates) I know which I'd recommend.

Also all of us Internet nerds on TUG may overestimate other people's ability *or interest* in using the WWW to find the best deals. Convenience and instant gratification could be a factor here too

This is very true - so many communities / experts just can't imagine how much they "just know" that others don't even know that they don't know.

A good friend of mine was against timeshares back in 08 when I first looked into them, so I don't really talk to him about them because I don't want to get into a large argument. A year ago I swear he fell for an exit company, which stunned me, but even more was when he said the exit company had introduced him to RCI for the first time! Now I understand why he complained about never getting to Hawaii to use his timeshare! He just didn't know there were exchange companies where he could have gotten some use of the timeshare. He's not an idiot, just for some reason scared and disinclined to try and figure anything out that's not in his narrow area of expertise.

See - at least till the full AI revolution, a lot of people don't even know the right question to ask. So while search would get you all the info, if you don't know timeshare exchanges are even possible you're never typing into a search box "how do I exchange my timeshare". And if you believe what the salespeople told you or the understanding of a timeshare you had back in 1990, you're never going to think to even search "what can I do if I can't use my timeshare this year?". You already think you know - you've lost the money if you can't go to that location for that week.

And be honest - how many of you have the time or inclination to review the state of the industry or whatever for every area you touch on a regular basis? I know I find a good option and stick with it till it stops working for me.

 

[RENTER]

This is a gross simplification. I meet many owners who have no problem buying from the developer even when introduced to resale. Resales can be complicated. Take time to learn and master buying the best contract for their usage. May be afraid of dealing with scammers and non reputable sources.

Also you can't assume everybody has a bad experience. Again I meet many people who only have 1 to 2 weeks of vacation and as long as they can book something during that time, which clearly they did if I'm meeting them they have no problem with what they purchased.

I also think cash flow is a major factor in selling to lower middle class people. The developer can sell you something no matter how much cash you have. Resales if not complete garbage can go for between 500 to 16k. Plus closing and transfer many people don't have that cash flow.

Also all of us Internet nerds on TUG may overestimate other people's ability *or interest* in using the WWW to find the best deals. Convenience and instant gratification could be a factor here too

Off course nothing is 100%. But I doubt that many people of the 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 he talks about are going back to pay thousands more for a couple more weeks. People cannot take that many vacations.

Maybe before when they could book rooms for their families. But with the guest pass limit during owner priority periods, that put a damper on then sending their families to prime resorts and prime periods.

Again you also confirm my point like Colorado. To get to his 2 to 1 or 3 to 1, they are pressuring seniors and gullible period to buy more. Those are the people who do not understand the resale program as you mentioned.

I know because I meet them all the time, especially distress who were pressured to buy more that they could not afford or in no position to use all the points they bought.

They ask for help all the time. I have them have a family member who will understand what I am saying, contact me so I can teach them how I rent if they could not get rid of the timeshare.

If Colorado wants to pound his chest and tell me I am wrong because they use seniors and gullible people to get to their 2 to 1 or 3 to 1, that tells you something about him.

 

[CO skier]

What ever you say. You proved my point that elder abuse and abuse of gullible people is used to make you point correct. If people are buying Developer points and not getting to VIP, why are they buying again? Spending all that money only to get another week or two vacation? People can only take so many vacations a year.

Re-read post #37 again, as many times as it takes, to understand the post is simply a statement supported by the 2021 Travel + Leisure 10-k (not 401k ) Report that the owner upgrade ratio is 3:1; so that there would be no more doubt in your mind. That is all. There is nothing that even suggests, much less supports, your random, illogical, uncoordinated conclusions.

The more you post, the more you reveal how little you know about Club Wyndham and timeshares in general.

 

[RENTER]

Re-read post #37 again, as many times as it takes, to understand the post is simply a statement supported by the 2021 Travel + Leisure 10-k (not 401k ) Report that the owner upgrade ratio is 3:1; so that there would be no more doubt in your mind. That is all. There is nothing that even suggests, much less supports, your random, illogical, uncoordinated conclusions.

The more you post, the more you reveal how little you know about Club Wyndham and timeshares in general.

you keep on thinking that 3 to 1 is not taking advantage of elderly and gullible people . I can refer you to 27 senior citizens over the age of 70 who are part of that 3 to1 who were taken advantage off.