Help! Timeshare is sinking us

[carl2591]

I, for one, hate it when folks show up here on TUG wanting to get info on getting out of the timeshare purchase the salesman/women made sound like a good deal..

For some they get cold feet and are within the period to rescind, and get out of the deal and we all breath a big sigh of relief.. Then there are other like these guys that bought then times were good for them and now it not and they are stuck..

Some rules i follow is never buy on the day you see something, especially big ticket items, ... UNLESS you have done a ton of research and know what you are getting.. Many people are shocked to learn what they paid 15K for can be found, with out some of the add ons, for 1-2K. and many have never heard of timeshare before the free 3 night 4 day special offer came to them..

I hope these guys find some help but it's not a good outcome most of the time.. Sale is not an option in many cases, bankrupt is not a real good option,, not enough points to rent the unit to cover MF at least much less the monthly payment, so what do you do.. The developer spent a TON of money to make sure you can not get out of the contract short of foreclosure and a big ding on your credit.

Stay away from the Timeshare exit folks,, they talk a good game but there is NOT guarantee it will work and if not you are on the hook for more money.. It might be worth a look at some of the attorney based ones.. I have heard where some folks it did work but not sure what they had, how much owed, or the outcome.. might be worth a deep dive search to see.. but the rule #1 is no money up front ...

Good luck !!

 

[55plus]

Why aren’t any of you upset that Wyndham has such control over how you choose to use your timeshare?
Telling you no rentals ? Do they allow exchanging? I know I’m out of my lane, but I’m curious?

A Wyndham owner can rent out their reserved timeshare as long as an owner meets certain conditions and follow their terms. So not bring able rent out a Wyndham timeshare is not factual.

 

[chapjim]

Well, let’s hear your advice. I’m not a Wyndham owner by the way.

OP was given cogent, pithy advice by persons who know about Wyndham ownership. See posts #11 and #26. There was no reason for me to repeat advice already given.

 

[PhilD41]

@CTW, There is a lot of good (and off topic) discussion here. I think it is worth repeating TUGBrian's advice. If you can find a credit union or similar where you can take out a personal loan at a lower interest rate than the Wyndham loan, it would be well worth a side hustle for a few years to pay it off. By paying off Wyndham you will have freedom to deal with the timeshare in different ways. You could sell it on eBay, but I would recommend entering Certified Exit if you can't cover the new loan amount and maintenance fees. At least this way you would get three years of 105K points for personal use as part of the exit. $5K a year is pretty pricey vaca lodging, but it is better than trashed credit or nothing at all (eBay).

I get that we don't know your life circumstances at the moment. It is easy to say "get a side hustle." Hopefully you find yourself in a situation where that is an option. I think, in this case, it would certainly be worth making yourself uncomfortable for a little while and learn what you can from it. It is certainly no fun and I am sorry you find yourself in this boat.

Grace & Peace

 

[Family_travel]

I don't think it's my place or anyone else's here to make a comment like "everyone can come up with 15 grand", that's an incredibly obtuse statement to make, especially if they are unemployed

The OP @CTW said they are not able to pay other bills, so to them $15K is a large sum.
I am under the impression they need a "side hustle" to pay necessary expenses.
Also, if they are behind in other bills they would not be able to get another type of loan or credit card.

My advice to OP, who has probably stopped reading the thread by now, is take the time to fully access your financial situation.
Dave Ramsey can be wrong about a lot of things, but I think his advice about getting out of debt is good.
Once you can explain your financial situation, you can contact Wyndham's hardship program. They can either work with you or not. They are at the bottom of your list of concerns.
If you can keep a roof over your head and transportation to get to work, a ding on your credit is not the end of the world.

I encourage you and your husband to take this time to really take control of your finances. Track your income and expenses. I would suggest working extra to build up an emergency fund/saving vs paying off a timeshare loan. Even if you paid off the loan, there are still maintenance fees. Once you get out of debt, you can re-buy Wyndham points on the resale market (after fully understanding the program)

 

[bnoble]

I am one of those "pay your debts" people, but even I think it is perfectly fine to default on a timeshare purchase. Take the credit hit (if there even is one) and move on.

 

[cak144]

Most of the rest of us applaud Wyndham for taking a stand against the scourge of renting in our system...

.

I am not a Wyndham owner, but am curious why you applaud Wyndam for taking a stand against renting and which you call a scourge. How does that hurt any of the owners, even those who have no interest in renting? I would think that it would help the resale value and just make for good owner relations by allowing rentals.

 

[sponger76]

I am not a Wyndham owner, but an curious why you applaud Wyndam for taking a stand against renting and which you call a scourge. How does that hurt any of the owners, even those who have no interest in renting? I would think that it would help the resale value and just make for good owner relations by allowing rentals.

I'm not a Wyndham owner either, but here's my take on it:

There are people who fall on different sides of the issue in pretty much every timeshare system.

A lot of people feel like, in the event they have an off year where they just won't be able to use their ownership themselves or friends/family, they should be able to rent it out to at least recoup some, if not all, of that year's maintenance fees. There are some hardcore anti-renters who would still say no, but I think the majority of people find it a reasonable thing to allow.

Some feel like they should be able to do anything they like with what they 'own' including monetizing it and turning it into a business, even if the timeshare contract prohibits it. What makes it murkier is that even when the contract prohibits it, a lot of the salespeople will still pitch renting as a benefit if you'll just buy more weeks/points from them. In addition, a lot of the systems just say no 'commercial' usage of reservations but then don't clearly define what 'commercial' is, so both pro- and anti- renters will interpret that to their own point of view.

Within the pro-renting camp is a subset of people who accumulate large quantities of weeks/points, specifically to rent out rather than for their own vacationing. One term I've seen used for that group, particularly on the Wyndham forum, is 'megarenters.'

Anti-renters often feel like renters, and in particular megarenters, make a practice of booking up the lion's share of prime inventory at the earliest possible moment, with the full intention of renting out to people who don't own there and didn't bother to buy in to the timeshare system. This might leave little to no inventory for regular owners to stay at their home resort during the most desirable periods, and exacerbates the need to be online or on the phone at exact X time on Y date Z months ahead just to even have a change of getting a reservation at whatever resort for Christmas/New Years/Spring Break/name your popular vacation week.

Whether or not renters actually have that large of an impact on availability for regular owners, I have no way of knowing for sure, but I can at least understand the point of view of those who worry about it. I have never rented out a reservation, but I have on occasion been frustrated at the lack of availability with the systems I do own. Yet I sometimes think about renting out and would like the flexibility to do so, within reason. The problem is, you'll never get everyone to agree to a hard and fast definition of 'within reason.'

 

[racer-x]

We bought a Wyndham timeshare before the economy went kaput and we could afford it. Now we aren’t even treading water.
I’m leary of exit companies, they seem like frauds.
Are there any happy Wyndham owners that would like to acquire more points?
I feel so lost. I just found this website…haven’t the foggiest how it works.

Call Wyndham. We had an ownership. They had an option to relinquish your ownership. We have been free of it for a few years now.

 

[wrk2travelalot]

One of the things I like about the timeshare system the owners tend to have a certain pride in being an owner it that resort system. When you have renters, the "mindset" tends to be temporary like a hotel not longterm. True owners tend to be multigenerational.

Condo owners in the US have figured this out as a higher percentage are becoming owner occupied with no renting. My condo just did this and now our culture is more community oriented. People are much more friendly.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[yodaDaenerys]

foreclosure will stick with you for 7 years. as long as you don't need to borrow money in that time period, that's about the worst of it hitting your credit.

sadly, i'm speaking from personal experience.

 

[yodaDaenerys]

Call Wyndham. We had an ownership. They had an option to relinquish your ownership. We have been free of it for a few years now.

stop paying for a few months before calling. in my experience they won't even talk to you if you are current on payments. or call right away and see what they say?

 

[Eggrollcreative]

If you ask me, the “mega renters” aren’t the issue, the overselling of the timeshares is the issue. Basically they have a system that counts on people not able to use their points? Or only the most competitive “stay up until midnight” folks get the popular resorts? Kind of despicable. Whether they use or rent them, those points should be usable. And they try to upgrade us claiming that will “solve” the problem with even more points that need to be used.

 

[andre10056]

We bought a Wyndham timeshare before the economy went kaput and we could afford it. Now we aren’t even treading water.
I’m leary of exit companies, they seem like frauds.
Are there any happy Wyndham owners that would like to acquire more points?
I feel so lost. I just found this website…haven’t the foggiest how it works.

I think you might consider talking to an attorney that not only specializes in debtor/creditor law but also works on timeshare cases.

And I'm talking about doing a search for something like "Nevada timeshare attorney" or "Florida timeshare attorney" or whatever state might be appropriate in your case.

As an example, doing a search for "Nevada timeshare attorney" turned up the following, among multiple others:

Nevada Timeshare Lawyers - No Upfront Fees - A+ BBB Rating | The Law Offices of Kenneth H. Dramer, P.C.

Experienced Timeshare Lawyers. NO UPFRONT FEES. Cancel Your Timeshare or Don't Pay a Fee. You Have Nothing To Lose Except Your Timeshare. FREE CONSULTATIONS.

dramerlaw.com

Only $1950 if they succeed, no upfront fees sounds pretty good to me. And they apparently have or are affiliated with attorneys in all 50 states.

I don't know this nor any other similar law firm but you can do your due diligence and check with the BBB and check with the local bar association and check with whomever else to see if they're legit.

Having someone professionally negotiate your case with Wyndham senior execs rather than your emotionally begging Wyndham's minimum wage junior customer service reps may make all the difference in getting you out of your timeshare. Having someone with experience knowing precisely what to say and/or knowing all of Wyndham's vulnerabilities will similarly be helpful.

Because you don't know, as I don't know, things like your Wyndham salespeople having had many hundreds of complaints per year lodged with the Better Business Bureau. If that's true (and your attorney would know), Wyndham might know right off the bat that they would have no hope of prevailing in court if that BBB rep were to testify.

Not to mention the fact that no one would believe anything a timeshare sales entity might say, anyway.

So if you had to pay $1950 and thereafter have no timeshare, would that be better or worse for you than having to pay $15,000 and still have to pay the annual maintenance fees?

And if they wouldn't be able to help you because they had no leverage with Wyndham and Wyndham was willing to go for the jugular, at least they could knowledgeably advise you (rather than TUGGERS perhaps not so knowledgeably advising you) what the implications might be of foreclosure, etc. in the specific jurisdiction where you bought the timeshare. Big difference between "no deficiency judgment" states like Florida and South Carolina as compared to other states.

 

[LannyPC]

I think you might consider talking to an attorney that not only specializes in debtor/creditor law but also works on timeshare cases.

Only $1950 if they succeed, no upfront fees sounds pretty good to me.

So if you had to pay $1950 and thereafter have no timeshare, would that be better or worse for you than having to pay $15,000 and still have to pay the annual maintenance fees?

Here's what I don't understand about this and the claims that these law firms and exit companies make. If I were in the OP's situation and hired this law firm, what would this law firm do for me for the low, low price of $1950 that I couldn't do myself?

 

[LannyPC]

Call Wyndham. We had an ownership. They had an option to relinquish your ownership. We have been free of it for a few years now.

But AFAIK, Wyndham won't let you relinquish your ownership if you still have a loan or MFs owing on it like the OP does. That's the plight the OP is in and we're trying to give the OP the best advice under these circumstances without getting in much more trouble.

 

[chapjim]

But AFAIK, Wyndham won't let you relinquish your ownership if you still have a loan or MFs owing on it like the OP does. That's the plight the OP is in and we're trying to give the OP the best advice under these circumstances without getting in much more trouble.

For one thing, it is almost certain that Wyndham would no longer hold the loan for the timeshare purchase. Trying to negotiate anything related to that loan with Wyndham would fruitless.

Maintenance fees are a different matter. Much easier to walk away.

 

[tjk144]

If you ask me, the “mega renters” aren’t the issue, the overselling of the timeshares is the issue. Basically they have a system that counts on people not able to use their points? Or only the most competitive “stay up until midnight” folks get the popular resorts? Kind of despicable. Whether they use or rent them, those points should be usable. And they try to upgrade us claiming that will “solve” the problem with even more points that need to be used.

I only own weeks, not points but I am somewhat familiar with points. Don't the points have to be backed up by deeded weeks? Otherwise , companies could sell an unlimited number of points making it virtually impossible to ever get reservations at any decent resort and season in that timeshare system.

 

[paxsarah]

If you ask me, the “mega renters” aren’t the issue, the overselling of the timeshares is the issue. Basically they have a system that counts on people not able to use their points? Or only the most competitive “stay up until midnight” folks get the popular resorts? Kind of despicable. Whether they use or rent them, those points should be usable. And they try to upgrade us claiming that will “solve” the problem with even more points that need to be used.

Wyndham resorts aren’t oversold. But if they’re 100 percent sold, you’ve got more owners competing for prime weeks than for quiet weeks. Because of that, I’m on at midnight 10 months out for the handful of prime reservations I want to book. I’ve never found my points not to be usable.

 

[andre10056]

Here's what I don't understand about this and the claims that these law firms and exit companies make. If I were in the OP's situation and hired this law firm, what would this law firm do for me for the low, low price of $1950 that I couldn't do myself?

Exit companies will do absolutely nothing for you. You can certainly do that (i.e., nothing) yourself and not have to pay any money upfront in order to do so.

But why do you hire a carpenter? A plumber? Bring your car into a repair shop? You can certainly do whatever they do as best you can and not pay any money whatsoever. At least not initially. But perhaps having to repair your "repair" might cost you tenfold what you might have been charged without your prior involvement. You can sell a piece of real estate without an attorney representing you at closing, but might you find out later that the erroneously prepared closing statement should have given you many thousands of dollars more? You can even represent yourself in court but most people believe that you might possibly maybe be better off if you hired an attorney for most incidences of litigation/criminal defense.

You hire those people because they're allegedly knowledgeable in their areas of expertise.

And rather than mess around by emotionally begging a junior, minimum wage customer service clerk to please please please let you out of your loan (which you can certainly try initially before taking that next step), maybe an attorney might be able to talk to the right people. Perhaps an attorney who's already taken them to court and whupped their behinds so they won't be too keen about another such experience so they might be a tad more negotiable.

And, in any case, if the attorney can't help you, he'll be able to advise you about all your options. He'll know if this or that jurisdiction will allow or not allow the timeshare "lender" to aggressively go after you for any deficiency judgment. I guess, in the OP's case, that would be $15,000 because no one would likely be bidding a dime at the foreclosure auction. Maybe the attorney might know that, in Florida for example, as long as you don't object in any way to the foreclosure (and he'd be able to advise you on how NOT to be deemed to have objected), Florida law does not allow any timeshare entity to collect any such deficiency judgment.

In summary, an attorney might be better able to negotiate a way out for you and/or help you to avoid minefields and/or help you make an optimal decision by presenting you with all possible outcomes.

 

[troy12n]

I am not a Wyndham owner, but am curious why you applaud Wyndam for taking a stand against renting and which you call a scourge. How does that hurt any of the owners, even those who have no interest in renting? I would think that it would help the resale value and just make for good owner relations by allowing rentals.

It's been proven through the years that there was a, relatively small (at least by percent of total owners) group of owners that had accumulated, in some cases tens of millions of points and were using a fraction of that for personal use, and renting out the rest. They were making quite a bit of money doing it too. Actual income, not just "offsetting maintenance fees" which is the common lie used by them. At any rate, a few years ago Wyndham somehow found out that one specific owner, had something on the order of 50+ reservations at Gacier Canyon during the Thanksgiving week. Owners complained about this, and other instances (like Mardi Gras in New Orleans, Bike Week at Daytona, etc) that they were having trouble getting reservations for their families because these so called Mega Renters were in many cases monopolizing bookings for self profit. You may not know this, but until recently, if they were a VIP, they could use their resale points and get VIP privilages (upgrades, perks, etc) with those resale points as well.

Your comment about helping resale value for timeshares is a moot point because we all know by now timeshares do and always will have near zero value when we try to get rid of them... we at least want to be able to utilize them as they have been sold to us, while we can. Not compete with owners who think they are Donald Trump selling their timeshare on the black market to scrupulous families looking to save a buck but have no skin in the game...

There are people who fall on different sides of the issue in pretty much every timeshare system.

Yes, but in general, there are the people who RENT, who use the timeshare as an income vehicle, and there are the people who use the timeshare as intended. To vacation with their families.

A lot of people feel like, in the event they have an off year where they just won't be able to use their ownership themselves or friends/family, they should be able to rent it out to at least recoup some, if not all, of that year's maintenance fees. There are some hardcore anti-renters who would still say no, but I think the majority of people find it a reasonable thing to allow.

Speaking for myself, I honestly don't have a problem with the "average owner" that is down on their luck and wants to rent a week or 2 per year. That is absolutely NOT impacting availability. But what Wyndham found out is theres no way to properly enforce the restrictions on one group (the MEGA renter) without affecting the other (the "casual" renter). So they drew a line in the sand, and made changes to disallow both. You have a handful of people running unregulated, untaxed, cash businesses from the smokey basement of their dilapidated midwest home, or doublewide somewhere in the forest of Alabama, which were negatively affecting thousands of timeshare owners just trying to use what they paid for and competing with some scene out of the "fake gambling parlor" in the movie "The Sting"...

There have always been people on TUG who have sided with the mega renters, because they learned a trick or two from them, and several of them who were in the game, are crying foul about how they now have millions of points, and tens of thousands of dollars in MF they can't pay for with rentals... this is a self inflicted issue and it might seem cold or callous but I don't really have any sympathy for this group. They knew what they were doing was wrong, was against the club rules, and more importantly, that it was negatively affecting other owners. And didn't care, did it for pure profit. Greed.

This topic has been discussed to death on here, and you are right, it can be polarizing, but I sleep fine knowing what side of the debate i'm on... and to be clear, regarding the issue of "having to stay up to midnight", that is really a very small issue that you would encounter at only the most sought after resorts and only at PRIME weeks or weekends (think holidays, spring break, etc) and I feel a lot better losing out to some owner or family who is using it for their personal use vs some shyster who is going to park it 10 months out, the hock it on ebay to the highest bidder... THAT is the difference.

 

[WManning]

It's been proven through the years that there was a, relatively small (at least by percent of total owners) group of owners that had accumulated, in some cases tens of millions of points and were using a fraction of that for personal use, and renting out the rest. They were making quite a bit of money doing it too. Actual income, not just "offsetting maintenance fees" which is the common lie used by them. At any rate, a few years ago Wyndham somehow found out that one specific owner, had something on the order of 50+ reservations at Gacier Canyon during the Thanksgiving week. Owners complained about this, and other instances (like Mardi Gras in New Orleans, Bike Week at Daytona, etc) that they were having trouble getting reservations for their families because these so called Mega Renters were in many cases monopolizing bookings for self profit. You may not know this, but until recently, if they were a VIP, they could use their resale points and get VIP privilages (upgrades, perks, etc) with those resale points as well.

Your comment about helping resale value for timeshares is a moot point because we all know by now timeshares do and always will have near zero value when we try to get rid of them... we at least want to be able to utilize them as they have been sold to us, while we can. Not compete with owners who think they are Donald Trump selling their timeshare on the black market to scrupulous families looking to save a buck but have no skin in the game...



Yes, but in general, there are the people who RENT, who use the timeshare as an income vehicle, and there are the people who use the timeshare as intended. To vacation with their families.



Speaking for myself, I honestly don't have a problem with the "average owner" that is down on their luck and wants to rent a week or 2 per year. That is absolutely NOT impacting availability. But what Wyndham found out is theres no way to properly enforce the restrictions on one group (the MEGA renter) without affecting the other (the "casual" renter). So they drew a line in the sand, and made changes to disallow both. You have a handful of people running unregulated, untaxed, cash businesses from the smokey basement of their dilapidated midwest home, or doublewide somewhere in the forest of Alabama, which were negatively affecting thousands of timeshare owners just trying to use what they paid for and competing with some scene out of the "fake gambling parlor" in the movie "The Sting"...

There have always been people on TUG who have sided with the mega renters, because they learned a trick or two from them, and several of them who were in the game, are crying foul about how they now have millions of points, and tens of thousands of dollars in MF they can't pay for with rentals... this is a self inflicted issue and it might seem cold or callous but I don't really have any sympathy for this group. They knew what they were doing was wrong, was against the club rules, and more importantly, that it was negatively affecting other owners. And didn't care, did it for pure profit. Greed.

This topic has been discussed to death on here, and you are right, it can be polarizing, but I sleep fine knowing what side of the debate i'm on... and to be clear, regarding the issue of "having to stay up to midnight", that is really a very small issue that you would encounter at only the most sought after resorts and only at PRIME weeks or weekends (think holidays, spring break, etc) and I feel a lot better losing out to some owner or family who is using it for their personal use vs some shyster who is going to park it 10 months out, the hock it on ebay to the highest bidder... THAT is the difference.

"Oh those were they days my friend I thought would never end"

 

[WManning]

Exit companies will do absolutely nothing for you. You can certainly do that (i.e., nothing) yourself and not have to pay any money upfront in order to do so.

But why do you hire a carpenter? A plumber? Bring your car into a repair shop? You can certainly do whatever they do as best you can and not pay any money whatsoever. At least not initially. But perhaps having to repair your "repair" might cost you tenfold what you might have been charged without your prior involvement. You can sell a piece of real estate without an attorney representing you at closing, but might you find out later that the erroneously prepared closing statement should have given you many thousands of dollars more? You can even represent yourself in court but most people believe that you might possibly maybe be better off if you hired an attorney for most incidences of litigation/criminal defense.

You hire those people because they're allegedly knowledgeable in their areas of expertise.

And rather than mess around by emotionally begging a junior, minimum wage customer service clerk to please please please let you out of your loan (which you can certainly try initially before taking that next step), maybe an attorney might be able to talk to the right people. Perhaps an attorney who's already taken them to court and whupped their behinds so they won't be too keen about another such experience so they might be a tad more negotiable.

And, in any case, if the attorney can't help you, he'll be able to advise you about all your options. He'll know if this or that jurisdiction will allow or not allow the timeshare "lender" to aggressively go after you for any deficiency judgment. I guess, in the OP's case, that would be $15,000 because no one would likely be bidding a dime at the foreclosure auction. Maybe the attorney might know that, in Florida for example, as long as you don't object in any way to the foreclosure (and he'd be able to advise you on how NOT to be deemed to have objected), Florida law does not allow any timeshare entity to collect any such deficiency judgment.

In summary, an attorney might be better able to negotiate a way out for you and/or help you to avoid minefields and/or help you make an optimal decision by presenting you with all possible outcomes.

A attorney will only add to the cost of exiting. Walk away and forget about it. If you can't afford to pay rent or electric its a non issue.

 

[Snazzylass]

Foreclosure on your credit report could prevent you from qualifying for a mortgage for 4 years; 2 for FHA.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

You have a handful of people running unregulated, untaxed, cash businesses from the smokey basement of their dilapidated midwest home, or doublewide somewhere in the forest of Alabama

Lol, this line was great.