First Lawsuit filed against Viking Ship LLCs / PCCs

[Ridewithme38]

Around here you can take your smaller boats right to the town dump and leave it there....This town dump is paid for by everyones taxes...How dare they let you take your responsibility and dump it off on everyone else!

Actually, the garbage dump is a fair comparison...When you are done with your garbage, that was holey your responsibility and leave it at the curb where it gets brought to the town dump, where it is now everyones responsiblity

 

[VivianLynne]

Around here you can take your smaller boats right to the town dump and leave it there....This town dump is paid for by everyones taxes...How dare they let you take your responsibility and dump it off on everyone else!

Actually, the garbage dump is a fair comparison...When you are done with your garbage, that was holey your responsibility and leave it at the curb where it gets brought to the town dump, where it is now everyones responsiblity

Ride,
You caught that Beefnot is from LAX -- like boats around here sit in backyards UNUSED for years. The trailers are more marketable than the old boats.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Ride,
You caught that Beefnot is from LAX -- like boats around here sit in backyards UNUSED for years. The trailers are more marketable than the old boats.

Ahh, so the boat comparision doesn't fit at all with getting rid of a timeshare...the trailers and maybe parts of the boat HAVE value

 

[timeos2]

Sorry but that's a pretty silly comparison. A boat can easily be sold to another party, sold for scrap, or given away. A mud week at timeshare in Breckenridge not so much.

Ok - since people seem to want to focus on the silly example of a boat, used solely to demonstrate that personal property is NOT the communities worry to find a buyer / sales venue for - lets use one that really does exist.

How many owners of property in Detroit or many other central cities have property they cannot sell? Is it up to the community at large to buy it or even take the ownership, operate and maintain it? No. Of course it may be FORECLOSED on for unpaid fees (taxes) but no city or town or state is required to accept ownership and relieve the owner of all responsibility or guarantee it's sale to a new taker.

Why are some so set that somehow timeshare is a different "thing" than any other property? It has a somewhat different method of purchase and use rights. But the base property rights are the same as that now unwanted and worthless lot in central Detroit that used to be a productive factory producing income, rent & auto products. Hard times hit and the unfortunate owner wants out! We should all accept that into our names via an Association / HOA and pay while he walks away, no? That is the same exact concept but on a larger scale.

House, boat, condo, industrial property or timeshare no one has a guarantee that when they want it - whatever "it" is including timeshare - will have a value and will sell. Nothing and no one has that guarantee.

 

[timeos2]

No I'm not. I was not disputing the asset itself. I was disputing the analogy about ownership and fiduciary responsibility.

You are shadowboxing. What does the size of the slice or whether owners must take back something have to do with comparing a co-owned real asset to a wholly owned boat? Don't change the subject of debate from your silly analogy.

?? Who's shadow boxing? Show me in any law anywhere that states that a deeded timeshare is somehow a different than a condo or other co-op type building. There is none as there is no difference.

Don't believe me - read it here in a very consumer readable book covering all types of HOA based properties. Timeshares are included as just another version of the traditional condo. In Florida they are even under the same regulations / laws (Sections 718 & 721). Trying to make timeshares somehow immune to the rules and standards is truly grasping at straws. They are a property just like any other and subject to the rules & regs.

 

[Ridewithme38]

House, boat, condo, industrial property or timeshare no one has a guarantee that when they want it - whatever "it" is including timeshare - will have a value and will sell. Nothing and no one has that guarantee.

But you're not putting a solution out...What do you expect people to do who can't sell or give away their timeshare and can't afford a foreclosure on their credit?

You can't just ignore the problem, it's getting bigger every day...it could even happen with YOUR ownerships!

Maybe thats what has to happen? What would YOU do? Cypress Pointe puts up a $50,000 Special Assessment, no ones going to pay that, so you can't even give it away...You are getting older and need a good credit history to move into an 'assisted living' facility....What would you do?

 

[timeos2]

But you're not putting a solution out...What do you expect people to do who can't sell or give away their timeshare and can't afford a foreclosure on their credit?

You can't just ignore the problem, it's getting bigger every day...it could even happen with YOUR ownerships!

Maybe thats what has to happen? What would YOU do? Cypress Pointe puts up a $50,000 Special Assessment, no ones going to pay that, so you can't even give it away...You are getting older and need a good credit history to move into an 'assisted living' facility....What would you do?

And you refuse to answer the question what if the exact same thing happens to a property that isn't a timeshare? Property that cannot be given away? They suffer a foreclosure as that is the penalty if you don't pay the fees or taxes or loan due.

When you bought you took the risk that someday you might not want / couldn't afford the ownership. You also took a chance that it might not have a market to be resold. Timeshare or condo in depressed Detroit the end result is the same - you have an "asset" that costs you ongoing to own and that no one wants at any price. If you walk away from paying you pay the cost (a credit hit / foreclosure). That is how it works. Timeshare isn't immune. That's the point. You're trying to create an exception that does not exist.

 

[VegasBella]

Legally a timeshare may be similar to other property ownership. But practically a timeshare is more similar to a gym membership than a condo.

 

[timeos2]

Legally a timeshare may be similar to other property ownership. But practically a timeshare is more similar to a gym membership than a condo.

Legal is all that counts when push comes to court. And collections. And this is deeded timeshare, not some RTU or Club/Trust revokable non-deeded membership. Those would have totally different outcomes as they are contracts not recorded property ownership. For good or bad timeshare deeds are the same as a deed to a million dollar Miami oceanfront condo. The law treats them no differently.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Legal is all that counts when push comes to court. And collections. And this is deeded timeshare, not some RTU or Club/Trust revokable non-deeded membership. Those would have totally different outcomes as they are contracts not recorded property ownership. For good or bad timeshare deeds are the same as a deed to a million dollar Miami oceanfront condo. The law treats them no differently.

Don't forget, in most cases, these deeds are fully owned, with no mortgages...What you are actually walking away from is just the HOA membership...Just like a Gym membership...

 

[VegasBella]

Legal is all that counts when push comes to court. And collections. And this is deeded timeshare, not some RTU or Club/Trust revokable non-deeded membership. Those would have totally different outcomes as they are contracts not recorded property ownership. For good or bad timeshare deeds are the same as a deed to a million dollar Miami oceanfront condo. The law treats them no differently.

And it is currently legal to transfer timeshare ownerships to PCCs. Whatever the PCCs do with timeshares they can't sell may or may not be legal.

Most of the discussion in this thread has been about the morality, not legality, of owners' transferring their timeshares to PCCs. It's been framed as though it's a legal issue but it is not a legal issue. Owners can and will dispose of their unwanted timeshares through the use of PCCs.

 

[Beefnot]

?? Who's shadow boxing? Show me in any law anywhere that states that a deeded timeshare is somehow a different than a condo or other co-op type building. There is none as there is no difference.

Don't believe me - read it here in a very consumer readable book covering all types of HOA based properties. Timeshares are included as just another version of the traditional condo. In Florida they are even under the same regulations / laws (Sections 718 & 721). Trying to make timeshares somehow immune to the rules and standards is truly grasping at straws. They are a property just like any other and subject to the rules & regs.

By shadowboxing, I'm referring to you countering a point that I was not raising. You were shadowboxing with yourself. I was speaking to your specious logic around this neighbors-boat business. When debating someone, I appreciate it when my opponent debates the points at issue in this debate, not obfuscate with other random arguments, whether such arguments have merit or not in some other debate.

 

[DeniseM]

Owners can and will dispose of their unwanted timeshares through the use of PCCs.

PCC = Post Card Company - this is simply a timeshare related business that contacts timeshare owners to solicit business. They may be reputable, or not.

Upfront Fee Company = this is a company that charges a large upfront fee to sell or rent your timeshare - some are Legit, but most are not.

Viking Ship LLC = this is a company that will "take your timeshare off your hands for a fee," with the full intention of bankrupting the LLC and abandoning the deed.

These 3 terms are not interchangeable. Most Viking Ships LLC's are PCC's, but most PCC's are not Viking Ship LLC's.

 

[timeos2]

And it is currently legal to transfer timeshare ownerships to PCCs. Whatever the PCCs do with timeshares they can't sell may or may not be legal.

Most of the discussion in this thread has been about the morality, not legality, of owners' transferring their timeshares to PCCs. It's been framed as though it's a legal issue but it is not a legal issue. Owners can and will dispose of their unwanted timeshares through the use of PCCs.

Not necessarily true if the "transfer" was thought or known to be fraudulent from the start. Thus we come full circle.

Understand the scope of the problem - unwanted ownerships due to any number of legitimate or personal reasons, as well as not so legitimate ones - in the world of timeshares and the HOA's that operate them for the owners is much larger as a total of ownerships than say a full ownership condo as there are many more timeshare owners. And many of those may have bought under less than fully informed conditions. So it effects timeshare owners far more than a full condo association would normally feel.

It behooves every timeshare HOA and Board to be proactive with it even if today they don't have a problem. Even the top name owners are going to age and eventually want / need to sell and if those Associations are forced to accept ownerships back they too will face the same issues as some Independents do now. It cannot be predicted how long or for what any timeshare will sell. And any ownerships that go into legal limbo, often created by PCC's or Viking ship operations, that may prevent or make too costly even foreclosing to get clear title are a big problem sooner or later. Especially if the day comes that a resort truly DOES want to disband. If too many of those ownerships exist they may not be able to get the legal votes required to do so. The "solution", as some call it, may actually thwart efforts to end a timeshare resort legally. It really would create that "forever" bond of owners to a place they no longer desire to own or operate.

The fallacy of these so called "solutions" and the supposed pressure they allegedly would create to end the affected resorts are no solution at all. If a resort finds they have too many owners looking to deed back, delinquent or in foreclosure then they need to study how to properly liquidate. Placing ownerships in legal no mans land may very well make it impossible to raise the funds needed to even accomplish that sometimes needed end result. It does no one any good to try to beat the system. The only ones benefiting are those taking money to create the Viking ship or PCC scam from the desperate owners. Talk about leeches. If there is going to be an Owner uprising that is the group that it needs to be against. In fact that is occurring as the word gets out. Paying owners that like their resort and the concept of timeshare are rising up. And it seems to be troubling them (the PCC / Viking groups) as it should.

 

[timeos2]

By shadowboxing, I'm referring to you countering a point that I was not raising. You were shadowboxing with yourself. I was speaking to your specious logic around this neighbors-boat business. When debating someone, I appreciate it when my opponent debates the points at issue in this debate, not obfuscate with other random arguments, whether such arguments have merit or not in some other debate.

Then concentrate on the facts. What says a timeshare deed is different than any other deed to property and gets special treatment or consideration all others don't?

 

[Fredm]

PCC = Post Card Company - this is simply a timeshare related business that contacts timeshare owners to solicit business. They may be reputable, or not.

Upfront Fee Company = this is a company that charges a large upfront fee to sell or rent your timeshare - some are Legit, but most are not.

Viking Ship LLC = this is a company that will "take your timeshare off your hands for a fee," with the full intention of bankrupting the LLC and abandoning the deed.

These 3 terms are not interchangeable. Most Viking Ships LLC's are PCC's, but most PCC's are not Viking Ship LLC's.

I think a more accurate description is:

PCC is a company that will promise to take your timeshare off your hands for a fee. Deception and stretching the truth is commonplace.

A Viking Ship is where PCC's put the timeshares that cannot otherwise be disposed of.

 

[Beefnot]

Then concentrate on the facts. What says a timeshare deed is different than any other deed to property and gets special treatment or consideration all others don't?

Ok, if you want me to address a separate point that had nothing to do with our debate about your correlating neighbors who have no interest in or responsibility to your personal property with owner or an HOA who do, then sure I will comment on this nonsequitur. I don't know what says a timeshare deed is different than any other deed to property and gets special treatment or consideration all others don't. As for who says it, there are a number of people in this thread evidently.

 

[DeniseM]

Fred - I believe there is a clear distinction between these terms:

Not all PCC's are offering to "take your timeshare off your hands" - many of them are soliciting rentals.

Not all PCC's are Viking Ships.

So we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Beefnot]

Fred - I believe there is a clear distinction between these terms:

Not all PCC's are offering to "take your timeshare off your hands" - many of them are soliciting rentals.

Not all PCC's are Viking Ships.

So we will have to agree to disagree.

I doubt that Fred would disagree with your point about PCCs soliciting rentals. I understood his clarification to be that Viking Ships are a vehicle for PCCs to discard unsaleable inventory.

One interesting curiosity is whether the distinction between strategically having "full intention of bankrupting the LLC and abandoning the deed" and tactically abandoning what "cannot otherwise be disposed of" makes much difference at the end of the day.

 

[DeniseM]

I am not an attorney, and I don't play one on TV, but Tuggers who are attorneys have posted that it is against the law to create an LLC with the intent of bankrupting it.

So I believe there is a difference...YMMV

Now someone is going to post that "I" can't prove that a Viking Ship Co. intended to bankrupt their LLC, and no "I" can't, because "I" am not an attorney, judge, or jury. But in a civil case, I am sure that intent could be proven.

Now we are going to get some more "the end justifies the means posts."

 

[Beefnot]

I am not an attorney, and I don't play one on TV, but Tuggers who are attorneys have posted that it is against the law to create an LLC with the intent of bankrupting it.

So I believe there is a difference...YMMV

Based on what you just wrote, sounds like there is not a difference. Whether I knew from jump that I was going to bankrupt a property or I later discovered that I could not dispose of the property, I would have created the Viking Ship LLC for the express purpose of bankrupting whatever property I could not, or never intended to, sell.

 

[DeniseM]

But what if you deed hundreds of deeds to a series of LLC's, and bankrupt all of them, and never attempted to sell any of them - isn't that clear evidence of intent?

 

[Beefnot]

But what if you deed hundreds of deeds to a series of LLC's, and bankrupt all of them, and never attempted to sell any of them - isn't that clear evidence of intent?

Absolutely. The point I raised was around the intent at the point of solicitation (strategic intent) or the intent at the point of failure to sell/transfer (tactical intent). Either way, the end result is the same, flipping the property into a Viking Ship. So that was my ponderance, is it ultimately a distinction without much difference. Whether I flip something into a Viking Ship "with the full intention [at the point of solicitation from the owner] of bankrupting the LLC and abandoning the deed" (DeniseM) or because it could not "otherwise be disposed of" (Fredm), I did so with the intent to default on that property.

 

[DeniseM]

I am talking about the intent of the LLC - not the owner.

 

[Beefnot]

I am talking about the intent of the LPCC - not the owner.

yes, so am I. Only talking about the PCC.

Viking Ship LLC = this is a company that will "take your timeshare off your hands for a fee," with the full intention of bankrupting the LLC and abandoning the deed.

A Viking Ship is where PCC's put the timeshares that cannot otherwise be disposed of.

Regardless of distinction, intent for the use of that LLC and the end result is same.