Deedbacks Even for "Dog Weeks"!

[TUGBrian]

The foreclosure process doesn't take years. If an owner falls behind on their loan or their maintenance fees, the foreclosure process can happen in a reasonable amount of time (after efforts are made to work with the owner to bring them back current).

Foreclosure actually can take years in many states!

however it rarely ever gets to that point and after a certain amount of time (though usually measured in many months, if not MORE than a year) the resort will reach out to the homeowner to negotiate a surrender or settlement instead of pursuing foreclosure.

 

[rjp123]

however it rarely ever gets to that point and after a certain amount of time (though usually measured in many months, if not MORE than a year) the resort will reach out to the homeowner to negotiate a surrender or settlement instead of pursuing foreclosure.

Same-same.

The full recovery process can begin as early as 180 days from delinquency. There is a slide from the June 2024 HGV Investor presentation that details this:

Default procedures [HGV property]

After much deliberation, watching all the videos, I have decided to default on an HGV property on which I still owe payments. I understand the impacts of this action on my credit score and other financial implications. Right now, I have halted payments with no notification to the resort or HGV...

www.tugbbs.com

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[Tamaradarann]

The foreclosure process doesn't take years. If an owner falls behind on their loan or their maintenance fees, the foreclosure process can happen in a reasonable amount of time (after efforts are made to work with the owner to bring them back current).

Once it's been foreclosed the week goes back into the developer pool and HGV pays the maintenance fees until it is sold.

If you join your annual owners meeting, they will talk about the maintenance fees and what percent of owners are current. Unpaid fees are not a significant issue with most HGV resorts - and having a bunch of developer-owned weeks is actually a good thing because it guarantees payment.


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I have attended some Annual Owners Meetings and they didn't know the number of owners were delinquent. I don't know where you are locsted that you don't feel that the foreclosure process take years. I have heard that it takes about 5 years at certain resorts before the forclosure goes through and the week can be sold. Here in Hawaii we are paying increased Condominium Maintenance Fees due to delinquent owners and we are waiting for years for Foreclosure. Perhaps I am over sensitive about the effect of delinquent owners on maintenance fees since their problem is effecting our home.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

I agree with you that HGVC doesn't differential between original and resale deeds on their sales floor. My thought is a response to statements about Dog Weeks being a problem and not being Deeded Back since they have low value. Since a Deeded Back week doesn't cost HGVC anything to obtain the inventory they COULD offer Dog Weeks at a very low price when perspective buyers at the presentation don't bite for the higher price weeks.

HGV and most other TS companies do offer the Dog weeks at a lower cost to potential buyers. Its been a while since i engaged in a serious purchase conversation with a TS company, but I am sure they size the prospects up as best they can to make an offer that might appeal to them, and then refine the offer as they gain more information.

I think it would be problematic from an accounting perspective to try and offer weeks they acquired via deed back at a lower price point than similar "new" inventory.

.

 

[rjp123]

I have attended some Annual Owners Meetings and they didn't know the number of owners were delinquent. I don't know where you are locsted that you don't feel that the foreclosure process take years. I have heard that it takes about 5 years at certain resorts before the forclosure goes through and the week can be sold. Here in Hawaii we are paying increased Condominium Maintenance Fees due to delinquent owners and we are waiting for years for Foreclosure. Perhaps I am over sensitive about the effect of delinquent owners on maintenance fees since their problem is effecting our home.

Your board of directors, association management and property management teams know the exact number of owners who are delinquent or in default/foreclosure. It's reviewed at every board meeting and if asked they should be able to answer. Have you emailed them to ask?

I don't know the particulars of your resort, but there would need to be hundreds upon hundreds of delinquent owners who still hold the deed (non-foreclosed) and aren't paying for it to be material part of your annual fees.



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[dioxide45]

I am not talking about secondary market sales I am talking about at Presentations. I have never bought a week other than Platinum on the secondary market. My point is that I don't think that HGVC sells the Dog Weeks at a low enough price to make them attractive at Presentations; and they can afford to deed them back and do that.

What helps the HOA's is maintenance fee paying owners. If Dog Week owners can't Deed Back the units they no longer want then they will default on their maintenance. It will be years of none paying maintenance until a Foreclosure and resale. Speeding the process up by Deeding Back Dog Weeks is a way to get the MFs paid again quicker.

I am saying that even Hilton, Marriott and the others sell dog weeks for a lot less than Platinum. If your example is $10,000 compared to a prime week at $20K, they are already doing that.

 

[rjp123]

... there would need to be hundreds upon hundreds of delinquent owners who still hold the deed (non-foreclosed) and aren't paying for it to be material part of your annual fees.

Here's a fictional example to prove my point:

Let's say there is a property in Hawaii, the "Bagoon Tower", in Waikiki. 21 floors, 11 units per floor. The numbers below are just my quick math:

That means there are roughly 12,000 intervals in this property.

Maintenance fees at the Bagoon Tower are $2k per year per interval.

If one interval defaults and doesn't pay, the other 11,999 owners need to each pony up $0.17 additional to cover this delinquent maintenance fee for one year.

If 100 owners default, the other 11,900 owners each need to pay $16.80 more per year to cover the delinquent fee.

If 1000 owners default, the 11,000 other owners need to pay $181 more per year to cover the gap.

The number of owners in default needs to become pretty big before this becomes a material issue against its fees.

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[Tamaradarann]

Your board of directors, association management and property management teams know the exact number of owners who are delinquent or in default/foreclosure. It's reviewed at every board meeting and if asked they should be able to answer. Have you emailed them to ask?

I don't know the particulars of your resort, but there would need to be hundreds upon hundreds of delinquent owners who still hold the deed (non-foreclosed) and aren't paying for it to be material part of your annual fees.



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I am not that interested in the specific number of owners that are delinquent. However, I saw the 2025 budget breakdown for a Vacation Village Timeshare and the delinqencies were costing me $250 in annual maintenance. I feel that is a material part of my annual fees of about $1100/year.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Here's a fictional example to prove my point:

Let's say there is a property in Hawaii, the "Bagoon Tower", in Waikiki. 21 floors, 11 units per floor. The numbers below are just my quick math:

That means there are roughly 12,000 intervals in this property.

Maintenance fees at the Bagoon Tower are $2k per year per interval.

If one interval defaults and doesn't pay, the other 11,999 owners need to each pony up $0.17 additional to cover this delinquent maintenance fee for one year.

If 100 owners default, the other 11,900 owners each need to pay $16.80 more per year to cover the delinquent fee.

If 1000 owners default, the 11,000 other owners need to pay $181 more per year to cover the gap.

The number of owners in default needs to become pretty big before this becomes a material issue against its fees.

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OK so using your example if a timeshare that I own costs me around $250 per year in maintenance do to delinquencies then there are about 1400 owner defaults.

 

[Tamaradarann]

HGV and most other TS companies do offer the Dog weeks at a lower cost to potential buyers. Its been a while since i engaged in a serious purchase conversation with a TS company, but I am sure they size the prospects up as best they can to make an offer that might appeal to them, and then refine the offer as they gain more information.

I think it would be problematic from an accounting perspective to try and offer weeks they acquired via deed back at a lower price point than similar "new" inventory.

.

After a resort has been selling for a number of years there really is no "new" inventory. There may be some left over weeks that never sold and some that the owners stopped paying their maintenance and/or mortagage and HGVC Deeded Back or Forclosed.

At that point they could offer all "Dog Weeks" at a singificantly lower price than "prime weeks"

 

[Tamaradarann]

I am saying that even Hilton, Marriott and the others sell dog weeks for a lot less than Platinum. If your example is $10,000 compared to a prime week at $20K, they are already doing that.

The $10K and $20K examples are my number not Hilton's. I don't think they sell "Dog Weeks" at 1/2 price; perhaps they should!

 

[rjp123]

I am not that interested in the specific number of owners that are delinquent. However, I saw the 2025 budget breakdown for a Vacation Village Timeshare and the delinqencies were costing me $250 in annual maintenance. I feel that is a material part of my annual fees of about $1100/year.

I can't comment on a Vacation Village timeshare and don't know how they are run or operated. They clearly have different standards around collections, initiating loans/mortgages and bad debt management.

HGV resorts are some of the best run properties in the world and I haven't seen a situation like this or heard of a situation like this with any HGV property.

Maybe voice your concern to the Vacation Village forum and talk to other owners there? I think it's a little disingenuous to be so focused on this issue here when it's not even related to HGV.

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[9969hi]

I attended a yearly meeting at Mizner Place a couple of years ago, and asked about the large percentage of maintenance
fees being used for bad debt. They management and the board said if was partially caused a large number of military families that purchase and didn't continue to pay. I had sales staff admit that sales people don't do a very good job of investigating the ability to pay of purchasers and once they get their commission they didn't care if the loan and maintenance are paid.

 

[Tamaradarann]

I attended a yearly meeting at Mizner Place a couple of years ago, and asked about the large percentage of maintenance
fees being used for bad debt. They management and the board said if was partially caused a large number of military families that purchase and didn't continue to pay. I had sales staff admit that sales people don't do a very good job of investigating the ability to pay of purchasers and once they get their commission they didn't care if the loan and maintenance are paid.

I believe that is true. Isn't that the persception we have of every Timeshare Sales Person. Is HGVC any different?

 

[Tamaradarann]

I can't comment on a Vacation Village timeshare and don't know how they are run or operated. They clearly have different standards around collections, initiating loans/mortgages and bad debt management.

HGV resorts are some of the best run properties in the world and I haven't seen a situation like this or heard of a situation like this with any HGV property.

Maybe voice your concern to the Vacation Village forum and talk to other owners there? I think it's a little disingenuous to be so focused on this issue here when it's not even related to HGV.

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We owned 6 HGVC Timeshares and still own 3. We love HGVC timeshares and share your feelings about how well they are run. The reason we Deeded back the 3 timeshares is that we need so many points to stay in Honolulu for the entire winter. Since we live there now we didn't need so many points.

I started this thread in the HGVC Forum since there was a previous discussion about Deeding Back weeks in a thread on the HGVC Forum where someone mentioned a concern with deeding back "Dog Weeks" and I wanted to comment. The thread was closed do to some political discussion.

If there is no problem with Deeding Back "Dog Weeks" in the HGVC system then you are correct that this thread is misplaced in the HGVC forum. Is Deeding Back "Dog Weeks" not an issue with HGVC?

 

[Tamaradarann]

I can't comment on a Vacation Village timeshare and don't know how they are run or operated. They clearly have different standards around collections, initiating loans/mortgages and bad debt management.

HGV resorts are some of the best run properties in the world and I haven't seen a situation like this or heard of a situation like this with any HGV property.

Maybe voice your concern to the Vacation Village forum and talk to other owners there? I think it's a little disingenuous to be so focused on this issue here when it's not even related to HGV.

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I have made a number of comments in the Vacation Village Forum about their not having a Deedback Program. Perhaps the reason they have so many deliquencies is that they DON'T have Deedback Program so owners who don't want to continue to pay their maintenance just stop paying. Therefore, the remaining owners have to pay higher maintenance to make up for the delinquencies.

By the way I have said the above on the Vacation Village Forum before so don't suggest that I do it.

 

[Tamaradarann]

dog/mud weeks have always been a problem without a good solution for sure!

I just read on the Deedback Thread on TUG that a Silver Week in Las Vegas was Deeded Back by HGVC. Perhaps HGVC is doing what I suggested and that is a good solution.

 

[chapjim]

the main issue for me with dog weeks, is that they cost the same as prime weeks in terms of maintenance fees.

True for the maintenance/upkeep portion of the maintenance fee. Not true for housekeeping, utilities, etc.

 

[Tamaradarann]

I attended a yearly meeting at Mizner Place a couple of years ago, and asked about the large percentage of maintenance
fees being used for bad debt. They management and the board said if was partially caused a large number of military families that purchase and didn't continue to pay. I had sales staff admit that sales people don't do a very good job of investigating the ability to pay of purchasers and once they get their commission they didn't care if the loan and maintenance are paid.

I think it is interesting that the Vacation Village Management people are blaming military families for defaulting on their maintenance and sales staff for not investigating the ability of purchasers to pay.

- I don't think that military families are less financially reliable than anyone else and I resent the implication. The ones that I have dealt with are, if anything, more financial reliable.

- How would in the middle of a sales presentation the sales staff investigate the ability of purchasers to pay.

These comments are a look over there syndrome to give a reason why there are so many delinquencies rather than putting the blame on Vacation Village not having a Deedback Program so that owners can give back the unit they no longer need and want.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

How would in the middle of a sales presentation the sales staff investigate the ability of purchasers to pay

"Look. If they get rejected, I bleep at my job."

 

[Tamaradarann]

"Look. If they get rejected, I bleep at my job."

"Look. If they get rejected, I bleep at my job."

I have a cousin who worked in a bank dealing with loans, before the big financial crisis in 2008 and she told me about how the loan brokers were doing whatever had to be done to sell the loan and get the mortagage for the house. This was for actual whole property. Therefore, depending on the salesperson to verify credit before a sale is not happening.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

Usually you have to provide some basic financial information, or at least confirm that your income meets certain requirements before you can attend the presentation. They certainly run a credit report at some point in the process, prior to purchase closing.

I know when HGV acquired Diamond, one of the items discussed on investor call was that Diamond owners in general had lower credit scores than HGV owners. Presumably Diamond had been looser standards for extending credit. I am not familiar with Vacation Village, so can't comment on their programs.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Usually you have to provide some basic financial information, or at least confirm that your income meets certain requirements before you can attend the presentation. They certainly run a credit report at some point in the process, prior to purchase closing.

I know when HGV acquired Diamond, one of the items discussed on investor call was that Diamond owners in general had lower credit scores than HGV owners. Presumably Diamond had been looser standards for extending credit. I am not familiar with Vacation Village, so can't comment on their programs.

When we have gone to presentations, and we have attended many, they just ask if you have over say $50K in income. We have a credit freeze on our credit reports so even if they did check our credit it would not provide them with any information.

My concern with owners no longer paying their maintenance is focused on those who no longer need or want their timeshare not those who CAN'T pay their maintenance. Those are the people that should be able to get Deedbacks since they don't owe anything for a loan or mortgage. When you no longer need something you can usually just give it away or throw it away. Not having Deedbacks will cause people to just stop paying their maintenance since they not longer need or want the timeshare.

While I can sympathize with those that owe money for a loan or mortgage they fall into a different category with respect to their credit.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

When we have gone to presentations, and we have attended many, they just ask if you have over say $50K in income. We have a credit freeze on our credit reports so even if they did check our credit it would not provide them with any information.

My concern with owners no longer paying their maintenance is focused on those who no longer need or want their timeshare not those who CAN'T pay their maintenance. Those are the people that should be able to get Deedbacks since they don't owe anything for a loan or mortgage. When you no longer need something you can usually just give it away or throw it away. Not having Deedbacks will cause people to just stop paying their maintenance since they not longer need or want the timeshare.

While I can sympathize with those that owe money for a loan or mortgage they fall into a different category with respect to their credit.

That makes sense, and I agree there should be a deed back program for owners without a loan. It believe HGV does offer this, not sure how it works on all of their newly acquired brands, but I assume it will be implemented on all eventually if its not already.