Former Wyndham Sales Rep Answering Questions

[chapjim]

I've read the entire 9 pages. There is a ton of collective great information here. Lots of acronyms here and I am a newbie to the site, but I have been to a few presentations.
Here's the scenario:

I have legit access (transferring deeds) to convert deeded weeks from Shell to points at Wyndham. If I do the conversion, I will be at the Founder's level. The weeks were bought as resale, I think, but during the last presentations they shared that everything would convert and I would be at the Founders level. Several sales people had 'jaw dropping' responses to the points I would have. I assumed that was a sales tactic, but I do believe them when they said I would be at founders level.

Question/Confirmation 1: What is the cheapest way I can buy the points I need to convert these weeks to gain these VIP benefits? Is the only way via retail at one of the presentations? It seems there are other ways which might be cheaper but result in all of the same bonus things. I think I read about HitchHiker71 saying she'd user her "insert the program here" to try to get a spot at the new Grandy CO resort. And that "insert the program here" was only available if purchased at Wyndham directly. (And I would love to go to that Granby resort, too!) I didn't understand the Piggy back thing, but is it worth it to travel to the one place that is doing that?

Question 2: Once I have all these points, can I reserve specific weeks, then 'sell' them myself on a site like TUG2? Is that what the guest check in is? I know I have to report the revenue - no problem there.

I am learning a ton here. Thanks everyone!
Thanks in advance.
Please discuss.

By "sell," I presume you mean "rent." Yes, technically you can do that but you run the very great risk of getting on Wyndham's list of owners who are engaged in "commercial use." Several of us here have been fingered by Wyndam for "commercial use." I reduced my ownership by about 50% as a result and may dispose of additional contracts later in 2023.

I don't think anyone here would recommend acquiring a bunch of Wyndham points with the idea of booking and renting reservations. In that respect, we may have a different view than the typical Wyndham salesperson. I don't know what a "jaw dropping" number of points is and salespersons are pretty good at feigning a reaction. Anything to make a sale!

However, acquiring sufficient developer points to put you into the VIP Platinum or VIP Founders level can make family vacations much cheaper than otherwise. But if you go much above those levels, you may find it difficult to use all your points, depending on your particular situation.

 

[bnoble]

have legit access (transferring deeds) to convert deeded weeks from Shell to points at Wyndham. If I do the conversion, I will be at the Founder's level. The weeks were bought as resale, I think, but during the last presentations they shared that everything would convert and I would be at the Founders level.

There are a couple of options for what this might be.

1: This is a straight conversion from Shell to Wyndham. This is probably at a relatively reasonable cost. If so, it would be highly unusual for the Wyndham points to be VIP-eligible, because you are not the original owner of the Shell deeds. There have been specific situations in the past where resale conversions ended up being coded as developer points. If that happens, (a) consider yourself lucky, and (b) don't be surprised if the developer coding is later revoked.

2: This is an equity trade; you aren't converting your Shell ownership to Wyndham directly. Instead, you are trading in your Shell ownership and buying Wyndham points from the developer. This will likely be much more expensive than Option 1, but the points will definitely be eligible for status. (It's also probably not a great deal; the price of the points you are buying will be inflated to cover the "trade in" value, similar to how some car dealerships handle trade-ins.)

The real question is how much are you spending for how many VIP-qualified points? Depending on the answer that could range from "an okay deal" to "run, do not walk, in the other direction." It's also worth asking how important those VIP Founders benefits really are going to be for you. I tend to travel to high-demand locations at prime times. Those reservations have to be made well in advance, so the VIP discount really wouldn't help me very much. Likewise, the upgrades might be nice, but not really a deal maker or breaker--if I need a 2BR for my travel party to be comfortable, that's what I am going to book. I'm not going to book a 1BR and hope an upgrade comes through.

As for Question 2: As @chapjim suggests, now is not the time to start a cottage business renting Wyndham reservations. I'd encourage you to acquire only enough points that you think you might reasonably use yourself.

 

[pedro47]

Is the former Wyndham sales person still reading his thread and answering Tuggers question?

 

[billymach4]

He may be reading. He was seen yesterday according to his profile. Answers.... Time will tell.

 

[DaKats]

There are a couple of options for what this might be.

1: This is a straight conversion from Shell to Wyndham. This is probably at a relatively reasonable cost. If so, it would be highly unusual for the Wyndham points to be VIP-eligible, because you are not the original owner of the Shell deeds. There have been specific situations in the past where resale conversions ended up being coded as developer points. If that happens, (a) consider yourself lucky, and (b) don't be surprised if the developer coding is later revoked.

2: This is an equity trade; you aren't converting your Shell ownership to Wyndham directly. Instead, you are trading in your Shell ownership and buying Wyndham points from the developer. This will likely be much more expensive than Option 1, but the points will definitely be eligible for status. (It's also probably not a great deal; the price of the points you are buying will be inflated to cover the "trade in" value, similar to how some car dealerships handle trade-ins.)

The real question is how much are you spending for how many VIP-qualified points? Depending on the answer that could range from "an okay deal" to "run, do not walk, in the other direction." It's also worth asking how important those VIP Founders benefits really are going to be for you. I tend to travel to high-demand locations at prime times. Those reservations have to be made well in advance, so the VIP discount really wouldn't help me very much. Likewise, the upgrades might be nice, but not really a deal maker or breaker--if I need a 2BR for my travel party to be comfortable, that's what I am going to book. I'm not going to book a 1BR and hope an upgrade comes through.

As for Question 2: As @chapjim suggests, now is not the time to start a cottage business renting Wyndham reservations. I'd encourage you to acquire only enough points that you think you might reasonably use yourself.

Thank you bnoble & chapjim for your replies.

I agree that I need more research on just exactly what my conversion will get me, so I'll put together a personal list of questions and may bounce them off you two personally, if I may PM you. (However, it doesn't seem that my tug2 login is linked yet and I think I need that to message.
A few notes.
*I am not looking to do a cottage biz. I merely want to offset my MF and possibly gain a bit on some and go below on other listings.
*Mainly, I intend to use most of my points on myself, so only a bit will be used to allow guest check ins.
*The purchase amount will be solely to be eligible for the Founders club benefits. Correct on the discount inside of two months. I am not retired, but I can work remotely from anywhere in the world, so I will have to become adept at all the crazy ways I might be able to accomplish this.

Thank you so much for the information above from you two. I will have to really consider and understand each thing you mentioned as well as continue researching what my options are.
One more option is to keep my weeks as 2b2b condo weeks in Hawaii during prime season. Use them or rent them if I can't make it. But I fear that Wyndham will eventually start to enforce the exact weeks that I bought and that would be bad. Somehow they may find a way, but I think that the contract says 'float' in it. I must reread all.
Thank you!

 

[bnoble]

I am not looking to do a cottage biz. I merely want to offset my MF and possibly gain a bit on some and go below on other listings.

Your opinion of what is "not a cottage business" may not be the same as Wyndham's opinion. Guess whose opinion counts?

 

[Timeshare Von]

<<SNIPPED>>

Question 2: Once I have all these points, can I reserve specific weeks, then 'sell' them myself on a site like TUG2? Is that what the guest check in is? I know I have to report the revenue - no problem there.

My opinion, based on over 40 years of ownership in the timeshare world is this . . . whatever the rules are today . . . you can sure bet they will not be the same in the future. And whatever changes are made, will be to the general detriment to owners who are trying to find angles to wheel and deal with their timeshare assets. #BeenThereDoneThat

If you are buying or making financial decisions in hopes of making money or even offsetting your out-of-pocket costs to own, be very careful. It could backfire, especially if you are operating in one of the "systems" (especially) like Wyndham. If you are prepared to deal with such changes that could stop you from doing whatever it is you're considering, then I'd say go for it. But at the end of the day, you could find yourself with a lot of money invested and no way to get the ROI to cover what you've done/spent.

P.S. Did you know that back in the 80's, if you made a spacebank deposit into RCI and your deposited week did not get picked up by an exchange 30 days prior to the check-in date, you would get your deposited week back to use yourself? That was a really nice benefit . . . especially if you lived close to your timeshare. Living in NoVA and owning in the Poconos, I was able to take advantage of this program feature once, which was like getting a bonus because I had the week to exchange (we went to Florida) and I got my week back for a nice fall trip to the mountains later that same year.

 

[Jan M.]

*I am not looking to do a cottage biz. I merely want to offset my MF and possibly gain a bit on some and go below on other listings.
*Mainly, I intend to use most of my points on myself, so only a bit will be used to allow guest check ins.
*The purchase amount will be solely to be eligible for the Founders club benefits. Correct on the discount inside of two months. I am not retired, but I can work remotely from anywhere in the world, so I will have to become adept at all the crazy ways I might be able to accomplish this.

Your situation is ideal for timeshares. DH also had a great deal of flexibility. We had more nights in the timeshares than most people who are retired do. Since he retired in early 2018 each year our number of nights in the timeshares keeps growing. In 2022 it was 233 nights!

The changes of past two years have put an end to the glory days of renting. It's safe to say that those days aren't coming back. Do not count on renting to cover any of your maintenance fees.  If you're able to rent consider it a fortuitous windfall. If you list your stays on any of the public rental sites, use any Wyndham stock pictures, use more than a certain percentage of your points for reservations with guest names on them (we don't know the actual %) or use too many guest confirmations you'll risk getting the certified letter from Wyndham. It says you have been identified as engaging in commercial renting and there will be consequences if you continue. Some owners have or are currently experiencing the consequences. You don't want that!

 

[cbyrne1174]

Your situation is ideal for timeshares. DH also had a great deal of flexibility. We had more nights in the timeshares than most people who are retired do. Since he retired in early 2018 each year our number of nights in the timeshares keeps growing. In 2022 it was 233 nights!

The changes of past two years have put an end to the glory days of renting. It's safe to say that those days aren't coming back. Do not count on renting to cover any of your maintenance fees.  If you're able to rent consider it a fortuitous windfall. If you list your stays on any of the public rental sites, use any Wyndham stock pictures, use more than a certain percentage of your points for reservations with guest names on them (we don't know the actual %) or use too many guest confirmations you'll risk getting the certified letter from Wyndham. It says you have been identified as engaging in commercial renting and there will be consequences if you continue. Some owners have or are currently experiencing the consequences. You don't want that!

I agree with Jan. The only safe renting is with people you actually know. For example, I live near Bonnet Creek and if I have extra points, I would probably just find a friend/coworker to slip me the cash to cover the MF once I've checked in for them at BC. No guest cert used.

 

[DaKats]

Such great information, everyone. Thank you all for your responses.
A few items in summary of feedback are:
-- Seriously consider the overall cost and determine if I want the burden if I never 'rent' anything.
-- Try to determine exactly what my points will 'get' me once they are fully in my possession after gaining full ownership of my weeks (costs not withstanding) and then buying developer points so I can partake in the level of benefits buying from the developer would afford me. In other words, be sure the level I think I will get will be the actual level I will get.
-- Also try to discern if I convert to points that those points are eligible to the 'give it back to us' and walk away from your MF world. (Understanding nothing is ever free and that this would likely change to be less favorable, since all things do.)
-- Don't think I can work the system to cover or even slightly offset my MFs. Assume I cannot.
-- Not that it was mentioned in this area, but Wyndham has a "We'll take the week off your hands and rent it for you for a fee and you will collect 50% of what we subsequently collect." Program. So a legit way to try to rent the week(s). However, as Timeshare Von mentioned, now, you don't get that back if they don't rent it as was the case in the 80's!
-- Sharing your time shares with friends without expectation of compensation is the best. And maybe they will gift you with something that is nicely worthy of the money you had invested in that time.

Good news is I have a bit of time before I have to really decide what to do. Mainly, I have to decide if I want to take ownership of some deeded time share weeks - accepting them for the value they hold exactly right now and what exit options I have (likely none!).

Thanks again - I may start another thread since I stole this one. Please follow me if you'd like to help me further or if you would allow a Private Message from me, please PM me or let me know here. (I'm supposed to have that ability, but my accounts for BBG and tug2 haven't synched, if i understand my limitation correctly.)

 

[DaKats]

@RowdyRiner
Sorry for the heist.

Question for bringing back on track RowdyRiner's intent. RowdyRiner if you are still hanging out on this thread or others:
If I own Shell vacay deeded weeks (like week 52, 2, 7, 9, etc.- Q1-ish, high season), which were likely bought from an individual, and I buy whatever minimum points I can from Wyndham directly (or Developer?) to gain the access to privileges, (Question 1 what do you think the chances are of 'swapping' those weeks to points via Wyndham & ending up with the amount of points the salesperson says I'll end up with?

I've gone through the presentation and they say I'll end up with X amount of points. But I didn't see that in the written contract (which I rescinded). I saw no reference to maintenance fees nor to the points I would have. Apparently the only thing that was really shared was my contract for the purchase of points, as far as I can tell.

Questions:
2- Should there be a contract for the swap of weeks to get points - exactly how many and if they are eligible for 'status'?
3- Should there be a contract for the maintenance fees I should now expect for the future? (Even though I'm sure there is a clause for these fees to be adjusted.)
4- Can I request immediate hard copies of everything I sign?
5- How do I keep the team from immediately opening a Credit Card Account?
6 - If I keep the weeks, just as they are, with the two year reservation window at my own resort, no 'tradeseys' to other resorts available at all, do you think Wyndham will do anything to damage what I have with Shell eventually?

We've established in this thread that Sales practices aren't always on the up and up.
7. How do I best manage the process so I am not taken advantage of?
Thank you so much.

To my new friends & all potential new friends - I understand that I shouldn't expect much, please let me know if there are any positives to what & how I might do things with what I have.

 

[Mr. Phil]

If in a position to purchase additional Select Points which location would be best to purchase, taking into consideration maintenance fees.

 

[SteveinHNL]

What is the contractual basis for Wyndham’s prohibition on owners renting their points? Is that prohibition in folks’ purchase contracts?

 

[WManning]

If in a position to purchase additional Select Points which location would be best to purchase, taking into consideration maintenance fees.

Bali, Canterbury and National Harbor are often mentioned on low end. See attached doc for all.

Wyndham HOA Maint. Fees - History - Google Drive

docs.google.com

Document pulled from following thread.

Official 2023 Maintenance Fee Thread

All ... Creating our official 2023 MF thread where TUGGERs can post about and discuss the "2023 HOA Maintenance Fees" ... IF you want to see the Historical (year over year) Chart of HOA Maintenance Fees collected for the Resorts, CLICK HERE I will periodically check replies on this thread and...

tugbbs.com

 

[WManning]

What is the contractual basis for Wyndham’s prohibition on owners renting their points? Is that prohibition in folks’ purchase contracts?

Wyndham has the right to change Club rules and enforce existing rules, End of story!

 

[bnoble]

What is the contractual basis for Wyndham’s prohibition on owners renting their points? Is that prohibition in folks’ purchase contracts?

This has been discussed many times in the Wyndham forum. The short answer: there is a prohibition against "commercial use." My most recent conversion contract includes a clause to this effect in the Buyer's Acknowledgement. The contract also states that the use is subject to the rules in the "directories and disclosure materials" which (a) can change and (b) have included a prohibition against "commercial use" for quite a long time now.

It is fair to say that not everyone agrees with Wyndham's interpretation of these clauses, but that probably does not matter.

 

[SteveinHNL]

This has been discussed many times in the Wyndham forum. The short answer: there is a prohibition against "commercial use." My most recent conversion contract includes a clause to this effect in the Buyer's Acknowledgement. The contract also states that the use is subject to the rules in the "directories and disclosure materials" which (a) can change and (b) have included a prohibition against "commercial use" for quite a long time now.

It is fair to say that not everyone agrees with Wyndham's interpretation of these clauses, but that probably does not matter.

Right, but where does the prohibition against commercial use come from? I understand you are saying the more recent contracts include that language. But is it in contracts for people who have been with Wyndham for a long period of time like the Rick and Cindy types of owners? There is a significance to the notion that this language is being put into contracts now, because those parties will be on notice from the time of purchase that there are restrictions. But were all owners on notice of this at the time they entered into their contracts with Wyndham? Or was this simply "added into the mix" at a later date and arbitrarily by Wyndham?

 

[bnoble]

I believe I gave you a complete answer. There may be a more complete answer but I’m not going to go looking for it.

 

[SteveinHNL]

I believe I gave you a complete answer. There may be a more complete answer but I’m not going to go looking for it.

Totally understand. Thanks for the info you did provide! I have no iron in the fire as I don't own Wyndham but the lawyer part of me doesn't understand how this type of prohibition can be arbitrarily and uniformly imposed on owners who were not put on notice of this restriction when they bought the product.

 

[paxsarah]

Right, but where does the prohibition against commercial use come from?

To make a long story short, I believe all/most contracts have language referring to the provisions of the Fairshare trust agreement. The Fairshare trust agreement has language referring to the provisions of the Member Directory (and also indicates that directory may be updated by Wyndham as it deems necessary). And the directory has the prohibition against commercial use (in the current version, in the middle of page 340). So in signing the contract, one agrees to the provisions of the trust agreement, through the trust agreement to the directory, and also the fact that it may be updated by Wyndham - so as directory provisions change, owners continue to be subject to it.

 

[sponger76]

Totally understand. Thanks for the info you did provide! I have no iron in the fire as I don't own Wyndham but the lawyer part of me doesn't understand how this type of prohibition can be arbitrarily and uniformly imposed on owners who were not put on notice of this restriction when they bought the product.

It's actually a fairly common restriction in the timeshare industry. Lots of the major companies have a prohibition against commercial use in their purchase contracts, going back for a very long time. What muddies the waters is that many of those companies do not specifically define commercial use, giving them some leeway. Some do specifically say no renting, and others prohibit commercial use but also say you can rent as long as it is your home unit/resort and not an exchange or points booking. In those cases, a common consensus (not subscribed to by all) amongst TUG users seems to be that those timeshare companies are ok with occasionally renting because you have an off year where you can't actually stay, but don't want you to be running a for-profit vacation rental business using their resorts.

Further muddying the waters is that salespeople at these same companies will still use renting ability as a selling point, even when the contract says you can't.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Totally understand. Thanks for the info you did provide! I have no iron in the fire as I don't own Wyndham but the lawyer part of me doesn't understand how this type of prohibition can be arbitrarily and uniformly imposed on owners who were not put on notice of this restriction when they bought the product.

We have had multiple reports from owners going as far back as far as the early 2000’s that commercial use restrictions are either directly included in the contracts signed, or verbiage along the line of what @bnoble provided that reference the directories and/or other supporting materials as germane to the contract. I’m no lawyer, but it seems as is Wyndham is fairly well covered in this area from a legal standpoint - as it doesn’t seem as if any class actions or other lawsuits have had success proving otherwise to date.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tabowers215]

I'm a former Wyndham Sales Rep and I'm trying to fill my down time at work so I am here to answer any questions related to Wyndham Sales. I am not here to promote anything. I am just bored and wanting to answer truthfully. I gain nothing from this except the joy of clearing the air for some confused owners.

Greetings Rowdy! I have gotten myself into a situation where I have signed for a contract that I am not capable of paying. It was in December, at North Myrtle Beach. They did a bait and switch, or should I say, ADD! I now have two contracts that have monthly payments double my house payment. I submitted the rescind documents, but it was outside the time period. I'm not looking at getting out all together, but need something I can live with. Where would I start?

 

[tabowers215]

Yes those are all the typical objections and here is typical response that starts the selling.

1) I/we can't afford it. Because you don't have the programs to offset cost that were offered last time you bought. Why didn't you take advantage when you could have?

2) I/we don't have $20,000 (or whatever the cost is) right now. You're already paying that. It's the same money.

3) I/we can buy the same thing resale for a fraction of the cost (see E-Bay, Craigslist, TUG, Red Week, etc.). You don't get VIP benefits with resale.

4) I/we can rent from existing owners for less than the annual MFs. Or you could rent yours and it pays for itself. Self-sustaining Ownership.

5) I/we don't travel very often. Then how are you here now if that's true?

The whole purpose/ process to sell to an owner is "Finding the pain". Make them feel they were sold wrong package before and show them how you can fix it without costing them anymore money.

That is what happened to me! "You have 2 contracts! One is bad! We can combine them." And they also added another contract, so I still have two, and the price is nearly triple!

 

[tabowers215]

I am a Newbie here, and so wish I were a member before getting myself in the situation I am now.
I am looking for some guidance on what I should do next. Yes, what I did was dumb! I beat myself up everyday over it.
I tried to rescind but was past 5 days. The cost and payments are simply more than I can afford, and I can't seem to get anyone at Wyndham to help. I have canceled the credit cards my original payments were coming from. I'm sure I'll hear something when they stop getting money.
Who can I call?
Should I get an attorney?
As I mentioned, I'm not looking at getting out all together, but have something I can live with.