Don't buy a timeshare. It's the worst deal they can do.

[GTLINZ]

Paul Simon could modify his song to "50 ways to diss your timeshare shark"

 

[ScoopKona]

"I don't want to buy" leaves the topic open to further discussion about the reasons why the person doesn't want to buy. "My attorney (or whoever) says its a bad idea" is much tougher to argue with, unless you want to get the attorney on the phone during the sales meeting.

Not at all. Here's what I did, "I can answer that right now. Your attorney is going to say no because he or she has zero reason to say yes. Your attorney deals with legal issues, not vacations. If you ask your attorney if you should go to Key West for Fantasy Fest, that's also going to be a big no. And if you ask if you should spend a lot of money on a fishing trip, that, too, will be a big no. Basically, your attorney's job is to tell you not to have any fun."

Since I was selling in Key West; and since Key West is my home town; I know what people are paying for hotels. "Oh, you're staying at Banana's Foster Guest House? All week? Geeze. That's $5,000. And then you need to eat three meals out every day. There's another $300 per person per day. So for the two of you, we're up to nearly $10,000. And that's just one vacation. You say you come down here twice a year. How much are you going to spend before you realize that owning is better than renting?"

As I always told people -- Key West is a great place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit there.

There are a number of timeshare locations where the numbers are so absolutely lopsided in favor of timeshares that even buying from the developer makes financial sense. A developer could build the first timeshare in Taos, or Monterey, or Paso Robles, and people would be foolish not to buy -- assuming they visit often.

 

[davidvel]

Not at all. Here's what I did, "I can answer that right now. Your attorney is going to say no because he or she has zero reason to say yes. Your attorney deals with legal issues, not vacations. If you ask your attorney if you should go to Key West for Fantasy Fest, that's also going to be a big no. And if you ask if you should spend a lot of money on a fishing trip, that, too, will be a big no. Basically, your attorney's job is to tell you not to have any fun."

Since I was selling in Key West; and since Key West is my home town; I know what people are paying for hotels. "Oh, you're staying at Banana's Foster Guest House? All week? Geeze. That's $5,000. And then you need to eat three meals out every day. There's another $300 per person per day. So for the two of you, we're up to nearly $10,000. And that's just one vacation. You say you come down here twice a year. How much are you going to spend before you realize that owning is better than renting?"

As I always told people -- Key West is a great place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit there.

There are a number of timeshare locations where the numbers are so absolutely lopsided in favor of timeshares that even buying from the developer makes financial sense. A developer could build the first timeshare in Taos, or Monterey, or Paso Robles, and people would be foolish not to buy -- assuming they visit often.

Clown-speak, like all timeshare salespeople. $100 per person, per meal, breakfast lunch and dinner every day? And even if someone was eating so high on the hog, making food in their TS kitchen would be an alternative for that person? Comedy. That's like saying, "You are spending 10K to fly business class? I can sell you a subscription to Spirit Airlines that would be cheaper.

 

[Hopi]

How does this work? Do non-system resorts just work with any exchange company? I ask because both Wyndham and HGVC only officially work with RCI, so I have to assume while you could do a direct exchange, they wouldn't do any of the "stuff" they do with RCI to confirm and check in the exchanger. Even for the dual affiliated resorts or other systems, they only talk about RCI and II. Personally I'd prefer if the systems didn't limit what exchange company you could use, but I guess it makes them money doing the exclusive deals they do.

Platinum Interchange is a small exchange company and does not accept points. One would need to reserve a week and deposit that fixed week to Platinum Interchange. Maybe not all point resort systems let one use Platinum Interchange. You can call Platinum Interchange at 800-854-2324 and ask if it can work with your point resort system.

Some resorts are so affiliated with RCI, and do not allow their timeshare owners/members to use other exchange companies.

 

[ScoopKona]

Clown-speak, like all timeshare salespeople. $100 per person, per meal, breakfast lunch and dinner every day?

$50 at Pepe's or Blue Heaven; $50-100 for lunch on the water somewhere; definitely $200-ish (with drinks) for dinner. That's Key West. And yes, they could have hit the now defunct Waterfront Market or Fishbusterz and pick up their Pinks/Reds/Mutton/Snook and save a fortune. A chimp can be trained to steam shrimp, after all. And broiling isn't much harder.

 

[davidvel]

$50 at Pepe's or Blue Heaven; $50-100 for lunch on the water somewhere; definitely $200-ish (with drinks) for dinner. That's Key West. And yes, they could have hit the now defunct Waterfront Market or Fishbusterz and pick up their Pinks/Reds/Mutton/Snook and save a fortune. A chimp can be trained to steam shrimp, after all. And broiling isn't much harder.

Yeah, people eating those kind of meals spending $350 a day are going to go grocery shopping, find all the main ingredients, sauces, sides, spices, etc. and have the where-with-all to make similar restaurant quality meals? And spend all their time shopping and cooking. A monkey is suddenly going to become a gourmet chef.

"Honey I'm making a filet-tip omelet for me and eggs benedict for you with fresh squeezed OJ mimosas. I For lunch I'll make a Mahi Mahi salad with Miso Baked Eggplant and Mixed Greens, Chevre, House Orange Cider Vinaigrette and Buttered Fresh Bread. I'll be having a gourmet burger with Pasture-raised Beef served with Shaved Romaine, a little red onion and Baron Pickles, Served with Slaw. For dinner I am whipping up a steamed mussels appetizer, a shrimp salad with basil onions, and capers. Our mains will be sauteed yellowtail with roasted potatoes, spinach and citrus burre blanc, as well as a filet mignon with gremolata and asparagus. I got a bottle of white for you and red for me. We'll be eating on our balcony and a repeat this every day, with a different cuisine and menu each meal. This will save us $300 a day as all the ingredients are practically free."

OK, right. Utter silliness.

 

[ScoopKona]

"Honey I'm making a filet-tip omelet for me and eggs benedict for you with fresh squeezed OJ mimosas. I For lunch I'll make a Mahi Mahi salad with Miso Baked Eggplant and Mixed Greens, Chevre, House Orange Cider Vinaigrette and Buttered Fresh Bread. I'll be having a gourmet burger with Pasture-raised Beef served with Shaved Romaine, a little red onion and Baron Pickles, Served with Slaw. For dinner I am whipping up a steamed mussels appetizer, a shrimp salad with basil onions, and capers. Our mains will be sauteed yellowtail with roasted potatoes, spinach and citrus burre blanc, as well as a filet mignon with gremolata and asparagus. I got a bottle of white for you and red for me. We'll be eating on our balcony and a repeat this every day, with a different cuisine and menu each meal. This will save us $300 a day as all the ingredients are practically free."

You have just described an average day of one of our vacations...

 

[davidvel]

You have just described an average day of one of our vacations...

I wholeheartedly believe that. Certainly not a day for a vacation couple that typically spends $600 a day on average for a week on meals at restaurants.

 

[ScoopKona]

I wholeheartedly believe that. Certainly not a day for a vacation couple that typically spends $600 a day on average for a week on meals at restaurants.

There are a great many who desperately wish they were those people. The numbers haven't changed. Owning a timeshare in Key West (and several other high-end zip codes) is better than renting hotel rooms and being at the mercy of restaurants.

There's a resort on Maui which also routinely attracts people to pay developer prices -- because the numbers work. And the numbers are also overwhelmingly lopsided in favor of "learn the basics of cooking." I truly doubt most people will bother. But it's a valid option.

 

[davidvel]

There are a great many who desperately wish they were those people. The numbers haven't changed. Owning a timeshare in Key West (and several other high-end zip codes) is better than renting hotel rooms and being at the mercy of restaurants.

There's a resort on Maui which also routinely attracts people to pay developer prices -- because the numbers work. And the numbers are also overwhelmingly lopsided in favor of "learn the basics of cooking." I truly doubt most people will bother. But it's a valid option.

Good work, you're changing the topic. No, couples who usually spend $4,200+ a week on food at upscale restaurants aren't suddenly going to enjoy cooking meals in their TS because it is cheaper.

 

[gravityrules]

[QUOTE="ScoopKona, post: 3020388, member: 27776"

There are a number of timeshare locations where the numbers are so absolutely lopsided in favor of timeshares that even buying from the developer makes financial sense. A developer could build the first timeshare in Taos, or Monterey, or Paso Robles, and people would be foolish not to buy -- assuming they visit often.
[/QUOTE]

There is a Worldmark in Taos, don't know if WM is making bank off that ... I think it's amusing that for some if it's not in the MVW or Hilton ecosystem it might as well not exist! Not saying that's you, but there's definitely a theme along those lines here on TUG!

 

[Volkyro]

Good work, you're changing the topic. No, couples who usually spend $4,200+ a week on food at upscale restaurants aren't suddenly going to enjoy cooking meals in their TS because it is cheaper.

I mean, if we're talking about changing the topic...

You seem to be really digging in on his, relatively unimportant, rough estimate for meals. The point was: hotels in Key West are very expensive (which is true, I just checked a random week in April and the average is about $4k) and a timeshare there likely gives you more space along with the flexibility to cook instead of eating out. All of those points are accurate. Yes, his estimate for food was a bit lofty, but that is a rather minor detail. The original discussion was about objections during a timeshare presentation, and you've gone all the way off track to the price of fish.

 

[adam2013]

One has to understand his/her financial situation, has all the information available, and weighs all the pros and cons BEFORE making that decision and unfortunately most people do not and they make an impulse decision, in addition to being aided by deceptive and misleading claims from TS sales people.

I do not own a TS and have no desire to but many of my work colleagues have TS and all of them regret that decision. At the same time, I am sure there are people in TUG that have done very well with TS because they put in a lot of time and effort doing their research. Congrats to those that do, job well done. I work in cybersecurity and I get paid 350k/yr. On top of that I do security consultant on the side for $300/hr, 10 hours per week, I just do not have the time to spend on gathering information about TS to help me make an "informed" decision whether or not I should purchase TS.

One of my work colleagues purchased a TS in Key West and he had to pay 50K initiation fee on top 2.8K in MF (it was 1.5K when he originally purchased the TS). If he takes that 50K invest in the stock market with 8% annual return, he would get 4K/year and with 1.5K/year in MF, he would get 5.5K/year and I am sure he could get a very nice place in Key West most of the time for 7 nights stay while still keeping his 50K. Because my wife and I work remote 100% of the time, we can go anywhere at anytime so there is no need to purchase TS. I am looking for cheap deals here in TUG but I am new here so I am learning not to get scammed but that is another story.

I do have a questions for folks with TS. Is it true that the interest rate on the loan is at least 15% or more? What stopping TS from increasing the MF? Can they double or even triple your MF due to the rise of insurances from weather related events?

 

[Patri]

You are wise. Just rent from owners here and on other sites. You will find good deals, even in nice resorts in prime season. Interest rate for new is probably close. Most of us here don’t owe anything and bought resale, at least after the first purchase. Maintenance fees do go up, but usually gradually. A large hike would be a special assessment, and temporary.

 

[Janann]

I do have a questions for folks with TS. Is it true that the interest rate on the loan is at least 15% or more? What stopping TS from increasing the MF? Can they double or even triple your MF due to the rise of insurances from weather related events?

Yes, the interest rate is correct. You should never finance a timeshare.

There is nothing to stop maintenance fees from going up. In my experience, they always go up.

If there is a natural disaster, it is more likely to be charged to owners as a special assessment (a one-time fee of $X). I own with Disney and Hilton, and have never had a special assessment. The people who own with individual resorts are more likely to get special assessments for any number of reasons -- a new roof, new parking lot, overall upgrades, etc.

 

[jp10558]

One has to understand his/her financial situation, has all the information available, and weighs all the pros and cons BEFORE making that decision and unfortunately most people do not and they make an impulse decision, in addition to being aided by deceptive and misleading claims from TS sales people.

I do not own a TS and have no desire to but many of my work colleagues have TS and all of them regret that decision. At the same time, I am sure there are people in TUG that have done very well with TS because they put in a lot of time and effort doing their research. Congrats to those that do, job well done. I work in cybersecurity and I get paid 350k/yr. On top of that I do security consultant on the side for $300/hr, 10 hours per week, I just do not have the time to spend on gathering information about TS to help me make an "informed" decision whether or not I should purchase TS.

One of my work colleagues purchased a TS in Key West and he had to pay 50K initiation fee on top 2.8K in MF (it was 1.5K when he originally purchased the TS). If he takes that 50K invest in the stock market with 8% annual return, he would get 4K/year and with 1.5K/year in MF, he would get 5.5K/year and I am sure he could get a very nice place in Key West most of the time for 7 nights stay while still keeping his 50K. Because my wife and I work remote 100% of the time, we can go anywhere at anytime so there is no need to purchase TS. I am looking for cheap deals here in TUG but I am new here so I am learning not to get scammed but that is another story.

I do have a questions for folks with TS. Is it true that the interest rate on the loan is at least 15% or more? What stopping TS from increasing the MF? Can they double or even triple your MF due to the rise of insurances from weather related events?

Well, I don't earn that lofty a salary, but I do WFH so am able to (and do) go anywhere in the US and work during the week so don't need to eat vacation unless I want to. (Outside the US gets odd laws involved). Don't buy Retail, as you see, that upfront cost is quite the hill to ever climb to break even. You *can* do so, I've seen at least one guy who lived in timeshares for a year straight (has a youtube channel) who said his payback was about 10 years on retail purchases. However, I've bought resale and my payback was less than 2 years, and I didn't get the best resale deals possible.

I know people say rent, and compared to buying retail, yes 100%. Compared to getting something resale and taking all the RCI extra vacations that are interesting to you? I think only the last minute rental prices compare - I'm *regularly* getting a 2BR week via RCI for $560 or less plus fees. Sure, they're not prime season, but for a change of pace after work it's fun to travel and go to these places for me. I haven't done a deep dive on timeshare rentals specifically, mostly because it's kind of hard to find great data outside of Redweek, but on Redweek I usually at best find rentals around the MF cost, often for a bit more. If you're only going to go to the week(s) you bought, then resale and rental are kind of a wash IMO, though there is slightly more risk in getting a rental cancelled especially with timeshares cracking down on that. If you're going to snag the exchange company deals (that you can get or do get with various ownerships), I don't think I've seen similar prices. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a rental for 6 months out for that $560 or less for a 2BR, but that it's just there to grab with RCI and I don't have to go find someone, work out if I trust them, pay "cash" (venmo/zelle/paypal) or mail a check etc. I can use my normal CC right on the site and done.

Now, does this work for you? I'd say it well might because you can get HGVC for sub $10,000 all in including first year MFs and $1,600 or less a year for 11,200pts (standard 2BR most locations) pretty much whenever you'd like to, at places in Vegas, Orlando, and Scotland. This MF also gets you RCI access like I'm talking about. I did a comparison based on getting hotels for the same time of year at mid level Hampton Inn sort of properties with the same number of bedrooms (so 2 hotel rooms), and it took 4 trips of a week each to get into the positive on the lodging. I've mentioned the numbers before on this site, maybe in this thread.


Now, the way I make this work is the following:

1) I want to travel more than 2 weeks a year with timeshares. Less than that and I do think renting makes more sense, or using hotels.
2) Sometimes during my free time I look at the list of resorts in my systems and see if there's availability some months out if there's one I'd like to go to. If so, I book it.
3) More often I check my RCI account and see what's up in extra vacations that looks good and is in my pricerange (do also check the resort fees and avoid All Inclusive fees). Then I book those.
4) Once or twice a year I have a specific location in mind at a specific time of year (~ a month range). I will look 9 months out in my systems or RCI to try and lock in availability and book it.

I.e. the more you look at the timeshare locations as a menu you pick from when the deal looks good rather than trying to fit a different planned trip - the better it works out IMO. The hard work and learning is to try and fit trips set. I.e. to the extent you can plan around the easy availability or cheap prices, the better the timeshares work.

 

[ScoopKona]

Yes, his estimate for food was a bit lofty, but that is a rather minor detail.

Check the menu for Latitudes, Blue Heaven's breakfast, Cafe Marquesa and similar. If anything, my numbers are conservative.

Key West's worst-kept secret is that with a handful of exceptions, the restaurants are expensive -- not particularly good. They don't have to be good because they have a captive market. The worst part about this reality is, that for an island with access to some of the best raw seafood on the planet, there aren't many good seafood restaurants. Most of them want to cover everything in a mornay sauce with shallots because they can charge more. A basket of steamed shrimp or stone crab simply isn't on the menu -- but can be in the timeshare kitchen.

My favorite kind of timeshare presentation was the woman who simply turned up -- no gifts, no shuttle, no song-and-dance -- sick of what the family was spending to come down for race week, Fantasy Fest, Hemingway Days, Lobster Mini Season, Poker Run or whatever. I'd show her the numbers. I'd give her the product description as written in the sticky notes. And she wrote a check.

The numbers work. The only real concern this woman had was whether the timeshare weeks of the year lined up with the calendar year (they don't). So we always had a list of what weeks paired with which event. "Buy this unit because it lines up two thirds of the time. The other years, either trade elsewhere or internally trade for the week you want. Chances are good that you'll get it. And I can prove that by logging into my own account and showing you what's available."

 

[davidvel]

I mean, if we're talking about changing the topic...

You seem to be really digging in on his, relatively unimportant, rough estimate for meals. The point was: hotels in Key West are very expensive (which is true, I just checked a random week in April and the average is about $4k) and a timeshare there likely gives you more space along with the flexibility to cook instead of eating out. All of those points are accurate. Yes, his estimate for food was a bit lofty, but that is a rather minor detail. The original discussion was about objections during a timeshare presentation, and you've gone all the way off track to the price of fish.

This thread is about buying a timeshare from a developer and the costs. He used to sell timeshares for a developer, and described a line he would use to convince people to buy, claiming they would save $5,000 a week by NOT going out to meals and cooking themselves. I'm not saying it didn't work, just pointing out how TS salespeople make up garbage ideas to sell. Is it expensive to eat there? Absolutely. Do most couples staying there have 3 meals out a day, every day, over a week, spending on average $600 a day on meals? Also, do they pay nothing for food if they cook an equivalent meal themselves?

 

[adam2013]

Yes, the interest rate is correct. You should never finance a timeshare.

There is nothing to stop maintenance fees from going up. In my experience, they always go up.

If there is a natural disaster, it is more likely to be charged to owners as a special assessment (a one-time fee of $X). I own with Disney and Hilton, and have never had a special assessment. The people who own with individual resorts are more likely to get special assessments for any number of reasons -- a new roof, new parking lot, overall upgrades, etc.

Thank you for explaining it. My question is what stops the MF from increasing 25% per year, like 5 times the rate of inflation (assuming inflation is 5% per year). With a condo or car insurance, I can sell my condo or shop for a new car insurance, but with TS, I am very much stuck with the MF increase and there is nothing I can do about it, unless I can get someone to take over the TS. Am I reading right?

 

[Janann]

but with TS, I am very much stuck with the MF increase and there is nothing I can do about it, unless I can get someone to take over the TS. Am I reading right?

Completely correct.

 

[theo]

My question is what stops the MF from increasing 25% per year, like 5 times the rate of inflation (assuming inflation is 5% per year). With a condo or car insurance, I can sell my condo or shop for a new car insurance, but with TS, I am very much stuck with the MF increase and there is nothing I can do about it, unless I can get someone to take over the TS. Am I reading right?

Maintenance fees (and MF increases) are simply a part of timeshare ownership.
Materials, labor, and maintenance costs move only in one direction — upward.

In my own few decades of timeshare ownership experience (several different independent [non “chain”] coastal resorts, all weeks purchased resale) annual mf increases have generally been in the 5-10% range. Recently however, insurance costs have really skyrocketed for some coastal areas with hurricane vulnerability and, as a result, for 2024 we have experienced a nearly 30% increase in maintenance fees virtually overnight at one property. It‘s still more affordable (and much more appealing) to us than vacationing out of hotel rooms, however — at least until such time as maintenance fees approach or exceed our pain threshold. Everyone is different, of course. YMMV.

My gut sense from your posts is that you would be more comfortable renting timeshares instead of ever buying one. You are absolutely correct that there is almost “nothing you can do” about unexpected maintenance fee increases and / or unwelcome, surprise special assessments in timeshare ownership — and parting company with a timeshare ownership (unlike your examples of selling a car or condo) can very often be no easy task.

You ask astute questions, but (understandably) may not like the answers.

 

[ScoopKona]

Thank you for explaining it. My question is what stops the MF from increasing 25% per year, like 5 times the rate of inflation (assuming inflation is 5% per year). With a condo or car insurance, I can sell my condo or shop for a new car insurance, but with TS, I am very much stuck with the MF increase and there is nothing I can do about it, unless I can get someone to take over the TS. Am I reading right?

Let's compare to the closest alternative -- owning a vacation house. It won't cost 52-times more to maintain a house for a year than a 1/52nd share of a condo. That's because the owner can put in some sweat equity. But the owner is also on the hook for 100% of all costs -- should the roof need replacement or similar.

Up until recently, I owned houses in three states. And I'm still in two states (thankfully that ends soon). The cost of maintenance has absolutely skyrocketed. A sheet of plywood, during the pandemic, was stupidly expensive. And if you need a lot of plywood for whatever issue you're having, there isn't any viable alternative to "suck it up, buttercup." Prices have come down so that they're merely "double what they were a few years ago." But it's still a hard financial pill doing major work on property.

Hotel prices have also skyrocketed. And for all the same reasons -- a can of paint, a sheet of plywood, and a replacement window all cost more. As does the labor of the person who does the installation. (In my case, that's me -- working for $0/hr.)

Compared to a vacation house, a timeshare is a ripping bargain. The timeshare owner is sharing the expenses with all the other owners. And although HOAs are notorious for spending other people's money without a care in the world, my timeshare HOA has done a decent job holding the line on expenses. And I know the people who do the work -- I own a timeshare in my home town. If anything seriously corrupt was happening, I'd get an email.

 

[Grammarhero]

Don't buy a timeshare. It's the worst deal they can do.

I own two timeshares: one in the USVI (1BD) and another one in Orlando, Florida (2BD).

In 2003 I bought the USVI Westin timeshare for 40,000$ and 20,000$ for Sheraton Vistana Villages in Orlando timeshare.

Now they want me to pay 1,800$ and 2,900$ maintenance fees for Orlando and USVI Westin, respectively.

Booking offers you the same units for a much cheaper price. We are being deceived and stolen from.

I just want to sell this timeshare that unfortunately has downgraded to less than half of its price.

The only way out is to sell it back to Vistana but they only accept it back with the maintenance fees all paid.

They are playing with our investment.

Financial terrorism. Scam companies

I'd preface by saying don't buy full price. My family and friends have been able to travel with my wife and I for motel prices. Lots of memories. For example, 6 of us went to Hilton head for $600/week, which comes down to $90/person/week.

 

[Grammarhero]

My friends and I usually take turns cooking meals, so we save $$ and time that way.

 

[adam2013]

Let's compare to the closest alternative -- owning a vacation house. It won't cost 52-times more to maintain a house for a year than a 1/52nd share of a condo. That's because the owner can put in some sweat equity. But the owner is also on the hook for 100% of all costs -- should the roof need replacement or similar.

Up until recently, I owned houses in three states. And I'm still in two states (thankfully that ends soon). The cost of maintenance has absolutely skyrocketed. A sheet of plywood, during the pandemic, was stupidly expensive. And if you need a lot of plywood for whatever issue you're having, there isn't any viable alternative to "suck it up, buttercup." Prices have come down so that they're merely "double what they were a few years ago." But it's still a hard financial pill doing major work on property.

Hotel prices have also skyrocketed. And for all the same reasons -- a can of paint, a sheet of plywood, and a replacement window all cost more. As does the labor of the person who does the installation. (In my case, that's me -- working for $0/hr.)

Compared to a vacation house, a timeshare is a ripping bargain. The timeshare owner is sharing the expenses with all the other owners. And although HOAs are notorious for spending other people's money without a care in the world, my timeshare HOA has done a decent job holding the line on expenses. And I know the people who do the work -- I own a timeshare in my home town. If anything seriously corrupt was happening, I'd get an email.

Is it true that when you sell your vacation home, you will most likely make money from selling the vacation home vs. you get nothing from a TS. The important thing, as someone already pointed out, is that there is nothing to stop the TS people from raising the MF every year at the rate three times higher than the rate of inflation and there is nothing you can do about it, unless you can find someone to transfer it to (not an easy task). With the vacation home/condo, at least you can sell the property if the HOA or insurance (or at least shop for another) if you don't like the term. With TS, you're pretty much stuck. For me, I am just not comfortable about the "unknown" with TS into the future but YMMV.