Deedbacks Even for "Dog Weeks"!

[Tamaradarann]

Some people have made comments about companies not wanting to take back "Dog Weeks"(Silver, Bronze or maybe even Gold with high maintenance). Well looking at the big picture those weeks are hard for owners to sell on the resale market, therefore, owners of those weeks who want to stop paying their maintenance will just do that; stop paying their maintenance. The rest of the owners in that resort will need to pick up the cost of the owners who stop paying their maintenance which is not a good thing for the resorts maintenance fees. Eventually, the HOA or Timeshare Company will need to Foreclose on the property which costs money. Isn't it better to take back the "Dog Week" early and then to sell it at a very low price at a presentation when the higher cost units that are presented to attendees are turned down for costing too much money?

 

[HuskerATL]

Those are good points. It would be interesting to see how unsold and default units impact MFs. There is always transition and since HGV, the umbrella company, manages or owns most of the properties, then that cost may fall on them versus the specific property.

 

[GT75]

Isn't it better to take back the "Dog Week" early and then to sell it at a very low price at a presentation when the higher cost units that are presented to attendees are turned down for costing too much money?

I certainly agree with your statements but I haven't heard of HGV lowering their prices (retail price per point). I also don't understand why HGV doesn't operate in the resale market (say selling resale at $1 or $2/pt).

 

[alwysonvac]

Some people have made comments about companies not wanting to take back "Dog Weeks"(Silver, Bronze or maybe even Gold with high maintenance). Well looking at the big picture those weeks are hard for owners to sell on the resale market, therefore, owners of those weeks who want to stop paying their maintenance will just do that; stop paying their maintenance. The rest of the owners in that resort will need to pick up the cost of the owners who stop paying their maintenance which is not a good thing for the resorts maintenance fees. Eventually, the HOA or Timeshare Company will need to Foreclose on the property which costs money. Isn't it better to take back the "Dog Week" early and then to sell it at a very low price at a presentation when the higher cost units that are presented to attendees are turned down for costing too much money?

Why is this posted on the HGVC forum?
Did HGVC deny your request to take back your dog week?

 

[dioxide45]

I suspect the timeshare companies also have issues selling dog weeks. Plus they have to carry the maintenance fees on them until they can be resold. If they can't rent those doc weeks for a profit, they lose money on them until they can be flipped.

 

[TUGBrian]

dog/mud weeks have always been a problem without a good solution for sure!

 

[brp]

The most recent post in the Deedback thread appears to indicate a successful deedback for a Sliver dog

HGVC's Deed Back Process

I totally agree that they can do all of those things and make an owner who wants to get out of their timeshare jump through other hoops that you didn't think of but if there are too many hoops or they are too high and expensive owners will just stop paying maintenance so their Deed Back Program...

tugbbs.com

Cheers.

 

[Tamaradarann]

dog/mud weeks have always been a problem without a good solution for sure!

Why is this posted on the HGVC forum?
Did HGVC deny your request to take back your dog week?

I was going to make this post as a response to someone making a comment about "Dog Weeks" on the HGVC Forum concerning so many HGVC weeks on Redweek. The Thread was closed and I didn't know where to post it so I started this thread there.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Those are good points. It would be interesting to see how unsold and default units impact MFs. There is always transition and since HGV, the umbrella company, manages or owns most of the properties, then that cost may fall on them versus the specific property.

Well if in fact the cost falls on the "umbrella company" the "umbrella company" will pass that cost on to the maintenance of what the owners own. Points? Weeks?

 

[WaikikiFirst]

take back the "Dog Week" early and then to sell it at a very low price at a presentation when the higher cost units that are presented to attendees are turned down for costing too much money?

This "Dog Week" strategy, EOY in particular, is the core problem with the "TS Market". The backup of sellnig EOY 100% amazes me. They did it to me the only time I went. I was bewildered. I had told the lady "I have the $40,000, but total cost of ownership of $40,000 Entry Fee + thoes MFs means I pay $500 or more per night, when I can stay in a nice hotel for < $300/night." I made it crystal clear TCO = EF + MF & EF has a cost of capital, so TCO doesn't make any economic sense.
"I could maybe give you the EF and never pay a MF or I could pay the MFs with a tiny tiny EF (which is basically what resale is), but I ain't giving you both."
Crystal clear. Their response was to send in the EOY-Lady. Blew me away. Worse economics on TCO due to overhead costs being spread over fewer nights (pts).
Blew me away. I was almost speechless. All I could say was "but but but ... that is WORSE"

the core problem with the "TS Market" but as long as there's another one born every minute ...

 

[Tamaradarann]

dog/mud weeks have always been a problem without a good solution for sure!

I agree. However, when I look at the big picture which is the health of the Timeshare System I see a need to deal with the "dog/mud" weeks since they are part of the 52 week year. Of course some resorts could close down and, therefore, eliminate the problem and some of the cost of maintaining and selling of the "dog/mud" weeks. Also, as I previously suggested, perhaps the price of those weeks should be so low so that they are attractive for sale at presentations when the more sought after prime weeks are too expensive to make a sale to perspective buyers.

It is imperative in keeping the maintenance fees low that Timeshare Developers and HOAs do whatever they can to have maintenance paying owners. I just checked that about $250 of the maintenance of a week at a Vacation Village Resort that I own is do to delinquent maintenance. That is an amount worth paying attention to.

 

[HuskerATL]

Well if in fact the cost falls on the "umbrella company" the "umbrella company" will pass that cost on to the maintenance of what the owners own. Points? Weeks?

Paid by retail buyers. Point amounts don't change and HOAs determine the MFs.

 

[Tamaradarann]

This "Dog Week" strategy, EOY in particular, is the core problem with the "TS Market". The backup of sellnig EOY 100% amazes me. They did it to me the only time I went. I was bewildered. I had told the lady "I have the $40,000, but total cost of ownership of $40,000 Entry Fee + thoes MFs means I pay $500 or more per night, when I can stay in a nice hotel for < $300/night." I made it crystal clear TCO = EF + MF & EF has a cost of capital, so TCO doesn't make any economic sense.
"I could maybe give you the EF and never pay a MF or I could pay the MFs with a tiny tiny EF (which is basically what resale is), but I ain't giving you both."
Crystal clear. Their response was to send in the EOY-Lady. Blew me away. Worse economics on TCO due to overhead costs being spread over fewer nights (pts).
Blew me away. I was almost speechless. All I could say was "but but but ... that is WORSE"

the core problem with the "TS Market" but as long as there's another one born every minute ...

The EOY week stategy is totally different than the "Dog Week" issue. The EOY week strategy is just making the cost of the every year 1/2 but you get 1/2 of the benefit of every year, and you pay maintenance every other year.

However, the "Dog Week" is a week during a very low season of vacationing. Usually not summer, not snow bird season, not Holiday season, not ski season etc. That is why it is sometime called a "Mud Week or Dog Week". It usually has a somewhat lower cost and gets either a lower amount of points, or has a lower trading value. But it come with the same mainteance per week, therefore, ownership over an period of time has its disadvantages. My point is that pricing the initial price correctly, (much lower) will make it attractive to a buyer at a precentation when the "EOY-Lady" brings it into the presentation. Furthermore, if the Timeshare Company gets the week back via a free Deedback their cost of getting that inventory is zero so their pricing should be able to reflect that.

 

[TUGBrian]

the main issue for me with dog weeks, is that they cost the same as prime weeks in terms of maintenance fees.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Paid by retail buyers. Point amounts don't change and HOAs determine the MFs.

I was replying to your point about Umbrella Companies owning the resort rather than a specific property with an HOA that determines the MFs.

 

[pedro47]

Dog weeks are sold as getaway weeks and bonus weeks/time. Imho
Many, many years ago there were some dog weeks in April. Now those dog weeks are prime weeks.

 

[4TimeAway]

the main issue for me with dog weeks, is that they cost the same as prime weeks in terms of maintenance fees.

Some point structures address this.

The issue is value received vs. value paid for.

The game can always change to benefit those in control.

Pooled Points mean flat MFs.

 

[Tamaradarann]

the main issue for me with dog weeks, is that they cost the same as prime weeks in terms of maintenance fees.

I agree with you that it seems unfair for dog weeks that have less reservation power pay the same maintenance fees as prime weeks. However, the resort needs to be maintained for the entire year and if the dog weeks paid less then the prime weeks would have to pay more to pay for the maintenance services. That is why I am a big advocate for selling the Dog Deedback Weeks at a very low price.

When the resort is first built the developer needs to sell all the weeks at a certain price to pay off the loans for the cost of construction. Therefore, significantly lowering the price for the dog weeks would throw off the entire marketing plan for the development. However, when weeks are Deeded Back that is free inventory the developer can sell at any price they want which can make the dog week a good deal to buy even though the owner is paying the same maintenance as a prime week owner for less exchange value.

For instance if prime weeks are marketed for $20K the Deeded Back weeks could be marketed for say $10K. If the maintenance is $1000 per week but the exchange value is 1/2 for the dog weeks versus the prime week then lets say that the maintenance for the dog week is $500 too high. However, if the owner of the dog week only paid $10K for the week then it would be a good deal for many years until the initial $10K addtional cost of the prime week became worth the higher initial cost and a better deal.

 

[Reddart]

I’m pretty sure HGVC doesn’t differentiate between original and resale deed on their sales floor if they do a deedback. They will be sold the same, the dog weeks being the entry into the system with lower initial cost…with the hope they can upgrade the suckers later to a bigger deed (either better season or more rooms).

 

[Rdub79]

I believe this is why many companies are going to points trust. This is the set up DVC has successfully done. Instead of buying a week you now buy enough points for a specific week. So if the mud week only takes half the points to reserve you essentially pay half of the purchase price and half of the maintenance fee of a platinum week in order to use that mud week. This is a more fair way to do it but then it makes it harder for the more sophisticated people to game the system. Every time one of us wins with a great value exchange someone else is losing.

 

[elaine]

Yes-(not specific to HGVC, but in general) for points, less popular weeks have lower maintenance fees in point systems, as it costs less to stay. DVC in a low season studio might be 10 points while high season could be upwards of 20. Same with Marriott trust-HHI in summer will be much higher than January. The issues is with fixed weeks-and that's a big problem, esp for areas with a short season. Mid-Atlantic coastal are some--3 months high season, 2 months either side as shoulder (but a big drop down from high), then 4-5 months of very off-season. I'd expect even worse further north. I'd bet there default are fairly high for mud weeks-which means higher fees for others.

 

[dioxide45]

I agree with you that it seems unfair for dog weeks that have less reservation power pay the same maintenance fees as prime weeks. However, the resort needs to be maintained for the entire year and if the dog weeks paid less then the prime weeks would have to pay more to pay for the maintenance services. That is why I am a big advocate for selling the Dog Deedback Weeks at a very low price.

When the resort is first built the developer needs to sell all the weeks at a certain price to pay off the loans for the cost of construction. Therefore, significantly lowering the price for the dog weeks would throw off the entire marketing plan for the development. However, when weeks are Deeded Back that is free inventory the developer can sell at any price they want which can make the dog week a good deal to buy even though the owner is paying the same maintenance as a prime week owner for less exchange value.

For instance if prime weeks are marketed for $20K the Deeded Back weeks could be marketed for say $10K. If the maintenance is $1000 per week but the exchange value is 1/2 for the dog weeks versus the prime week then lets say that the maintenance for the dog week is $500 too high. However, if the owner of the dog week only paid $10K for the week then it would be a good deal for many years until the initial $10K addtional cost of the prime week became worth the higher initial cost and a better deal.

Dog weeks already sell for a lot less than prime weeks. That doesn’t help the HOA keep people paying the MFs.

 

[Tamaradarann]

I’m pretty sure HGVC doesn’t differentiate between original and resale deed on their sales floor if they do a deedback. They will be sold the same, the dog weeks being the entry into the system with lower initial cost…with the hope they can upgrade the suckers later to a bigger deed (either better season or more rooms).

I agree with you that HGVC doesn't differential between original and resale deeds on their sales floor. My thought is a response to statements about Dog Weeks being a problem and not being Deeded Back since they have low value. Since a Deeded Back week doesn't cost HGVC anything to obtain the inventory they COULD offer Dog Weeks at a very low price when perspective buyers at the presentation don't bite for the higher price weeks.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Dog weeks already sell for a lot less than prime weeks. That doesn’t help the HOA keep people paying the MFs.

I am not talking about secondary market sales I am talking about at Presentations. I have never bought a week other than Platinum on the secondary market. My point is that I don't think that HGVC sells the Dog Weeks at a low enough price to make them attractive at Presentations; and they can afford to deed them back and do that.

What helps the HOA's is maintenance fee paying owners. If Dog Week owners can't Deed Back the units they no longer want then they will default on their maintenance. It will be years of none paying maintenance until a Foreclosure and resale. Speeding the process up by Deeding Back Dog Weeks is a way to get the MFs paid again quicker.

 

[rjp123]

What helps the HOA's is maintenance fee paying owners. If Dog Week owners can't Deed Back the units they no longer want then they will default on their maintenance. It will be years of none paying maintenance until a Foreclosure and resale. Speeding the process up by Deeding Back Dog Weeks is a way to get the MFs paid again quicker.

The foreclosure process doesn't take years. If an owner falls behind on their loan or their maintenance fees, the foreclosure process can happen in a reasonable amount of time (after efforts are made to work with the owner to bring them back current).

Once it's been foreclosed the week goes back into the developer pool and HGV pays the maintenance fees until it is sold.

If you join your annual owners meeting, they will talk about the maintenance fees and what percent of owners are current. Unpaid fees are not a significant issue with most HGV resorts - and having a bunch of developer-owned weeks is actually a good thing because it guarantees payment.


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