Ebay pricing not reflective of true resale value

[ampaholic]

eBay seems to be the honest market - where for the most part everything is on the up and up what you pay is 1 dollar more than the next person is willing to pay.

Also apparently Redweek is a dishonest market.

Sort of like when DELTA airlines has to buy a part from Boeing and Boeing "fibs" the price so as to charge $800 for a $20 toilet seat.

So, to say Redweek is an honest view of the market value of a TS is saying $800 is the proper price for toilet seats?

 

[Conan]

If we could avoid the personality issues and moralizing, we could get to the real issue as to timesharing, that eBay is a bargain basement which is good for buying, but is not the best for selling because it will usually get you less that what other markets would, especially on a good week. That is the real take away from this thread.

Carolinian makes excellent points, regarding timeshare markets and also regarding the unfortunate trend for threads like this one to be cluttered with personality issues and other noise.

I used to think TUG's fairly strict moderation was antithetical to notions of free speech, our being adults here, etc., but I've changed my view.

I would be happy if the Moderators would be more agressive in shutting down threads when the personal insults start to appear.

 

[AwayWeGo]

So Maybe eBay Prices Do Represent True Market Value After All.

eBay seems to be the honest market - where for the most part everything is on the up and up what you pay is 1 dollar more than the next person is willing to pay.

Also apparently Redweek is a dishonest market.

Sort of like when DELTA airlines has to buy a part from Boeing and Boeing "fibs" the price so as to charge $800 for a $20 toilet seat.

So, to say Redweek is an honest view of the market value of a TS is saying $800 is the proper price for toilet seats?

I have loads of eBay experience -- timeshare & otherwise (mostly otherwise). Whatever else I can say about eBay, at least it's transparent & honest.

I have zero experience with RedWeek, but if you say it's not an honest marketplace, I can accept that.

That being the case, maybe eBay prices really are the true indicator of resale timeshare market values after all.

By me, savvy timeshare buyers would be more apt to shop eBay than anywhere else, even while the sharp sellers are looking to connect with unsavvy buyers elsewhere. That being the case (if it's the case -- I don't know), the undistorted & unvarnished & stripped-to-basics market value would be reflected in eBay completed sale prices, not the amounts the less savvy get inveigled into paying at those other venues.

Meanwhile, even though eBay timeshare prices are still way down, eBay horn prices are inching upward. In years past, I could (& did) buy any number of decent Conn 6Ds & Amati-Kraslice AHR-343s, etc., in the range of $67.89 & $152.52 + shipping. Those days are gone. My most recent eBay horn -- a semi-ruined but restorable Yamaha double -- cost in the neighborhood of $130 + shipping. Now more 6Ds & comparable double horns are now going in the $500 - $1,500 range -- OK for buying to play but not so good for buying to flip. So it goes.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ronparise]

There has always been a notion that ebay reflects the true resale costs of a timeshare. I've argued against the notion but it was easy for the others to challenge me because they had plenty of examples from ebay to promote their position and those that beleived otherwise don't so it was a very one-sided argument.

Well I can say in my recent ebay is clearly a buyer's market and doesn't come close to reflecting true resale value. MY cases in point, involved the Marriott Grande Ocean Gold OF weeks I bought on ebay for $7500. After purchasing, for a test I listed on Redweek.com the same unit at $9250, then $11,250, then $12500, then $13250. I received almost immediate offers at each price point and from ifferent people and just recently agreed to sell at the $13,250 price point.

So in a matter of a few months I flipped a ebay purchase for a few dollars. Actually to avoid tax implications I'm officially selling the unit I bought in 2007 for $13,800 and keeping the 2 OF Gold units recently purchased on ebay.

good for you a classic arbitrage play

I used to buy soft drinks at Costco by the case, put them in vending machines and sell them for a buck. Whats market value? The dollar I sold them for or the 35 cents I paid?

The fact is that there are two markets and two market prices.

Now tell me that you do 10 of these a month and make your living doing it and Ill be impressed.

 

[Carolinian]

Why is Red Week a dishonest market?

And when you get down to it, a high percentage of resale buyers are buying to use, and they tend to go where there are more local options than eBay. The buy to use market has held up better than the buy to exchange market, which seems to be a high proportion of eBay's market. Overall, the market for timeshare is more many local markets than it is one national market.

Look at the local deed transfers to tell what the real timeshare market is in any area, and if you are familar with the area, looking at who prepared the deeds can often tell you the venue the week was sold in. For the OBX, for example, I can recognize the local attorney used for closings by the local t/s broker, the HOA attorneys, and the out of state closing companies used by the eBay sellers.

eBay seems to be the honest market - where for the most part everything is on the up and up what you pay is 1 dollar more than the next person is willing to pay.

Also apparently Redweek is a dishonest market.

Sort of like when DELTA airlines has to buy a part from Boeing and Boeing "fibs" the price so as to charge $800 for a $20 toilet seat.

So, to say Redweek is an honest view of the market value of a TS is saying $800 is the proper price for toilet seats?

 

[Carolinian]

eBay sales are to the timeshare market what foreclosure sales at the courthouse door are to residential real estate sales. They are a floor, rather than any mid-market indicator.

I have loads of eBay experience -- timeshare & otherwise (mostly otherwise). Whatever else I can say about eBay, at least it's transparent & honest.

I have zero experience with RedWeek, but if you say it's not an honest marketplace, I can accept that.

That being the case, maybe eBay prices really are the true indicator of resale timeshare market values after all.

By me, savvy timeshare buyers would be more apt to shop eBay than anywhere else, even while the sharp sellers are looking to connect with unsavvy buyers elsewhere. That being the case (if it's the case -- I don't know), the undistorted & unvarnished & stripped-to-basics market value would be reflected in eBay completed sale prices, not the amounts the less savvy get inveigled into paying at those other venues.

Meanwhile, even though eBay timeshare prices are still way down, eBay horn prices are inching upward. In years past, I could (& did) buy any number of decent Conn 6Ds & Amati-Kraslice AHR-343s, etc., in the range of $67.89 & $152.52 + shipping. Those days are gone. My most recent eBay horn -- a semi-ruined but restorable Yamaha double -- cost in the neighborhood of $130 + shipping. Now more 6Ds & comparable double horns are now going in the $500 - $1,500 range -- OK for buying to play but not so good for buying to flip. So it goes.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Ridewithme38]

eBay sales are to the timeshare market what foreclosure sales at the courthouse door are to residential real estate sales. They are a floor, rather than any mid-market indicator.

This would be true...IF there were hundreds of more foreclosure sales across the country then regular home sales...The thing with Ebay is if you look at the whole country...or the whole TS market...it IS the market...no where compares to the amount of listings or even sales it makes on a daily basis...Sure you can pull it out of context and pick a tiny area that doesn't apply to...but thats the exception and not the rule...the rule is, Ebay is the market, everything else is just too small to compare

 

[tombo]

good for you a classic arbitrage play

I used to buy soft drinks at Costco by the case, put them in vending machines and sell them for a buck. Whats market value? The dollar I sold them for or the 35 cents I paid?

The fact is that there are two markets and two market prices.

Now tell me that you do 10 of these a month and make your living doing it and Ill be impressed.

Not the same thing. You didn't advertise the cokes for sale for 35 cents with no intention of ever selling them for that price just to get a feel for the market. You did not raise the price to 75 cents with no intention of selling them for 75 cents either. People did not come to you and try to buy a coke for the price you advertised only to have you refuse to sell them the cokes for your supposed selling price and then have you lie to them about the reason you wouldn't sell them for the asking price.

You bought them for 30 cents, advertised them for $1, and sold them for $1. Nothing wrong with that. However advertising a product for sale at a price you would never actually sell it for is FRAUD! Lying about why you wouldn't sell it when someone wants to buy it for the advertised price is committing another fraud, lie, and misrepresentation. Nothing impressive about that IMO.

 

[ampaholic]

Carolinian makes excellent points, regarding timeshare markets and also regarding the unfortunate trend for threads like this one to be cluttered with personality issues and other noise.

I used to think TUG's fairly strict moderation was antithetical to notions of free speech, our being adults here, etc., but I've changed my view.

I would be happy if the Moderators would be more agressive in shutting down threads when the personal insults start to appear.

I would imagine Daniel Patrick Moynihan is rolling in his grave ... you really don't think everyone is entitled to his own opinion - do you? you want the mods to support your opinion.

And you apparently think that when someone brags about being on a lower moral step than developers - we should ignore it since to express our opinions would be "noise"?

We are talking about the manipulation of markets. Joe has his opinion and I have mine - but the facts are pretty simple: the OP admits to "fibbing" to manipulate the market - I am just pointing out that that manipulation makes his original premise of the thread wrong (at least in his example case).

Just the facts please.

 

[bdmauk]

--Yes, ebay is not representative of "true resale value", quite simply, ebay is only representative of "ebay market value" and there are, of course, other timeshare "markets" which have their own "values".

--Because of this (and it occurs in all "markets"), it is possible to buy a product at one price in one market and turn around and sell that same product in another market for a higher price. There is nothing wrong with this. As Ron did, this is classic arbitrage resulting from inefficient markets (i.e. I'm not a member of Costco so I must buy my coke for a $1 from Ron).

 

[ampaholic]

Why is Red Week a dishonest market?

Well in the case stated here it sure is/was dishonest - by the OP's own admission.

I am not the authority that you are to speak of Redweek's honesty as a whole.

 

[bdmauk]

good for you a classic arbitrage play
Now tell me that you do 10 of these a month and make your living doing it and Ill be impressed.

Really?????? For his sake I hope Joe never does this again.

--Joe has, by his own admission, lied during the course of a business transaction.

--no, Joe has not committed a crime and won't go jail. But he has committed "fraudulent misrepresentation" (black's law dictnry). He offered a product for sale, his offer was accepted, and then he intentionally misrepresented the terms of his offer which resulted in a failure to complete the transaction. This is a case any lawyer would take, as Joe would be held liable in a civil lawsuit for the agreed upon purchase price, plus triple damages (in most states), plus attorney fees (his and theirs). His $4,000 gain (by selling for $13,000 instead of $9,000), subjects him to potential civil liabilities of easily $50,000, for each "fib". Is this in his young family's best interests? People get sued for way more frivolous reasons than what happened here.

--And why is this seen as a personal attack, when what's really being pointed out are illegal business practices? Surely that is something the moderators do want discussed on this board.

 

[ampaholic]

Really?????? For his sake I hope Joe never does this again.

--Joe has, by his own admission, lied during the course of a business transaction.

--no, Joe has not committed a crime and won't go jail. But he has committed "fraudulent misrepresentation" (black's law dictnry). He offered a product for sale, his offer was accepted, and then he intentionally misrepresented the terms of his offer which resulted in a failure to complete the transaction. This is a case any lawyer would take, as Joe would be held liable in a civil lawsuit for the agreed upon purchase price, plus triple damages (in most states), plus attorney fees (his and theirs). His $4,000 gain (by selling for $13,000 instead of $9,000), subjects him to potential civil liabilities of easily $50,000, for each "fib". Is this in his young family's best interests? People get sued for way more frivolous reasons than what happened here.

--And why is this seen as a personal attack, when what's really being pointed out are illegal business practices? Surely that is something the moderators do want discussed on this board.

Wow, yes that is much better put than when I said "Of course if the buyer who is in negotiations to pay him 13 large reads this thread, the hay may hit the fan."

And I would hope that the mods want us to politely discourage illegal practices.

 

[Carolinian]

The Timeshare resale market is really a conglomeration of local markets, and that is where most timeshare transactions occur. eBay has a tiny share of each one. If you take each individual market area and compare eBay sales in that market area with total timeshare sales in that market area, eBay will always be a tiny fraction of each such market. The fact that you can aggragate eBay's sales across all market areas while nobody aggragates the total market is really meaningless.

Please show me some data of any market area where eBay represents even 10% of timeshare resales for any meaningful period. I suspect in most areas, eBay will represent a percentage in the low single digits, perhaps a fraction of 1%

This would be true...IF there were hundreds of more foreclosure sales across the country then regular home sales...The thing with Ebay is if you look at the whole country...or the whole TS market...it IS the market...no where compares to the amount of listings or even sales it makes on a daily basis...Sure you can pull it out of context and pick a tiny area that doesn't apply to...but thats the exception and not the rule...the rule is, Ebay is the market, everything else is just too small to compare

 

[Conan]

I would imagine Daniel Patrick Moynihan is rolling in his grave ... you really don't think everyone is entitled to his own opinion - do you? you want the mods to support your opinion.

And you apparently think that when someone brags about being on a lower moral step than developers - we should ignore it since to express our opinions would be "noise"?
....
Just the facts please.

I don't really have an opinion on the moral issue being debated with such heat. Thanks though for telling me what I "apparently think."

TUG's best feature is what it offers in the way of information. Whether Ebay pricing is or isn't a measure of true value is a question some number of TUG members might be interested in.

But if the topic is where Mr. X deserves to be ranked on the morality scale relative to the rest of us, does TUG need to give that a forum?

And after a person posts nine times in the same thread, maybe they should give it a rest?

 

[timeos2]

This is just completely wrong information...you can absolutly sell a car that has a salvage title...

Didn't say you couldn't - what I'm pointing out is there are those who "scrub" the title through various means so it doesn't appear to be salvage anymore & sell it as a regular sale. That is what is popping up & will be a big problem due to the recent flooding according to reports. The process described here seemed to be awfully close to that BUT if in fact they gave a salvage title then the buyer should know it's a deeply discounted car basically for parts or limited life use.

 

[ampaholic]

I don't really have an opinion on the moral issue being debated with such heat. Thanks though for telling me what I "apparently think."

TUG's best feature is what it offers in the way of information. Whether Ebay pricing is or isn't a measure of true value is a question some number of TUG members might be interested in.

But if the topic is where Mr. X deserves to be ranked on the morality scale relative to the rest of us, does TUG need to give that a forum?

And after a person posts nine times in the same thread, maybe they should give it a rest?

OK, try to keep up here:

1. I don't care about Joe's moral standing one way or another - any more than I care about yours.

2. He started a thread stating the premise that eBay was a false indicator of "market value" and then as an example to support his premise he discussed his manipulation of the market vis-a-vis Redweek.

3. I and others here spoke up and said that such manipulation of the market by "non traditional" means threw his original premise on the dung heap.

You are still supporting his premise (I am left to assume) by trying to "shout down" those who spoke up about it being a flawed premise - due to the dishonesty involved.

I think you need to stop moralizing and state why you think his premise is good or bad.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Didn't say you couldn't - what I'm pointing out is there are those who "scrub" the title through various means so it doesn't appear to be salvage naymore & sell it as a regular sale. That is what is popping up & will be a big problem due to the recent flooding according to reports. The process discrired here seemed to be awfully close to that BUT if in fact they gave a salvage title then the buyer should know it's a deeply discounted car basically for parts or limited life use.

Ahh..Yah i'm not smart enough to know how to scrub a title...even if i could, i've always had concience issues with things like that...they just seem to follow me till i act to fix them....i still feel guilty about a girl i dated in junior high

 

[MOXJO7282]

Really?????? For his sake I hope Joe never does this again.

--Joe has, by his own admission, lied during the course of a business transaction.

--no, Joe has not committed a crime and won't go jail. But he has committed "fraudulent misrepresentation" (black's law dictnry). He offered a product for sale, his offer was accepted, and then he intentionally misrepresented the terms of his offer which resulted in a failure to complete the transaction. This is a case any lawyer would take, as Joe would be held liable in a civil lawsuit for the agreed upon purchase price, plus triple damages (in most states), plus attorney fees (his and theirs). His $4,000 gain (by selling for $13,000 instead of $9,000), subjects him to potential civil liabilities of easily $50,000, for each "fib". Is this in his young family's best interests? People get sued for way more frivolous reasons than what happened here.

--And why is this seen as a personal attack, when what's really being pointed out are illegal business practices? Surely that is something the moderators do want discussed on this board.

That is laughable .A redweek ad is not a bindable agreement so all your other notions are ridculous.

 

[ampaholic]

And after a person posts nine times in the same thread, maybe they should give it a rest?

Pleeeeeeease don't moralize to me about post count ... or are you proposing a new rule for the mods to follow? Since you seem to like to direct them.

 

[MOXJO7282]

Really?????? For his sake I hope Joe never does this again.

--Joe has, by his own admission, lied during the course of a business transaction.

--no, Joe has not committed a crime and won't go jail. But he has committed "fraudulent misrepresentation" (black's law dictnry). He offered a product for sale, his offer was accepted, and then he intentionally misrepresented the terms of his offer which resulted in a failure to complete the transaction. This is a case any lawyer would take, as Joe would be held liable in a civil lawsuit for the agreed upon purchase price, plus triple damages (in most states), plus attorney fees (his and theirs). His $4,000 gain (by selling for $13,000 instead of $9,000), subjects him to potential civil liabilities of easily $50,000, for each "fib". Is this in his young family's best interests? People get sued for way more frivolous reasons than what happened here.

--And why is this seen as a personal attack, when what's really being pointed out are illegal business practices? Surely that is something the moderators do want discussed on this board.

Where was my "Acceptance" of the offer. I have every right change my mind
and not accpet an for whatever reason.

Did you miss that day in law school?

 

[AwayWeGo]

I Resemble That Remark. (Kinda. Sorta.)

I used to buy soft drinks at Costco by the case, put them in vending machines and sell them for a buck.

Just a few months after we bought our 1st house (resale, mortgage assumption), I enlisted in the army to beat the draft. I raised my right hand & took the oath of enlistment December 1, 1965. After basic training at Ft. Jackson SC, I was assigned to the 75th Army Band, Ft. Belvoir VA, within commuting distance of our newly purchased home. I applied for & received permission to live at home & commute even though I was a buck private.

The fact that my salary went from $5,000 per year to $88 per month was mox nix because The Chief Of Staff still had a good job. Also, she got into buying low & selling high about that time, soon getting into through-the-window air conditioners. There was a heat wave that summer & she really cleaned up -- but that's another story.

Just a few blocks from our house was a Krispy Kreme donut place. Fresh, hot donuts were a nickel each back then. A saxophone player in the band down at Ft. Belvoir (I still remember his name) offered me a business proposition. He said the distance from the band barracks (for the guys living there) over to the mess hall meant giving up precious sleep in the morning if the guys got up in time to get over to the mess hall for morning chow. He wanted me to buy 2 dozen nickel Krispy Kreme donuts every day & bring those to the barracks for the band guys to buy for a dime apiece. I said OK if -- IF -- I didn't have to go chasing after guys for donut money. If the sax player would hand over $2.40 every day for the 2 dozen donuts that cost me $1.20, then OK. Getting paid by the donut eaters in the barracks was his problem.

He said OK & we were in business starting the very next morning. Usually I bouight the regular glazed Krispy Kremes at night so I wouldn't have to stand in line in the morning. If there were any complaints about semi-day-old donuts, I never heard'm.

I didn't feel I was ripping off the guys by collecting 10¢ apiece for nickel donuts. I felt I was providing a convenience (donuts delivered straight to the barracks) that amounted to value for service.

In February 1967 the daily donut deal came to an end. I got transfer orders to the 214th Army Band, Ft. Richardson AK, & that was that.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[timeos2]

I didn't feel I was ripping off the guys by collecting 10¢ apiece for nickel donuts. I felt I was providing a convenience (donuts delivered straight to the barracks) that amounted to value for service.

In February 1967 the daily donut deal came to an end. I got transfer orders to the 214th Army Band, Ft. Richardson AK, & that was that.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Ah but even today there are those in those barracks and in timeshares who bemoan the loss of the "good old days" when donuts were only 10 cents each, RCI took in hot dog time and gave out steak time to all and timeshare fees were under $300. almost everywhere. It is all relative in the end. Today's rip off may be tomorrows great deal or the reverse.

 

[e.bram]

The whole story the OP related could just be that, a story.
I don't believe it.

 

[bdh]

Just one of at least 2 dozen recent stories about salvage/junk vehicles - due to flooding - and how they . It is a well known scam and one that will be in big use with all the recent Mississippi flooding in so many areas. These are operations that do not follow the rules and simply use cheap methods to resell a flood car - especially high end luxury or performance cars - as undamaged.

Did you even read the article that you included?? No where does it say or imply car titles "are magically "cleansed" through multiple state registrations to gain much higher, non-damaged pricing".

If you would have read the article you might have seen the paragraph about "Check the actual title or pink slip. State departments of motor vehicle (DMV) issue “salvage” titles when a vehicle was been an insurance write-off or total loss. This is when the amount of damage exceeds the vehicle’s actual value. Some people buy these “wrecks,” fix them up, and offer them for sale." While maybe the wrong car for you, the sale of a salvage title vehicle is legal.

Please don't start misleading people with bad information on automotive topics - stick to TS info where you've been providing that information for years.