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Grand Chateau - They manage portfolios

davidvel

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You really need to stop preaching to me. I'm frankly not surprised that you have never not been fed a misleading sales pitch. After all, the sales folks do tend to mislead those who just don't have a good understanding of the product.
Funny, ha, ha, the insults continue. I'm new here, just learning "the product." Any more catch-phrases?
 
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LeslieDet

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Ahh, thanks for the clarification. Have you ever been told things that you know not to be wholly and truly factual?
Of course there have been some statements made that are not entirely accurate or are incomplete. But I just don't simply sit there mute. I engage in conversation. I've had sales presentations where many half truths are tossed out there. Things like resale points have restrictions. Well, that is technically accurate. Resale points do indeed have restrictions and by the T&C will only be treated as forever holding points (meaning no banking or borrowing and reservations can only be made on a 60 day or less basis); however, once the activation fee (or as referred to in the T&C, the "initiation fee") of $3/point is paid, those points work just the same. The statement made by the sales person is not a misleading sales pitch. It is rather an incomplete statement of how things work. Once the fee is paid, points are points.

Think about what folks report as the lies. I have never been pitched that if I buy more points the salesman will manage my portfolio for me and rent out my points. I've never been pitched to sell back or give back my deeded weeks because Trust Points have a lower MF or because the MF on my deeded weeks will skyrocket so high that I'll have to pay a significant assessment. I've never been pitched the "master deed" claim, that it is better to hold all timeshares under one "master deed". I've never been pitched that II is going away so I must get rid of my deeded resale weeks or I'll never be able to use them again. I've never been pitched that my elected Club Points are inferior to owned MVC Trust Points.

Have sales staff tried the FOMO that the owner levels will be changing? Actually, I did indeed hear that back in 2014 and sure enough, the levels changed in 2015. Have I heard it since, probably, but I've never been told that on a date specific it will change. I actually believe that it is quite possible the levels will change in the future; it is just that the time has not yet arrived. When it happens, corporate will communicate with every owner, just like corporate did in 2014/2015.

Have I heard that Club Points can book hotels? Yep, but that is accurate. It is typically extremely expensive to use Club Points to book hotels, but it does work. I have heard the buy more points and rent them out and cover your MF. And, technically, that may be accurate. The problem is that you may cover your MF, but you'll never recover the capital cost and when you rent out your points, you are not the one using them to vacation, so it is a waste of money.

I would hope that anyone who attends sales presentations understands how the program works and doesn't just blindly accept the words. When folks are misled, like how the OP reported, I believe it is important to report those misleading pitches to corporate. I do not believe that the folks who make those egregious claims are heralded by corporate and given steak and lobster as a reward.
 

jmhpsu93

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Think about what folks report as the lies. I have never been pitched that if I buy more points the salesman will manage my portfolio for me and rent out my points. I've never been pitched to sell back or give back my deeded weeks because Trust Points have a lower MF or because the MF on my deeded weeks will skyrocket so high that I'll have to pay a significant assessment. I've never been pitched the "master deed" claim, that it is better to hold all timeshares under one "master deed". I've never been pitched that II is going away so I must get rid of my deeded resale weeks or I'll never be able to use them again. I've never been pitched that my elected Club Points are inferior to owned MVC Trust Points.

I've heard all of these, and we know what we're doing...half the time we know the product better than the sales people. Another one I've heard recently is that MVC is going to end the enrolled week points program. First time I've raised my voice to a sales person.

I've found at this point with our portfolio it's important that we lead the conversation and explain how we use what we currently have, that it works for us and is acceptable financially.
 

1Kflyerguy

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We had a presentation at MOC one time where the sale guy really pushed the idea of buying enough points to run a rental operation, though he did not offer to manage or help run the rental operation in anyway other than he felt AirBnB was best way to rent.

With HGV, at our very first presentation, I don't think they outright lied, but they were definitely vague, and used statements that could be interpreted several ways...
 

davidvel

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If a salesperson convinces a mark to buy direct on the claim that "resale points have restrictions," without disclosing that they restrictions can be removed through the payment of the $3+ fees, this is fraud in California. Examples:
  • A partially true statement, in which the other part is a misrepresentation that is material to the transaction
  • The omission of some details that would create a misunderstanding or false belief of a material matter to the transaction by the other party, where the party knows the other party lacks such information
  • Giving facts which are likely to mislead as a result of the suppression of other facts that would clarify such facts;
 

LeslieDet

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If a salesperson convinces a mark to buy direct on the claim that "resale points have restrictions," without disclosing that they restrictions can be removed through the payment of the $3+ fees, this is fraud in California. Examples:
  • A partially true statement, in which the other part is a misrepresentation that is material to the transaction
  • The omission of some details that would create a misunderstanding or false belief of a material matter to the transaction by the other party, where the party knows the other party lacks such information
  • Giving facts which are likely to mislead as a result of the suppression of other facts that would clarify such facts;
It appears as though you need to go back to law school -- the reliance on the misrepresentation must be reasonable or justifiable. The sales person is not deemed a fiduciary. No one can bury their head in the sand and then claim they justifiably relied upon a statement in a vacuum. Moreover, anyone who would read the disclosure info would find that the information about paying the initiation fee or activation fee is written into the T&C. Thus, it is available to them. You also seem to forget that timeshare sales have statutory rescission timeframes to allow those who sign the purchase contract to actually review the paperwork and rescind should they so desire.
 

davidvel

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It appears as though you need to go back to law school -- the reliance on the misrepresentation must be reasonable or justifiable. The sales person is not deemed a fiduciary. No one can bury their head in the sand and then claim they justifiably relied upon a statement in a vacuum. Moreover, anyone who would read the disclosure info would find that the information about paying the initiation fee or activation fee is written into the T&C. Thus, it is available to them. You also seem to forget that timeshare sales have statutory rescission timeframes to allow those who sign the purchase contract to actually review the paperwork and rescind should they so desire.
Wrong again counselor. Fiduciary not required for these forms of fraud, and I never said reasonable reliance was not necessary. I am not teaching a full law school torts class here, just giving examples of the types of conduct that could qualify as deceit/fraudulent inducement in a contractual setting (though I did Amjur contracts, and nearly did in Torts.)

Yes, a party to a contract is obligated to disclose facts material to a transaction that it knows the other party does not know; further they cannot assert facts that are made not wholly accurate by omitting other facts (your scenario about resale "restrictions.")

No, they would not receive any info on qualifying resales if they bought from the developer. They would not learn that the salesperson omitted these facts material to the transaction, namely that $3/point makes them the same as the developer sold points.

They would not receive disclosures stating they could buy those resale points that the salesperson claimed were inferior, for half (all in) the sales price form MVC, and they would be exactly the same, contrary to what the salesperson stated as fact.
 

cubigbird

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I stopped reading at “I was told in the presentation…”. Sales lips were moving. They are getting more and more creative!
 
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