Do you know how much you are getting skimmed?

[m61376]

I think the issues underscored in the posts above are very important. Marriott maintains that legacy owners are just being charged a 10% premium when using points to reserve at their home resort, but that its silly to book using points at one's home resort- and to simply use weeks in that case and then the skim doesn't matter.

The real issue is that it not only impacts what you can book at your own resort, but gives you less value to book anywhere else.

 

[eileenpat]

Question

I am not sure this belongs here but I do not know where else to post it. Does anyone know if there is a Yahoo or other Internet forum for owners at Ocean Watch?. I know of the Ocean Pointe group, but am also interested in the a forum just for Ocean Watch. I feel that as an owner in both places, the OW assigned points are really extremely low. I would be interested in other own opinions.
Thanks.

 

[DanCali]

I think the issues underscored in the posts above are very important. Marriott maintains that legacy owners are just being charged a 10% premium when using points to reserve at their home resort, but that its silly to book using points at one's home resort- and to simply use weeks in that case and then the skim doesn't matter.

The real issue is that it not only impacts what you can book at your own resort, but gives you less value to book anywhere else.

That's exactly right. Marriott's rebuttal that keeps coming up about still being able to book your home resort as a week is just a way to throw sand in our eyes and distract from the truth. But their argument is irrelevant because if we each got 1000 points and could still book our home resort we'd be screaming bloody murder. The fact that we got 7%-13% less than the average of the season makes it less egregious than getting a flat 1000 points, but it doesn't change the fact that it's less than the trading power representative of the season...

 

[m61376]

That's exactly right. Marriott's rebuttal that keeps coming up about still being able to book your home resort as a week is just a way to throw sand in our eyes and distract from the truth. But their argument is irrelevant because if we each got 1000 points and could still book our home resort we'd be screaming bloody murder. The fact that we got 7%-13% less than the average of the season makes it less egregious than getting a flat 1000 points, but it doesn't change the fact that it's less than the trading power representative of the season...

But don't forget many owners did not even get enough points to book any week in their owned season.

I don't think it is meant to be "throwing sand in our eyes" but as a way for them to justify that you are not losing anything if you want to use what you bought- a week in your own resort, in the season you bought. From their vantage point, they are charging a premium for any flexibility- yet touting it as a very user friendly program because of the flexibility and the single fee for all your trades.

The unfortunate thing is that most people will see the razzle dazzle of the flexibility, and not having to pay for lock offs, changes of reservations or trades, or even II membership- so it all looks like a bargain, esp. for multi week owners or even single weeks owners who lock off.

Let's face it- most people aren't neurotic like we are, and don't dissect the ins and out of the program. They take it for face value, and on the surface it looks really glossy. The salespeople will talk about the ability to book where you want, when you want and how long you want, and many people will take out their charge cards.

That's why I am guessing they may meet their 20% goal, but when the dust settles I think there will be many club members- and I am thinking perhaps a majority of them- who later recognize that all that glitters isn't gold, and will continue using and trading in weeks even though they joined the program. Let's face it- if they make one lock-off a year and one trade, along with the II fee they're more than covered. Developer week owners get almost a wash if they can utilize that 800 points.

 

[DanCali]

...I think there will be many club members- and I am thinking perhaps a majority of them- who later recognize that all that glitters isn't gold, and will continue using and trading in weeks even though they joined the program.

I'd rather buy this than pay Marriott $2K just to keep using weeks as weeks... but that's just me. It's also an easier sell to the DW

 

[ocdb8r]

The unfortunate thing is that most people will see the razzle dazzle of the flexibility, and not having to pay for lock offs, changes of reservations or trades, or even II membership- so it all looks like a bargain, esp. for multi week owners or even single weeks owners who lock off.

Let's face it- most people aren't neurotic like we are, and don't dissect the ins and out of the program. They take it for face value, and on the surface it looks really glossy. The salespeople will talk about the ability to book where you want, when you want and how long you want, and many people will take out their charge cards.

That's why I am guessing they may meet their 20% goal, but when the dust settles I think there will be many club members- and I am thinking perhaps a majority of them- who later recognize that all that glitters isn't gold, and will continue using and trading in weeks even though they joined the program. Let's face it- if they make one lock-off a year and one trade, along with the II fee they're more than covered. Developer week owners get almost a wash if they can utilize that 800 points.

To be honest, even as a single week owner, if I lock-off and trade at least one half of my unit each year I come out ahead....and if I trade both halvesI can really save some $$. For that reason I am inclined to join as it won't take too long to recoup the cost and I'm "in" for safety's sake. The only thing keeping me on the fence is pure principle! However, to be honest, I don't think it's a bad thing if Marriott converts their 20% target if people join and then don't choose to convert to points. Maybe they'll realize things have to be adjusted to get people to actually participate in the points program (as opposed to just joining for the other benefits).

 

[wegottago]

skimming and buying points to go to a resort

DanCali: I own one week. Are you saying that if I don't have enough points to go to a resort which requires more points than I was allocated for my unit, I then have to buy these points (at .50 per point...your value)? If so, this could work out to be hundreds of dollars (or thousands)?

If so, then this is alot of extra money I wouldn't want to pay after paying about $25,000 for my 2-bedroom lock-off.

Am I still paying my $1200 annual maintenance fee in the points program?

Thank you.

 

[DanCali]

DanCali: I own one week. Are you saying that if I don't have enough points to go to a resort which requires more points than I was allocated for my unit, I then have to buy these points (at .50 per point...your value)? If so, this could work out to be hundreds of dollars (or thousands)?

If so, then this is alot of extra money I wouldn't want to pay after paying about $25,000 for my 2-bedroom lock-off.

Am I still paying my $1200 annual maintenance fee in the points program?

Thank you.

If you enrolled into points and wanted to use points to book your stay at a different resort (with the convenience of immediate confirmation based on availability in the points exchange) and didn't have enough points, then you can make up the difference by renting points from someone else (or possibly from Marriott if they enter that business). Whether the rate will be $0.50, or less, or more that remains to be seen.

Another option would be to borrow points from next year to use this year. This may involve vacationing once every 2 years to go to where you want to go - not everyone likes this option.

Lastly, you do still have the option to use Interval, just like in the past. You can do this without enrolling in points, just like you'd do today, or you can also use Interval while enrolled in points, from a different (corporate) II account. We do not know yet how different the corporate II account will be from what we know today.

Using interval involves the "waiting game," but given the recent understanding (yet to be confirmed) that the points system is just another exchange program and we actually may not be able to access trust inventory, the "instant confirmation" you'd expect with points may not be what it's advertised to be anyway.

 

[JimIg23]

To be honest, even as a single week owner, if I lock-off and trade at least one half of my unit each year I come out ahead....and if I trade both halvesI can really save some $$. For that reason I am inclined to join as it won't take too long to recoup the cost and I'm "in" for safety's sake. The only thing keeping me on the fence is pure principle! However, to be honest, I don't think it's a bad thing if Marriott converts their 20% target if people join and then don't choose to convert to points. Maybe they'll realize things have to be adjusted to get people to actually participate in the points program (as opposed to just joining for the other benefits).

To add that to, over time I think they will need exchange owners to deposit or trust members may suffer (lack of varied inventory) unless they undertake a massive ROFR and add inventoory to the trust that way, but I am not convinced they would do that because it increases their MF burden and will cause their trust members to increase their MFs. If trust members start complaining, I see them doing something to get exhcange owners to deposit. Exchange members add a great deal to their program, a variety of weeks without the MF burden.

 

[jen]

Cost for points?

I spoke with Marriott about this new program. We own a summer week on HH at Harbour Point which would be worth 1150 points in the new system. To trade points for a summer week back into this resort would be 1125 points so we would not be getting skimmed. However, since we usually were able to trade with II for a beach property on HH in the summer we would need 2675 points to stay at the Monarch or 2900 points to stay at Grand Vista in Orlando. Marriott quoted $16,500 for buying an additional 1750 points! Does this sound right or did I hear them wrong?! I could buy a resale week at Monarch for less! Also, Hilton Grand Vacation Points which would trade into a nice Orlando location is only $11,500 for a premium week.

Can you buy points from resale or only direct from Marriott? Is the price of these points negotiable?

thanks,

 

[windje2000]

I spoke with Marriott about this new program. We own a summer week on HH at Harbour Point which would be worth 1150 points in the new system. To trade points for a summer week back into this resort would be 1125 points so we would not be getting skimmed. However, since we usually were able to trade with II for a beach property on HH in the summer we would need 2675 points to stay at the Monarch or 2900 points to stay at Grand Vista in Orlando. Marriott quoted $16,500 for buying an additional 1750 points! Does this sound right or did I hear them wrong?! I could buy a resale week at Monarch for less! Also, Hilton Grand Vacation Points which would trade into a nice Orlando location is only $11,500 for a premium week.

Can you buy points from resale or only direct from Marriott? Is the price of these points negotiable?

thanks,

jen - there's more to it than just buying points as its not necessarily true that you can combine your deeded interest 1150 points plus any purchased points.

Read the board - there's lots to learn before you jump in.

I believe the moderator is preparing a summary of the points program as a sticky - look for it.

 

[DanCali]

I spoke with Marriott about this new program. We own a summer week on HH at Harbour Point which would be worth 1150 points in the new system. To trade points for a summer week back into this resort would be 1125 points so we would not be getting skimmed. However, since we usually were able to trade with II for a beach property on HH in the summer we would need 2675 points to stay at the Monarch or 2900 points to stay at Grand Vista in Orlando. Marriott quoted $16,500 for buying an additional 1750 points! Does this sound right or did I hear them wrong?! I could buy a resale week at Monarch for less! Also, Hilton Grand Vacation Points which would trade into a nice Orlando location is only $11,500 for a premium week.

Can you buy points from resale or only direct from Marriott? Is the price of these points negotiable?

thanks,

jen - your post attracted my attention quite a bit since I have been saying that ALL owners at ALL resorts in ALL seasons are subjet to skim so if you are correct I may have had to revise that opinion (before I got accused of "wild unsubstantiated allegations...").

But alas...While I did not compute the average of your season for your resort in the spreadsheet in post #1 due to some missing data, it appears to me that you are actually getting skimmed just like the rest of us. It's 1225 points to trade into all summer weeks at your resort (not 1125). Since you got 1150 that's a 6.1 skim relative to the average of your season which I assume is 1225.

I could be wrong about this if there are weeks in your season outside the late May to late August range. I do not have the season chart for your resort so can you please specify the exact weeks in your season? Or it sounds you may actually own a fixed summer week, in which case I don't need to check anything - your skim is as I stated above.

 

[jen]

cost for points

Hi,

Yes I believe you are right we own the week 31 in July so we are getting skimmed too. However, my main point or concern was more about how much extra $$$ it would take to buy enough points to be able to stay at the places we have been getting in trades for the last 10+ years such as Grand Ocean, Monarch and Grand Vista. Marriott said we could trade in our fixed week for 1150 points plus buy additional points to get up to 2900 points to stay at Monarch or Grand Vista in summer season. If I heard the rep right it would cost 16,500 to buy those additional points which seems very high if you add in the original cost of our Harbour Point week. Is anyone getting quotes on how much points cost?

thanks

 

[DanCali]

Hi,

Yes I believe you are right we own the week 31 in July so we are getting skimmed too. However, my main point or concern was more about how much extra $$$ it would take to buy enough points to be able to stay at the places we have been getting in trades for the last 10+ years such as Grand Ocean, Monarch and Grand Vista. Marriott said we could trade in our fixed week for 1150 points plus buy additional points to get up to 2900 points to stay at Monarch or Grand Vista in summer season. If I heard the rep right it would cost 16,500 to buy those additional points which seems very high if you add in the original cost of our Harbour Point week. Is anyone getting quotes on how much points cost?

thanks

The current price is about $9.4 point so if you are looking to add 1750 points that is right around $16.5K... it would also add $700 in MFs annually, which probably nearly doubles your annual cost.

In my opinion buying points from Marriott is ridiculously expensive. Even if you have the 2900 points, you'd probably find you can rent from other owners in the places you want to go to for less than your annual cost. Check the TUG Marketplace or RedWeek.com to get an idea.

I would keep looking for my exchanges in II if I were you. I highly doubt the decline in II inventory will be as dramatic as Marriott wants you to believe. You have a strong summer week in a desirable area - you should be fine. Worst case is that you start adding non-Marriott resorts to your trade requests. There is a whole world out there!

 

[jen]

Cost of Points!

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the feedback and I totally agree with you right now points are overpriced by Marriott especially since my friend bought Hilton GVC points for $11,500 for a premium week in Orlando at a place right next to the Grand Vista. He did buy at a resale place not direct from Hilton but Hilton doesn't penalize him for buying resale. To upgrade my Marriott to points to get a week at Grand Vista I would be paying ~$15,000 plus my original cost of ~$7,000 plus $1,500 one-time buy in fee for a total of $23,500 compared to what he paid at $11,500 which is about double.

If at some point Marriott starting allowing points to be sold at resale with no penalty (do they allow this now?) or if they brought their price down to compete with Hilton then I'd be more interested in converting.

thanks,
Steve

 

[DanCali]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the feedback and I totally agree with you right now points are overpriced by Marriott especially since my friend bought Hilton GVC points for $11,500 for a premium week in Orlando at a place right next to the Grand Vista. He did buy at a resale place not direct from Hilton but Hilton doesn't penalize him for buying resale. To upgrade my Marriott to points to get a week at Grand Vista I would be paying ~$15,000 plus my original cost of ~$7,000 plus $1,500 one-time buy in fee for a total of $23,500 compared to what he paid at $11,500 which is about double.

And your friend would probably also have lower maintenace fees than you would if you added $700 a year in MFs for the 1750 points...

If at some point Marriott starting allowing points to be sold at resale with no penalty (do they allow this now?) or if they brought their price down to compete with Hilton then I'd be more interested in converting.

There are no resale Marriott points yet, and it will probably be a while before a reasonable market for that develops.

 

[m61376]

There are no resale Marriott points yet, and it will probably be a while before a reasonable market for that develops.

Furthermore, as of now unless you buy points from Marriott or an approved broker you won't be able to enroll in the program; if I am not mistaken, use of those points would be limited to 60 days or less.

Of course that, like everything else, is subject to change.

As a matter of fact, that's the first thing I'd ask a salesperson- what happens if I want or need to sell?

 

[jen]

Cost of points

Interesting the Marriott sales rep quoting me prices on points did not even mention that my maint. fee would go up. Bottom line is right now the points system is not worth it for many owners and Marriott needs to change the program to be simpler and cheaper. II is a much better option for now.

 

[dmharris]

A few questions after reading these threads:

Do new owners who buy points have to pay maintenance fees?

If many of the resorts have their weeks sold out as deeded weeks, how is there any inventory? If new buyers come in to buy points and e.g. every deeded owner booked their week at their home resort, would the new buyer have ANY availability at that resort?

This troubles me that if Marriott is selling more than the deeded, full bought out inventory. Somehow that almost seems illegal.

Which of you smart folks can unmuddle my mind?

 

[wvacations]

Do new owners who buy points have to pay maintenance fees?

Yes. Right now the MF's are $0.40 per point. These change as Marriott sees fit. No ELECTED Board Of Directors voting on expenses.

If many of the resorts have their weeks sold out as deeded weeks, how is there any inventory? If new buyers come in to buy points and e.g. every deeded owner booked their week at their home resort, would the new buyer have ANY availability at that resort?

No. DC gets inventory form, unsold weeks, weeks converted to MR points, weeks converted to DC points and weeks deposited to II. In your scenario there would be no availability to point owners. But, if that happens (everyone booked and used their week), there would not have been availability under the old system either for exchangers. DC is just another (expensive) exchanging option.

 

[dioxide45]

Yes. Right now the MF's are $0.40 per point. These change as Marriott sees fit. No ELECTED Board Of Directors voting on expenses.

Actually I thin there may be an elected BOD as the years go by. I read something about a proxy for trust owners.

Also the MF aren't just set by the trustees. They are a calculation of the MF at all the weeks in the trust divided by the total number of points. What would be interesting to know is does Marriott have their normal 10-15% fee added in to the trust MF as the trust is also paying that 10-15% for each week it owns. They could be double dipping,