Don't buy a timeshare. It's the worst deal they can do.

[ronandjoan]

Thanks Steve. You have clarified a lot to tell us that Timesharing can be a great way to vacation … and playing the point game.
But… learn the rules to the game — whichever game you play — and WIN!!

 

[SteveinHNL]

Thank you Steve, you explained it far better and faster than him. (I have seen the Hyatt thread now, but never have looked there before and I didn't even know he owned Hyatt. Probably the same for others reading.) I think @Hopi was just trying to figure out how it was done, not knowing all the background you had, and the exchange fees seeming low. Thanks to you it seems we finally got an answer. Sure didn't need to go on so long.

Right. Everything @ScoopKona explained made instant sense to me, but partly because I know what he has, and mostly because I have picked his brain extensively when trying to learn about the Hyatt system, which I love. But without that context, it would not be easy to put together.

 

[ScoopKona]

Thanks Steve. You have clarified a lot to tell us that Timesharing can be a great way to vacation … and playing the point game.
But… learn the rules to the game — whichever game you play — and WIN!!

There is a LOT more to it. There are numerous deadlines, and reservation window strategies.

Simply saying, "This system will allow you to do the following" is disingenuous. There are hoops to jump through. And few are interested in reading the fine print. The current system being discussed will cheerfully let an owner neglect the deadlines and waste their timeshare for the entire year, with almost no recourse. There's an entire year and all the maintenance fees down the drain. And it happens all the time. There are very few options for procrastinators or people who cancel last minute. And more than one member has quit/sold in disgust because the system simply doesn't work for them.

What works great for me is not guaranteed to work for anyone else. And since so many people want "written in stone" guarantees about what they can do in a system where everything is constantly changing, the only advice I ever give is "do your research."

Asking "what timeshare should I buy" makes almost as much sense as asking, "how do I win an athletic competition?" Most of the work needs to be done alone -- "Yes, this might work for me. No, this definitely does not." I don't even recommend people buy timeshares at all. The vast majority of timeshare owners are unhappy -- as the original post describes in very blunt terms.

 

[jp10558]

I think the most important thing to me is being able to either pay up for priority at one or more places for the exact time you want to go, or be OK with traveling in shoulder seasons when access is way easier (though still not guaranteed without planning). The other thing that works well for me, and I wish the actual mini systems offered this view like RCI does is to have a list of dates with what units at a resort are available. So you can scan through and pick from what's available. Even better is something like Hilton's system where they have a grid for all the resorts with unit types and availability, though what I hate is it seems pretty hard to find full week blocks a lot of the time. For me the traditional "week block" is actually way more useful than 2 days here, 3 days there, just because I don't live near any timeshares and have no real desire to fly somewhere for 2 days.

Edit, and I'm really starting to see why people complain about Wyndhams site - I'm not sure I could design such a painful to use site if I tried. I'm sure it's to make it harder to find bookings.

 

[dioxide45]

Thank you Steve, you explained it far better and faster than him. (I have seen the Hyatt thread now, but never have looked there before and I didn't even know he owned Hyatt. Probably the same for others reading.) I think @Hopi was just trying to figure out how it was done, not knowing all the background you had, and the exchange fees seeming low. Thanks to you it seems we finally got an answer. Sure didn't need to go on so long.

But these are reservations directly through the Hyatt mini system. Others were booking through II which has an exchange fee and you can't book into other Hyatt resorts through II. Though they were able to stretch for a lot more weeks.

 

[SteveinHNL]

There is a LOT more to it. There are numerous deadlines, and reservation window strategies.

Simply saying, "This system will allow you to do the following" is disingenuous. There are hoops to jump through. And few are interested in reading the fine print. The current system being discussed will cheerfully let an owner neglect the deadlines and waste their timeshare for the entire year, with almost no recourse. There's an entire year and all the maintenance fees down the drain. And it happens all the time. There are very few options for procrastinators or people who cancel last minute. And more than one member has quit/sold in disgust because the system simply doesn't work for them.

What works great for me is not guaranteed to work for anyone else. And since so many people want "written in stone" guarantees about what they can do in a system where everything is constantly changing, the only advice I ever give is "do your research."

Asking "what timeshare should I buy" makes almost as much sense as asking, "how do I win an athletic competition?" Most of the work needs to be done alone -- "Yes, this might work for me. No, this definitely does not." I don't even recommend people buy timeshares at all. The vast majority of timeshare owners are unhappy -- as the original post describes in very blunt terms.

Yes, whatever you own, make sure you understand it, and make sure you meet the deadlines. We try to book things a year or so in advance, so running into deadlines hasn't been our specific problem. Whatever system you own, find that system forum on TUG and go in there and start asking questions. Lots of helpful people there!!

 

[SteveinHNL]

But these are reservations directly through the Hyatt mini system. Others were booking through II which has an exchange fee and you can't book into other Hyatt resorts through II. Though they were able to stretch for a lot more weeks.

My illustration of what @ScoopKona has described includes an internal Hyatt booking (Carmel) combined with bookings using the remaining Hyatt points through Interval, which would have a higher exchange fee. I think I mentioned that but yes, this is important to know. I guess one would also want to find out if there are additional charges for parking or resort fees when booking through Interval, as I'm sure each resort varies. I was mainly trying to give an illustration to answer the question(s) about how Scoop was able to do what he described all from one TS week.

 

[ScoopKona]

Yes, whatever you own, make sure you understand it, and make sure you meet the deadlines. We try to book things a year or so in advance, so running into deadlines hasn't been our specific problem. Whatever system you own, find that system forum on TUG and go in there and start asking questions. Lots of helpful people there!!

The newbie forums are, unfortunately, the least useful. There's no way around it. The newbies don't know what they don't know. So they don't know what to ask. And there's a mountain of misinformation, half-truths, and bold-faced lies out there. There's also all the information they've heard from friends, relatives, "Exit My Timeshare Now dot com," co-workers, People magazine, and even the nightly news. The worst part is that (most) people make the decision to buy a timeshare, and then they rush out to buy one just as fast as humanly possible. They could take it slow, rent for years, see what they ACTUALLY like, and then go shopping. That's the smart way. There are a lot of different programs out there -- and all of them have their strengths and weaknesses. Some of the independents are monster traders with numbers which work and a high satisfaction rate (for timeshares). But for some reason, people rush into a decision based on "I heard it was good."

That's a big, blind leap into a program that can be as hard to get rid of as [a certain STI].

 

[SteveinHNL]

The newbie forums are, unfortunately, the least useful. There's no way around it. The newbies don't know what they don't know. So they don't know what to ask. And there's a mountain of misinformation, half-truths, and bold-faced lies out there. There's also all the information they've heard from friends, relatives, "Exit My Timeshare Now dot com," co-workers, People magazine, and even the nightly news. The worst part is that (most) people make the decision to buy a timeshare, and then they rush out to buy one just as fast as humanly possible. They could take it slow, rent for years, see what they ACTUALLY like, and then go shopping. That's the smart way. There are a lot of different programs out there -- and all of them have their strengths and weaknesses. Some of the independents are monster traders with numbers which work and a high satisfaction rate (for timeshares). But for some reason, people rush into a decision based on "I heard it was good."

That's a big, blind leap into a program that can be as hard to get rid of as [a certain STI].

I don't really know what the Newbie forums are. I am referring more to the forums dedicated to each specific TS system. Meaning the Marriott forum, the Hyatt Forum, etc. By reading the Hyatt forum, it was easy to determine who know a lot, and what questions to ask. I'm sure you remember me asking you and others lots of questions, and even sending you PM's with more questions. What I found is that folks were gracious and generous in providing information and viewpoints, pros, and cons. But I was careful not just to ask questions of the general population (which I definitely did do), but also to ask specific questions to specific folks who seemed quite knowledgeable from reading their prior posts and responses.

 

[dioxide45]

My illustration of what @ScoopKona has described includes an internal Hyatt booking (Carmel) combined with bookings using the remaining Hyatt points through Interval, which would have a higher exchange fee. I think I mentioned that but yes, this is important to know. I guess one would also want to find out if there are additional charges for parking or resort fees when booking through Interval, as I'm sure each resort varies. I was mainly trying to give an illustration to answer the question(s) about how Scoop was able to do what he described all from one TS week.

Sorry, I was basing my response on post #48 which was your usage vs what David quoted from #47.

 

[Red elephant]

I have no problems sharing. Almost all of my exchanges are through II. There's a guide on how to do exactly what I do at the top of the stickied posts.

The main reason I don't give specifics is because there are many ways to get the same outcome. One of the other name-brand hotel system timeshares might be a much better fit.

The big-picture problem with all the "what should I buy" threads is that most of the replies are variations of "I bought this and you should, too." That isn't advice or information, it's validation.

I will cheerfully explain what's possible. And then if someone is serious, they can learn how, easily. It's not like any of this is top-secret information.

I did read your post and picked up you were using Hyatt points thru interval. I just could not figure out how you got all those weeks with the one week. I am not familiar with Hyatt and use interval for Marriott exchanges with my lockoff which only gives me 2 weeks.Thank you.

 

[Red elephant]

Not sure why he couldn't just lead you to his own sticky: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/h...as-few-words-as-possible.354983/#post-2956503

Well, yeah, I do know why.

Thank you.

 

[ScoopKona]

I did read your post and picked up you were using Hyatt points thru interval. I just could not figure out how you got all those weeks with the one week. I am not familiar with Hyatt and use interval for Marriott exchanges with my lockoff which only gives me 2 weeks.Thank you.

Here's the problem -- the exchange cost for the various systems is different. $250 for some. $150 for others. The point totals are WILDLY different, mainly because all points aren't created equal. Some systems use 10s of thousands of points. Others use hundreds. What matters is "what can you get on a single maintenance fee?" At least, that's what matters for me as a trader.

You can get multiple weeks with other systems -- and because of where their resorts are located, internal exchanges and similar, they might be a far better fit.

Since no timeshare company pays me, I'm not going to sing their praises and suggest people buy into the system. Most timeshare owners loathe/hate/despise their timeshare. Even the ones who own major hotel systems.

Is timesharing for you? No idea. And there's no way to tell without spending a long time talking in person.

Is a specific timeshare company for you? Even less of an idea. All I can do is share what's possible and hope that people who say, "Yeah, one of those please," head to the specific forum and start researching.

I think I've been damned blunt about "how I get all those weeks." It's because that's how the system was set up. Any owner can do it. Many won't. I think it's fair to say that MOST won't. But anyone can. They just have to be willing to learn the system and then formulate a strategy. And then stick to that strategy -- making adjustments as necessary as inevitable change happens.

My system was basically gutted this year. I still think it's better than the other systems because I can still wring multiple weeks from a single maintenance fee. But it just became more difficult and my price per night is set to go up by at least 50% and perhaps as much as double. That's still $150-200/night, which for the places we stay, is STILL a bargain.

Am I happy about that? Hell no. But I roll with the punches. I got to enjoy the previous system for more than 20 years. It's still a win.

 

[Hopi]

I don't really know what the Newbie forums are. I am referring more to the forums dedicated to each specific TS system. Meaning the Marriott forum, the Hyatt Forum, etc. By reading the Hyatt forum, it was easy to determine who know a lot, and what questions to ask. I'm sure you remember me asking you and others lots of questions, and even sending you PM's with more questions. What I found is that folks were gracious and generous in providing information and viewpoints, pros, and cons. But I was careful not just to ask questions of the general population (which I definitely did do), but also to ask specific questions to specific folks who seemed quite knowledgeable from reading their prior posts and responses.

Thank you. Yes, I found you and many folks were gracious and generous in providing information and viewpoints, pros, and cons at TUG, except ScoopKona.
Some people want to brag (not just in this forum, but never want to share).

I have to thank @davidvel as well. From the responses from ScoopKona, I did not feel very good yesterday and today (making me feel stupid after doing research)
Perhaps ScoopKona needs to research and practice personal communication to express himself better instead of confusing others.

​

 

[Patri]

This thread is revealing that timesharing is way more complicated than it should be, and probably why it is not worth it, or is a huge disappointment to so many. People just want to go on vacation.

 

[jp10558]

This thread is revealing that timesharing is way more complicated than it should be, and probably why it is not worth it, or is a huge disappointment to so many. People just want to go on vacation.

I imagine they're "as simple as they can be" with the internal exchange flexibility, and bolting on too many acquisitions without transitioning them entirely into the purchasing system. I think the flexibility is necessary as the original fixed week purchase was very hard to sell - many people will take limited choices for a bulk discount, but few will take ONE choice. Thought I also think some of this is exacerbated by how the exchange companies have gone also, with "trading power" etc. It would be more egalitarian if it was first come first served one week for one week and more straightforward too. Instead we have these (presumably) discounted alternate currencies so it's even more complicated.

Of course, I also think the rental issue really complicates things too. There's pages and pages about that. It affects owners though and leads to some of the complexity.

I think we also don't have as much insight to how happy or disappointed people are - getting that data is notoriously hard and everyone has a vested interest. TUG might be the one place people regularly discuss how happy they are with their timeshares.

There are plenty of people who are disappointed in anything - often because of lack of knowledge about that thing.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

This thread is revealing that timesharing is way more complicated than it should be, and probably why it is not worth it, or is a huge disappointment to so many. People just want to go on vacation.

TSing is not complicated. Trying to optimize value out of a known cost is complicated, as are all optimization methods (algorithms). And in this one, you have the TS company (or RCI) knowing what you are doing and possibly trying to work against your prev method.
I recently made a Home Wk res with one of my deeds. Easiest vaca I have ever booked at a place I really wanted to go, when I wanted to go there. Easy-Peasy. Oh and zero exchange fee. Add on a few HHonors nights to find better flights. Wham bam

One of the first things I did on tug was survey how many nights HGVC ppl use as Home Wk vs Club Wk vs Open Ssn. I expected maybe 40/40/20. I got prob 5/80/15. Most ppl are almost aghast at the thought of using Home Wk, for 4 or 5 reasons that make sense for them. More power to them. But THAT is what complicates it.
And yes, Points systems in general are surely more complicated, but even there, the quantum-leap in complication is trying to optimize rather than doing the obvious thing. (but then, I've been many many places, and between my wife & I, our view of WHERE we want to go has narrowed & narrowed over the years. Big factor.)

 

[Patri]

My own ts is a place I want to go. I use it. Since it is a lockout, I rent out the other side. I joined RCI for three years for last calls. Have purchased a couple. Will decide at the end if I want to renew. Have owned several resorts through the years, resale, and used the almost free exchange companies. So the system is easy for me. I’m not getting into the points game, or using multiple systems because my needs/wants are being met. Pretty sure I can rent from owners when necessary. I’m not picky on resorts. I am addicted to TUG, which has been helpful. But most ts owners never will be, so getting the best benefits are not going to happen for them.

 

[SteveinHNL]

This thread is revealing that timesharing is way more complicated than it should be, and probably why it is not worth it, or is a huge disappointment to so many. People just want to go on vacation.

Good point. "Vacationing" appeals to everyone, and that's how TS is marketed. However, timesharing is a very specialized subset of vacationing, so you have to make sure you understand what that means, and whether it fits into the kind of vacationing you would like to do. At my age, timesharing suits us perfectly. In my 20's, I'm not so sure if it would have fit.

 

[ScoopKona]

Good point. "Vacationing" appeals to everyone, and that's how TS is marketed. However, timesharing is a very specialized subset of vacationing, so you have to make sure you understand what that means, and whether it fits into the kind of vacationing you would like to do. At my age, timesharing suits us perfectly. In my 20's, I'm not so sure if it would have fit.

I think it's dead simple.

The original timeshares were "buy a week; return to that week -- year after year, for life." Simple.

When RCI first started exchanging, the list of resorts fit on a postcard. One of the salespeople in Key West had one -- owners would check off what they wanted. And what week they wanted. (So they had to know their weeks of the year.) Simple.

The couple who ran RCI divorced. So now we have II and RCI. Still simple.

Lock-offs? Simple.

It wasn't until the hotel systems joined the party -- with their love of point-based everything -- that things became more complex. It's still really simple. Owners have an account with X amount of points. Time in a condo costs points. Spend until the account is depleted.

The devil is in the details -- what maximizes value/trading power/flexibility? It's only when people start asking questions like this that timesharing becomes more complicated than "dead simple." It's my experience that the major hurdle is that people don't want to believe anything is possible. "Timeshares are bad. They're a bad deal. People shouldn't buy them. They don't work." Anything which refutes that mindset is met with a "kill it with fire" attitude.

Trying to explain successful timesharing is not "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." It's more, "If you could get the stubborn mule of a horse to the frikkin' water, maybe it would finally take a drink."

When compared to "rent a hotel room," timeshares are more complicated. But it's far easier than trying to enter the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes or redeem airline points for something useful. EDIT -- The big picture problem is that most people have unrealistic expectations. They want the convenience of hotels-dot-com, but they want the savings of a major-brand timeshare resale. Such a system simply doesn't exist. If it did, EVERYONE would want one.

 

[jehb2]

When compared to "rent a hotel room," timeshares are more complicated

True, however lately I’ve had to booked hotel rooms to attend my kid’s marching band events. I don’t really mind but I have spent an immense amount of time finding a room that’s clean, in a good location, and reasonably priced.

 

[ScoopKona]

True, however lately I’ve had to booked hotel rooms to attend my kid’s marching band events. I don’t really mind but I have spent an immense amount of time finding a room that’s clean, in a good location, and reasonably priced.

Did you have to book a full week, pay for it right after Christmas, and then pay another fee to exchange your hotel for another?

Throw away "reasonably priced" and hotels are dead simple. Then again, throw away "reasonably priced" and almost everything is dead simple.

 

[kanerf]

I always tell people that timeshares are for vacations, not profit. If you are not going to use a timeshare you want to purchase to stay at it or other resorts within the same family that do not require additional fees, do not purchase it. I own many timeshares from DVC, Hilton, Holiday Inn and Wyndham. The difference is that I use them. I very seldom have points left over at the end of the use year to worry about. Last year I spent 224 days in my timeshares. I do use them for work also if you are curious.

 

[jp10558]

I think it's dead simple.

When compared to "rent a hotel room," timeshares are more complicated. But it's far easier than trying to enter the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes or redeem airline points for something useful. EDIT -- The big picture problem is that most people have unrealistic expectations. They want the convenience of hotels-dot-com, but they want the savings of a major-brand timeshare resale. Such a system simply doesn't exist. If it did, EVERYONE would want one.

I really think the "Honest" way to describe the modern time share systems is a Club Store for Vacations. Especially if you buy resale. You pay the yearly membership fee (basically MFs) and in exchange you get access to larger/better accommodations at a lower price than the normal retail price, but at a limited selection of locations. It's pretty much that simple to me. The analogy still works with say RCI if included - it's like the cell phone kiosk in the Club Store - it's not by the company, but again you get lower prices than "MSRP".

The idea that points systems are confusing is I'd argue a cop-out by people just wanting to say "Timeshares bad", because plenty of people think Credit Card Rewards are a great idea, and guess what - they're usually points systems unless they're a percentage cash back.

The confusing part is indeed the optimization planning - but I'd argue you should try and get a timeshare that has value if you just use it and not worry about optimizing. If you're happy with X weeks you bought in the system, then anything else is Bonus. If you really need to get 2,3,4 weeks for one in trading or and or locking off etc - then you're going to be doing a lot more work for that IMO. And it's not guaranteed.

 

[ScoopKona]

I'd argue you should try and get a timeshare that has value if you just use it and not worry about optimizing.

That only works for the people who want to go to the same places or stay within the umbrella of one timeshare company. And while that's the popular wisdom, it isn't correct for everyone.

Popular wisdom also says that "don't timeshare in Europe," while completely ignoring Hapimag's existence. Europe works great with timeshares -- not the timeshare most people in the US own, but that isn't the point. Buy the system that fits the need.

The other popular idea is "don't buy a timeshare just to trade." News to me. I've never, ever stayed in the resort I own. I never will. It's in my home town. I'll just stay at a Conch House in Old Town if I want to go home. Being a 100% trader can also work just fine. But it's not nearly as "buy a week, use your week, you are done for the year."

And then there's the ability to trade one week for four. (Used to be five. They changed it.) There are several companies which allow people to trade for more time if they're willing to trade down in size or season or both. This is how we've seen Europe. We don't like going there in the summer and fighting for a glimpse of David with all the Asian and American tourists. Shoulder season costs less and is more enjoyable. That doesn't work for everyone. But it works great for us.

Finally, successful timeshare trading requires the kind of flexibility which people demand they possess. But in reality few people actually have. Not many people can cheerfully say "Hey, let's go to Norway, Spain or Malta this Spring!" No, it's more like, "I want what I want when I want it." So they're never going to be happy with these trading systems -- as they are designed. (My oft referenced friend who cancels any trip when the weather looks less than perfect, for instance.)