Do you know how much you are getting skimmed?

[windje2000]

My understanding until now is that they cannot just raise all prices by 10%. I thought the number of points at each resort was fixed so if they raise the price (points) for 1 week, they need to lower the price for a different week. I didn't dig into those documents, but that was my impression based on reading other posts somewhere along the way.

What you are saying is something else - and if it is true it could open a whole new can of worms... but I am not sure it'd be allowed for Marriott to do that.

As for the static analysis - that's the best I can do given the data But at least all the data is there so it's relatively objective and valid given the 2011 calendar we got from Marriott itself...

My comment about the analysis as static was in no sense intended to be pejorative. I'll repeat my thanks for your efforts in putting that together and sharing it.

I've seen nothing in the documents that would rule this scenario out. But I'll be the first to admit I buy pencils with erasers on them

 

[DanCali]

Depends on how they got rid of it. Would they give owners enough points to get anything in their season, or just the average? Most NCV owners would not be happy if they could still not get enough points for July, August and most desert owners would not be happy if we could not get enough points for March-April.

To duplicate the way that Disney, Hilton, etc have done it, they would have to reduce the number of different point reservation categories. They usually only sold 3 (sometimes 4) seasons, but now they have 6-8 different point totals for the year.

But if NCV owners could still book July and August as weeks, then the average of the season in points just represents a fair value for the strength of the Platinum season at NCV. Some owners may still feel that's not fair because their reservation history shows they do better than average, but if you can (i) book any week in your season as a week and (ii) get the fair value of the average "trading power of your season" in points whenever you choose to and (iii) use II for uptrades then that's not all bad...

But, personally, I don't think the skim is going anywhere. I'd be very impressed if Marriott came out, admitted a mistake, and removed it. I don't think it will happen...

 

[pipet]

I think it's more likely that they decide they made a mistake and get rid of skim. I am wondering what owners on this message board would do if they did?

I would at least understand it (there is inherent fairness, and there would be too many points in the system if everyone got the highest value for their season). I would accept it. The program is still more costly to someone like me (with past infrequent trades), but at least I wouldn't look at it as a ripoff. In fact, I might be encouraged to join and use points at least every other year to buy 2.5 less expensive weeks just to feel like I was getting value out of the membership fee.

I am sad to pay a price for a poorly designed season in my home resort, but Marriott can't undo what's already deeded for people. When I bought in Hawaii, I would have paid more for a guaranteed summer season if given the choice. Getting a summer week was one of my concerns when buying, but the rep assured us that if we reserved early, we would get a summer week, which has been true for us.

I do agree with other postings here that the only way to truly make everyone happy in this regard is to charge the same number of points for any week in a season, making it a true equivalent of weeks. Still, just eliminating the skim would create a lot of goodwill IMO.

I am also skeptical of Marriott making a change.

 

[DanCali]

Note to Moderator

In the spirit of helping owners understand how the points system affects them, is there any chance we can add the spreadsheet with the average points in each season and resort as a sticky?

 

[BocaBoy]

But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved? That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".

 

[ArtsieAng]

But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved? That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".

One example...........I need two units in one year. I want to save my points until the following year so that I can vacation with my grown children/friends. Unfortunately, I cannot book my own week using my points because Marriott has not given me the correct number of points to do so. Sigh.

 

[DanCali]

But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved? That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".

Not really... The skim comes from the fact that you get less than the average points required to trade into your season. You are getting shortchanged on your trading power, which happens to be points. It has nothing to do with how you use your points.

Since you get less than the average of your season, it affects your ability to do like for like trades. Incidentally, it also affects your ability to exchange back into your "home resort" into a representative week if you change your mind, but as I said before I don't view it as a home resort once you convert in a given year.

Taking your above argument to the extreme - if Marriott gave you 1000 points (or, alternatively, just enough to book the lowest demand week in your season) for each of your Hawaii weeks would you still say there was no skim just because you can book a week at your home resort as a week?

 

[ArtsieAng]

But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved? That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".

Another example......I convert my week into points hoping to be able to exchange into a high demand week/location. Unfortunately, I am unable to get what I was hoping for, so I decide that I would like to book my 2nd choice, my home resort. Nope, no can do.......

 

[rsackett]

But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved? That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".

It is NOT the only way he is getting skimmed! Let me put it this way; I own resort "A" it only has one season. Marriott wants 2500 points to stay one week at my resort. Marriott offers me 2300 points for my resort.

I would like to exchange into resort "B", Marriott is asking for 2500 points for the week I would like to go to resort "B". By Marriott's estimation of value, since both A & B require 2500 points they are equivalent weeks/resorts. In the points system I do not have adequate points to get an equivalent week, I can now with points only get 6 nights for the 7 nights I give Marriott.

For Marriott to say "ALL trading fees are included in our $169 annual fee" and then take value from me when I trade using points is dishonest. Skimming does matter.

Ray

 

[pipet]

But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved? That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".

Another rebuttal:

I see you own at all the Hawaiian islands where Marriott has a resort, so maybe you don't see the skim. If you want Maui, you book Maui. If you want Kauai, you book Kauai, etc.

Now step back and look at Ko Olina. Imagine if you only owned at Ko Olina. If you have penthouse OV this doesn't apply to you, but look at what other owners have. A Ko Olina 2BR plat OV gets 4950 points. Now look at the points to get into the Waiohai at the lowest season. 5025! You can't get an equal view exchange ever using points! Bah! You say, II couldn't guarantee view anyway.

Now imagine that you own a 2BR Ko Olina IV. You cant get into Waiohai IV without downsizing your unit! Those resorts were pretty darn close in price, and if there wasn't skim, at least you could afford low season points bookings (this doesn't take into account season skim at all).

This is what people are complaining about. As a Waiohai owner, I am annoyed that I don't get my full value when doing interisland exchanges.

OK, so, Maui costs a little more than my resort, and maybe I shouldn't consider that an equal exchange. OK. I got that. I would understand needing to borrow/rent/etc a few more points to bump me up, but if I am not given full value for my home resort, it means I am way shorter on points than I should be based on how much my resort costs (which is very closely aligned to point values).

 

[davidvel]

It is NOT the only way he is getting skimmed! Let me put it this way; I own resort "A" it only has one season. Marriott wants 2500 points to stay one week at my resort. Marriott offers me 2300 points for my resort.

I would like to exchange into resort "B", Marriott is asking for 2500 points for the week I would like to go to resort "B". By Marriott's estimation of value, since both A & B require 2500 points they are equivalent weeks/resorts. In the points system I do not have adequate points to get an equivalent week, I can now with points only get 6 nights for the 7 nights I give Marriott.

For Marriott to say "ALL trading fees are included in out $169 annual fee" and then take value from me when I trade using points is dishonest. Skimming does matter.

Ray

This is the most concise explanation of how skim affects you if you decide to use points.

 

[GeNioS]

It is NOT the only way he is getting skimmed! Let me put it this way; I own resort "A" it only has one season. Marriott wants 2500 points to stay one week at my resort. Marriott offers me 2300 points for my resort.

I would like to exchange into resort "B", Marriott is asking for 2500 points for the week I would like to go to resort "B". By Marriott's estimation of value, since both A & B require 2500 points they are equivalent weeks/resorts. In the points system I do not have adequate points to get an equivalent week, I can now with points only get 6 nights for the 7 nights I give Marriott.

For Marriott to say "ALL trading fees are included in our $169 annual fee" and then take value from me when I trade using points is dishonest. Skimming does matter.

Ray

And don't forget the person at resort "B" who wants to trade into my resort A. They are short enough points as well.....

 

[m61376]

I posed this specific question when I spoke to the Director of Customer Advocacy. It is my understanding that the points that we are given for our weeks will not change (up or down) once established, however it is very possible that the Marriott Points Chart will change.

Specific weeks may go up/down depending on actual demand and supply, however the total points required will remain the same. If a specific week goes down, then something else went up to compensate.

By the way, I'm trying to be more on point here -- I started one of my skim rants but then decided it was just repeat of my other skim rants, so I deleted it. That's progress towards remaining factual, isn't it???

Best to all,

Greg

And my understanding is that if the usage/demand dictates it, that both points allocated and point costs can be changed, but if something in the trust goes up, something will go down. Thus, if they find demand between or within properties is different than they expected or changes over time, they can make these adjustments.

 

[Hawkwin]

Take the number of points you get for your unit - then look at the spreadsheet for the season you own, at the resort you own. You will find that the number of points Marriott is giving you for your unit, will not be enough points (most likely, or at least not for the whole season) to obtain a week in your season.

In other words, my Maui Ocean Club gets me 3,100 points if I hand it into Marriott. I always go in July to Maui. If I want to obtain a summer week using points in Maui, my same unit will cost me 3,550 points. So Marriott gives me 3,100 for my summer unit, but charges me 3,550 points to rent it back out - therefore they skim off of me the difference of 450 points. Make sense?

The spreadsheet calculates averages across the entire season, unit size, view, etc for each resort. For instance, if I wanted to use my 3,100 points to trade back into Maui, I could do that, but only for a few off season weeks in my season. The rest of my season costs me more points than they give me. My resort is not that bad, some are getting skimmed far worse.

How is this skimming? Can you not book your home resort without going through this system for a summer month?

The whole point of the new system is to go to a new location within Marriott, not to use it to book a different time at your home resort.

The new system, whether I am a member or not, does not keep me from using any week I purchased at my home resorts. If I wanted to upgrade to a higher demand week (gold to platinum in the case of Myrtle), I still would not be able to exchange for such via Interval - so a higher point cost makes sense.

I paid more for my Vegas week than I did my Myrtle week (and I bought my Vegas week nearly 10 years ago now), yet my Myrtle week is worth 200 more points, so I am getting a bit more value there if I use this new program to stay an extra week in Vegas - and I can save the difference in points for a future year.

 

[DanCali]

How is this skimming? Can you not book your home resort without going through this system for a summer month?

In order to avoid repetition, please read the replies to BocaBoy following post #55... (in particular read posts 56-62) which address the same question you ask and show that skimming can coexist with the ability to book your home resort.

As for how much you are getting skimmed n each of your weeks, see the spreadsheet linked in post #1.

 

[Hawkwin]

One example...........I need two units in one year. I want to save my points until the following year so that I can vacation with my grown children/friends. Unfortunately, I cannot book my own week using my points because Marriott has not given me the correct number of points to do so. Sigh.

In this case, you could still use interval with the deposit first feature to ensure you have that week.

In the example you list above, you are asking for something (right or wrong) that the system was not designed to provide. Interval's method would still be the means by which you can do the above.

I had a similiar situation this year where I could not reserve my requested week via Marriott so I reserved a different week, and then used Interval to exchange for my desired week at the same resort.

 

[l2trade]

In the spirit of helping owners understand how the points system affects them, is there any chance we can add the spreadsheet with the average points in each season and resort as a sticky?

I 2nd that idea!!!

DanCali - Thank you so much for sharing this spreadsheet. You saved me a lot of time! Awesome job!

I think it would be helpful if we can also create a spreadsheet to store the point values Marriott gives owners for converting each of these deeds (as reported by owners? - I'm not sure how else to find this info other than surfing through many threads), along with the MF for that week.

 

[DanCali]

I 2nd that idea!!!

I think it would be helpful if we can also create a spreadsheet to store the point values Marriott gives owners for converting each of these deeds (as reported by owners? - I'm not sure how else to find this info other than surfing through many threads), along with the MF for that week.

I'd need to hire a research assitant for that one

The point of that spreadsheet was to provide owners the information they need regarding the average points required to trade into their season. I thought about including the points given to each resort/season but (i) I realized I don't have all the information and, more importantly, (ii) it seemed unnecessary given the purpose of the spreadsheet.

I wasn't interested in calculating the skimming across all resorts. I computed the skimming for my own resort and gave each owner the option to do the same for their resort/season by seeing what the average number of points in their season is and comparing to what Marriott gave them. Now owners (who find this thread) can hopefully make a more informed decision regarding enrollment in the points system in case they didn't previously compute the same info on their own.

Given the benefit I derived from TUG over the past year, I was happy to spend the past weekend doing this. So far the spreadsheet has been downloaded/viewed over 250 times in 24 hours - I'm glad you and others find it helpful or at least interesting, and appreciate the vote for a sticky

 

[DanCali]

In this case, you could still use interval with the deposit first feature to ensure you have that week.

In the example you list above, you are asking for something (right or wrong) that the system was not designed to provide. Interval's method would still be the means by which you can do the above.

I had a similiar situation this year where I could not reserve my requested week via Marriott so I reserved a different week, and then used Interval to exchange for my desired week at the same resort.

Hawkwin - you keep focusing on everything but the skimming... rsackett probably had an excellent post describing the problem:

Let me put it this way; I own resort "A" it only has one season. Marriott wants 2500 points to stay one week at my resort. Marriott offers me 2300 points for my resort.

I would like to exchange into resort "B", Marriott is asking for 2500 points for the week I would like to go to resort "B". By Marriott's estimation of value, since both A & B require 2500 points they are equivalent weeks/resorts. In the points system I do not have adequate points to get an equivalent week, I can now with points only get 6 nights for the 7 nights I give Marriott.

For Marriott to say "ALL trading fees are included in our $169 annual fee" and then take value from me when I trade using points is dishonest. Skimming does matter.

In your particular case I believe you say somewhere you own at Grand Chateau. Had Marriott given you 2000 points for your Platinum 2BR at MGC would that have still been ok as long as you could book your home resort as a week? There is not much you can do with 2000 points...

How do you determine what is the right allocation? Forget for a second whether you can book your home resort of not - the point is that you have some week with some trading power represented by points. Are you getting that trading power or are you getting less? How did Marriott determine what it gave owners? How do you determine whether what you got is equitable? To me, giving owners the average required to trade into their season seems like the right answer, and also happens to be the answer in all other points systems.

If Marriott gave each owner the average required to trade into their season (3513 for a 2BR 1-51 float at MGC) then the owners would have, in aggregate, enough points to book all weeks available in the points inventory. When Marriott gives owners anything less then (i) you are getting less than the actual trading power of your week and (ii) there are days/weeks that will go vacant in the points inventory. Who monetizes that? Are those weeks rented and the money disbursed to HOAs, or does Marriott monetize those weeks/points? These are important issues that we should not ignore. 10% skim is 10% of points inventory. That's a lot of money that goes unanswered for...

 

[ArtsieAng]

DanCali

To me, giving owners the average required to trade into their season seems like the right answer, and also happens to be the answer in all other points systems.

Exactly......Rationalizing that you can still utilize the old system, does not negate the fact that Marriott is skimming weeks in their point system, when it comes to Legacy weeks owners.

Not a great way to treat/thank 400,000 loyal customers, IMO. In fact, I would have thought that Marriott would have done just the opposite, and somehow, rewarded their Legacy week owners. Oh well.......

 

[tombo]

If Marriott gave each owner the average required to trade into their season (3513 for a 2BR 1-51 float at MGC) then the owners would have, in aggregate, enough points to book all weeks available in the points inventory. When Marriott gives owners anything less then (i) you are getting less than the actual trading power of your week and (ii) there are days/weeks that will go vacant in the points inventory. Who monetizes that? Are those weeks rented and the money disbursed to HOAs, or does Marriott monetize those weeks/points? These are important issues that we should not ignore. 10% skim is 10% of points inventory. That's a lot of money that goes unanswered for...

To give owners the average would be better than they are doing now, but it still would be ripping owners off. If every owner gets the average, then every owner would have enough points to get some weeks in their season, but NO owners would have enough points to reserve a prime week in their season. If I am entitled to get any platinum season at my resort, I should be allocated enough points to reserve any platinum season at my resort. Receiving the average leaves ALL prime weeks out of reach of ALL owners, leaving them shorted in the value received versus the value of what you deposited. If no owners get enough points to equal prime weeks at their home resorts, then every owner has to trade down using points throughout the system and nobody gets enough points when they deposit to equal the best weeks they are entitled to reserve.


As I said if prime in season weeks are 3000 points, low in season weeks are 2500 points, and all owners receive 2750 points, no owners can afford to reserve prime in season weeks because no owners are given 3000 points. You deposit a week worth 3000 points, but you don't get 3000 points to reserve a like prime week elsewhere, or at your own resort the following year. Give all platinum owners at xyz resort 3000 points, make all platinum weeks at xyz resort worth 3000 points, then the system is fair. Why should all in season weeks be available using weeks but only a limited few weeks be available in season using points?


Who gets those prime in season weeks that are out of reach of every owner at every resort? The only people who can reserve like prime weeks at identicaly rated resorts are multiple week owners, owners who borrow points, or those who buy more points. Think of all the points that will remain unused. Who keeps those? Think of all the weeks that are unrentable using points that should have been rentable. Marriott keeps the points they skim, Marriott keeps the leftover points owners don't use after 2 years, Marriott controls the inventory owners can't afford, Marriott comes out like a bandit both literally and figurativelly.

 

[ocdb8r]

To give owners the average would be better than they are doing now, but it still would be ripping owners off. If every owner gets the average, then every owner would have enough points to get some weeks in their season, but NO owners would have enough points to reserve a prime week in their season. If I am entitled to get any platinum season at my resort, I should be allocated enough points to reserve any platinum season at my resort. Receiving the average leaves ALL prime weeks out of reach of ALL owners, leaving them shorted in the value received versus the value of what you deposited. If no owners get enough points to equal prime weeks at their home resorts, then every owner has to trade down using points throughout the system and nobody gets enough points when they deposit to equal the best weeks they are entitled to reserve.


As I said if prime in season weeks are 3000 points, low in season weeks are 2500 points, and all owners receive 2750 points, no owners can afford to reserve prime in season weeks because no owners are given 3000 points. You deposit a week worth 3000 points, but you don't get 3000 points to reserve a like prime week elsewhere, or at your own resort the following year. Give all platinum owners at xyz resort 3000 points, make all platinum weeks at xyz resort worth 3000 points, then the system is fair. Why should all in season weeks be available using weeks but only a limited few weeks be available in season using points?


Who gets those prime in season weeks that are out of reach of every owner at every resort? The only people who can reserve like prime weeks at identicaly rated resorts are multiple week owners, owners who borrow points, or those who buy more points. Think of all the points that will remain unused. Who keeps those? Think of all the weeks that are unrentable using points that should have been rentable. Marriott keeps the points they skim, Marriott keeps the leftover points owners don't use after 2 years, Marriott controls the inventory owners can't afford, Marriott comes out like a bandit both literally and figurativelly.

I think this hits the nail on the head and is the bottom line.

No matter how you slice it, Marriott is charging other points user MORE to use your week than they are giving you to relinquish your week....THAT is skimming. Sure, it may not affect your deeded rights as you can always reserve whatever week you want in your season, but any legacy weeks owners that participate in any given year are guaranteeing Marriott will pocket some points somewhere. Now normally, I am fine and good with a middle man taking his cut, however Marriott is trying to play it as if their cut is only the club fee you pay every year...simply not the case.

Further, as pointed out above, skimming along with many of the other policies, is aimed at reducing overall usage so Marriott can capitalize on flexiblity in order to make $$$ via rentals or other programs. It also relieves the pressure on the system that will be created from sales from their point trust...as those owners will buy in thinking they ALL will be able to reserve peak nights. Skimming ensures there is more play in the system so points owners feel like they can get their money's worth.

I don't necessarily agree that you should have received sufficient points to reserve ANY week within your season, as people are correct in pointing out that for you have the right to reserve any week in your season via your traditional deed. However, I do feel Marriott should have given people the TRUE average of the points required to reserve in their season as opposed the skimming 6-10%

There is ONE possible upside to this debate. At the end of the day, skimming and these other policies create excess inventory that Marriott has to offload somehow. While I am sure they will be happy to rent where they can, I think they will also end up with many unused weeks/nights that will get dumped into II. It may be more last minute, but for flexchangers it could result in some very nice trades.

 

[l2trade]

I'd need to hire a research assitant for that one

The point of that spreadsheet was to provide owners the information they need regarding the average points required to trade into their season. I thought about including the points given to each resort/season but (i) I realized I don't have all the information and, more importantly, (ii) it seemed unnecessary given the purpose of the spreadsheet.

I wasn't interested in calculating the skimming across all resorts. I computed the skimming for my own resort and gave each owner the option to do the same for their resort/season by seeing what the average number of points in their season is and comparing to what Marriott gave them. Now owners (who find this thread) can hopefully make a more informed decision regarding enrollment in the points system in case they didn't previously compute the same info on their own.

Given the benefit I derived from TUG over the past year, I was happy to spend the past weekend doing this. So far the spreadsheet has been downloaded/viewed over 250 times in 24 hours - I'm glad you and others find it helpful or at least interesting, and appreciate the vote for a sticky

Yes, the spreadsheet as it exists is valuable. It should be a sticky.

My desire is for us to collectively assemble points, MR option and MF given to each resort/season. This could be a separate effort and separate spreadsheet to also share as part of a Marriott Point System sticky. I do not know how to assemble this alone, nor would I expect you to go at it alone either.

It is NOT about calculating points skimming for me. I've read enough overall subjective observational posts on that to understand it.

DanCali - I will send you a PM

 

[tombo]

Yes, the spreadsheet as it exists is valuable. It should be a sticky.

A sticky is a great idea. I second the motion. Do the ayes have it?

 

[GregT]

I would also like to see this spreadsheet as a sticky and think it is useful information to anyone who stumbles across this board and is trying to understand the issue.

Since this thread has many opinions (and therefore likley isn't appropriate to be part of the sticky), can Post #59 (or at least a subset of the post) be added to the spreadsheet sticky since it is clear and concise?