"DC Trust and Legacy/Exchange Points are the same."

[Quilter]

There has been much discussion on this forum about the problems of combining DC trust points and legacy points. The problems center around the fact that they come from different 'buckets'; people have reported problems when trying to book a reservation that requires points from both. I asked a MVC rep several weeks ago if this was a problem, and he replied that they were the same now and would not create any problems. I asked him to put this in writing, and have not heard from him since then. I am very interested in purchasing MVC, especially from MVC ( legacy week plus buying DC points), but cannot until this is cleared up. I'm sure I can't be the only one in this boat. Why doesn't MVC clear this up by putting a statement that the points can be combined without any problems on their website?

[Note threads merged. <--- SueDonJ]

So far I haven't had any impact on the usage of my ownership that I can directly connect to reservations coming from a particular bucket. To clarify, I have made just a few points reservations.

I may be wrong but what I've gained from this thread is: 1) that currently the points are pretty much the same from the 12 month point, 2) sometimes they are the same from the 13 month point, 3) the governing documents hold the right to return to a division of points with the increase of more Trust owners put those demands on the system. Am I right? Did I miss anything?

Your post shows a hesitation to get into the MVC system because of an impact made by a division of points you perceive will directly relate to your use. I'd like to better understand the impact you perceive.

Can you explain more specifically how you see the division of points causing you trouble with your possible ownership?

 

[SueDonJ]

I guess I just don't see the complication.
Why cannot there be only one bucket?

X trust points = X inventory.
X legacy points = X legacy weeks


Start with a bucket full of trust inventory.
Every time a legacy member deposits his week, he gets DC points and the week goes into the same bucket.

EXAMPLE:
1,000,000 DC points (trust points)
400 DC weeks in bucket (trust weeks) = (2800 nights)

After a Legacy deposit:
1,002,500 DC points
401 DC weeks in bucket (2807 nights)

Anyone, at any time should be able to get any inventory from that one bucket, whether they own points from the trust or have received points from their deposit.

Think of the DC Trust as the "home resort" of DC Trust Members (those who have purchased Trust Points.) Those owners have rights to directly access any intervals which have been conveyed to the Trust, while both Trust and Exchange (Legacy) owners (those who have enrolled Weeks and have converted them to Points) have an equal right to intervals which are obtained through the DC Exchange Company.

Right now in the DC program's infancy there is a huge disparity between how many intervals have been conveyed and the number of DC Trust Points which have been sold, so Marriott has a lot of leeway to mingle many Trust-conveyed intervals in the Exchange Company for use by both Trust and Exchange Members. But when the time comes that enough DC Trust Points have been sold to correlate with a majority of the Weeks which have been conveyed to the Trust, Marriott won't have as much leeway to mingle inventory in the Exchange Company because they'll have to hold back Trust intervals in order to safeguard the Trust Members' usage rights. What we don't know, I don't think, is how long a period it is that Marriott has to comply with that safeguard for Trust Members, or exactly how Marriott is able to manipulate inventory when a Trust Member reserves Exchange Company intervals. With Weeks we know that Marriott doesn't have a right to claim unreserved owned Weeks until some point around 75 days prior to check-in. If/when we learn the terms of the safeguards for Trust intervals we'll have a better idea of how Marriott is able to mingle inventory.

So now to greatly simplify things based on your example (using figures pulled out of thin air here,) say the Trust consists of only 10 Maui Ocean Club 2BR OF Weeks which correlate to 20K DC Points (2,000 each.) Now say there are 10 DC Trust Members who each own 2,000 Trust Points. For some period of time it's assumed that those 10 Trust Members should have first rights to reserve those 10 specific conveyed Weeks. But if Marriott makes those 10 intervals available through the DC Exchange Company immediately upon their Reservation Windows opening, then Exchange (Legacy) Members would be able to reserve them on an equal basis thus negating whatever first usage rights the DC Trust Members should have to Trust inventory.

Again, right now it's not a problem with so much excess inventory (meaning not correlated to sold Trust Points) in the Trust - Marriott is able to and has been mingling a large number of Trust intervals in the Exchange Company. But eventually Marriott will have to be more strict about holding back Trust inventory for Trust Members' usage, depending on how much of a margin they manipulate between ongoing Trust conveyances and purchased Trust Points.

 

[Fasttr]

Think of the DC Trust as the "home resort" of DC Trust Members (those who have purchased Trust Points.) Those owners have rights to directly access any intervals which have been conveyed to the Trust, while both Trust and Exchange (Legacy) owners (those who have enrolled Weeks and have converted them to Points) have an equal right to intervals which are obtained through the DC Exchange Company.

Right now in the DC program's infancy there is a huge disparity between how many intervals have been conveyed and the number of DC Trust Points which have been sold, so Marriott has a lot of leeway to mingle many Trust-conveyed intervals in the Exchange Company for use by both Trust and Exchange Members. But when the time comes that enough DC Trust Points have been sold to correlate with a majority of the Weeks which have been conveyed to the Trust, Marriott won't have as much leeway to mingle inventory in the Exchange Company because they'll have to hold back Trust intervals in order to safeguard the Trust Members' usage rights. What we don't know, I don't think, is how long a period it is that Marriott has to comply with that safeguard for Trust Members, or exactly how Marriott is able to manipulate inventory when a Trust Member reserves Exchange Company intervals. With Weeks we know that Marriott doesn't have a right to claim unreserved owned Weeks until some point around 75 days prior to check-in. If/when we learn the terms of the safeguards for Trust intervals we'll have a better idea of how Marriott is able to mingle inventory.

So now to simplify things based on your example (using figures pulled out of thin air here,) say there are 10 Maui Ocean Club 2BR OF Weeks that have been conveyed to the Trust which correlate to 20K DC Points (2,000 each.) Now say there are 10 DC Trust Members who each own 2,000 Trust Points. For some period of time it's assumed that those 10 Trust Members should have first rights to reserve those 10 specific conveyed Weeks. But if Marriott makes those 10 intervals available through the DC Exchange Company immediately upon their Reservation Windows opening, then Exchange (Legacy) Members would be able to reserve them on an equal basis thus negating whatever first usage rights the DC Trust Members should have to Trust inventory.

Again, right now it's not a problem with so much excess inventory (meaning not correlated to sold Trust Points) in the Trust - Marriott is able to and has been mingling a large number of Trust intervals in the Exchange Company. But eventually Marriott will have to be more strict about holding back Trust inventory for Trust Members' usage, depending on how much of a margin they manipulate between ongoing Trust conveyances and purchased Trust Points.

Well said, but what really makes the whole thing work for everybody (and I am a pure Trust Point only owner, saying this) is the Enrolled weeks that the Legacy Point owners have tossed into the Exchange. Without those, a lot of what is purely in the Trust is unsold weeks in shoulder seasons, which is not a big draw (I realize there are some prime ressies in there too). Thankfully the Enrolled owners saw value in the less than full week reservations and other features of the plan as again, IMO, their deposits into the Exchange is what really is making the transition a success, is what is making it work for pure Trust point owners, and not to mention is making stockholders in the VAC happy people right now (at least on paper )

I for one Trust only owner, would be perfectly fine to have everything in one bucket!! You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

 

[SueDonJ]

Well said, but what really makes the whole thing work for everybody (and I am a pure Trust Point only owner, saying this) is the Enrolled weeks that the Legacy Point owners have tossed into the Exchange. Without those, a lot of what is purely in the trust is unsold weeks in shoulder seasons, which is not a big draw (I realize there are some prime ressies in there too). Thankfully the Enrolled owners saw value in the less than full week reservations and other features of the plan as again, IMO, their deposits into the Exchange is what really is making the transition a success, is what is making it work for pure Trust point owners, and not to mention is making stockholders in the VAC happy people right now (at least on paper )

I for one Trust only owner, would be perfectly fine to have everything in one bucket!! You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

I think most of us would like the simplicity of a one-bucket system, no doubt! But it took Marriott years to develop a Points system and I don't think they would have been granted approval from the states' agencies for a single-bucket integration of Points and existing Weeks, not with the timeshare laws being what they are. It appears Marriott's choices were either a Points system completely separate from the existing Weeks system, or what's in place now, a Points system in which the existing Weeks system can be integrated but only with a whole lot of inventory manipulation and machination that makes everything complicated.

 

[Fasttr]

I think most of us would like the simplicity of a one-bucket system, no doubt! But it took Marriott years to develop a Points system and I don't think they would have been granted approval from the states' agencies for a single-bucket integration of Points and existing Weeks, not with the timeshare laws being what they are. It appears Marriott's choices were either a Points system completely separate from the existing Weeks system, or what's in place now, a Points system in which the existing Weeks system can be integrated but only with a whole lot of inventory manipulation and machination that makes everything complicated.

For most of us in the DC (Trust and Legacy), however maddening it seems at times to figure it all out, it does seem to work nicely for most reservations. I guess we have to give them that!!!

 

[SueDonJ]

For most of us in the DC (Trust and Legacy), however maddening it seems at times to figure it all out, it does seem to work nicely for most reservations. I guess we have to give them that!!!

I completely agree. Marriott's new system isn't perfect but it's pretty darn good, and I'm one happy camper that they've managed to implement something that marries their extensive resort/hotel network with the flexibility inherent in a points product. And TUG's savvy Marriott owners have been such a valuable resource for figuring all the ins and outs.

 

[thinze3]

Marriott doesn't need to hold back anything for trust owners, now or in the future. There should be a total number units available that matches the total number of trust points owned, whether it's by Marriott or individuals. There will always be management issues, i.e. "All we have remaining are 4 nights here or 3 nights there." This happens in many businesses.

If a Legacy owner waits to long to reserve he would be in the same boat as the trust points owner doing the same. Marriott has the skim from Legacy owners and unused annual points from all owners to help with that.

And for that matter, if you offer trust members first right to reserve trust inventory, then shouldn't it work the same for Legacy owners, who ultimately are what make this whole system possible? On that premise shouldn't I be able to fork over my Waiohai to gain access to your Surfwatch before a trust member does? It is the Legacy members who broaden the scope of of the trust ownership immensely.

My answer to this is "NO". There should be one bucket for all.

 

[Fasttr]

Marriott doesn't need to hold back anything for trust owners, now or in the future. There should be a total number units available that matches the total number of trust points owned, whether it's by Marriott or individuals. There will always be management issues, i.e. "All we have remaining are 4 nights here or 3 nights there." This happens in many businesses.

If a Legacy owner waits to long to reserve he would be in the same boat as the trust points owner doing the same. Marriott has the skim from Legacy owners and unused annual points from all owners to help with that.

And for that matter, if you offer trust members first right to reserve trust inventory, then shouldn't it work the same for Legacy owners, who ultimately are what make this whole system possible? On that premise shouldn't I be able to fork over my Waiohai to gain access to your Surfwatch before a trust member does? It is the Legacy members who broaden the scope of of the trust ownership immensely.

My answer to this is "NO". There should be one bucket for all.

I think we all need to purchase points in the Thinze3 Vacation Club!!

 

[SueDonJ]

Marriott doesn't need to hold back anything for trust owners, now or in the future. There should be a total number units available that matches the total number of trust points owned, whether it's by Marriott or individuals. There will always be management issues, i.e. "All we have remaining are 4 nights here or 3 nights there." This happens in many businesses.

If a Legacy owner waits to long to reserve he would be in the same boat as the trust points owner doing the same. Marriott has the skim from Legacy owners and unused annual points from all owners to help with that.

And for that matter, if you offer trust members first right to reserve trust inventory, then shouldn't it work the same for Legacy owners, who ultimately are what make this whole system possible? On that premise shouldn't I be able to fork over my Waiohai to gain access to your Surfwatch before a trust member does? It is the Legacy members who broaden the scope of of the trust ownership immensely.

My answer to this is "NO". There should be one bucket for all.

About the first sentence that I bolded - isn't that almost the same thing as saying for all these years during which Marriott timeshares have been in existence, "Marriott doesn't need to hold back any Weeks inventory for Weeks Owners, now or in the future?" Of course they've had to, and now for Trust Members, too! Owners/Members have to have first rights to what they own - that's the main premise of every timeshare law ever enacted! That's why one of the governing docs of the MVC Destination Club must be the Disclosure Guide, that stipulates which intervals have been conveyed to the Trust up to and at the time of enrollment/purchase.

As much as it would make things simpler for us if there weren't all these buckets and rules, I really don't think that any of us want Marriott to have free noncompliant reign to manipulate inventory in whatever ways are easiest for us. IMO wanting that's a classic case of "be careful what you wish for," because there would be nothing to stop Marriott from taking full advantage to further their own ends and not ours!

 

[thinze3]

.... and I'm one happy camper ....

I'll bet you are. Most weeks owners that joined the DC weren't as lucky as you. Not many had weeks worth 5-6000 points each with MF's at $.20 per point. Darn the luck.

 

[thinze3]

About the first sentence that I bolded - isn't that almost the same thing as saying for all these years during which Marriott timeshares have been in existence, "Marriott doesn't need to hold back any Weeks inventory for Weeks Owners, now or in the future?" Of course they've had to, and now for Trust Members, too! Owners/Members have to have first rights to what they own - that's the main premise of every timeshare law ever enacted! That's why one of the governing docs of the MVC Destination Club must be the Disclosure Guide, that stipulates which intervals have been conveyed to the Trust up to and at the time of enrollment/purchase.

As much as it would make things simpler for us if there weren't all these buckets and rules, I really don't think that any of us want Marriott to have free noncompliant reign to manipulate inventory in whatever ways are easiest for us. IMO wanting that's a classic case of "be careful what you wish for," because there would be nothing to stop Marriott from taking full advantage to further their own ends and not ours!

You have to read past the first sentence to understand the simplicity. Of course you have to have the same number of weeks available as is owned in the trust AND deposited from Legacy owners, nothing more and nothing less. You have one unit you sell 52 weeks - or 52 X 2500 points. There is no inventory to hold back.

 

[SueDonJ]

You have to read past the first sentence to understand the simplicity. Of course you have to have the same number of weeks available as is owned in the trust AND deposited from Legacy owners, nothing more and nothing less. You have one unit you sell 52 weeks - or 52 X 2500 points. There is no inventory to hold back.

But Trust Members' ownership consists of interests in a real estate Trust, which Trust consists of specific inventory. A separate component of the MVC Destination Club is the Affiliate Agreement between the Trust and the DC Exchange Company, which also gives Trust Members access to the EC inventory. But according to the set-up as mandated by the governing docs, the affiliate agreement can be severed. So what happens upon such a severance if the Trust inventory isn't kept separate from the EC inventory?

That's why I think that Marriott is doing a good job with mingling inventory. Because despite being constrained by the Trust Members' ownership rights they're still managing to make it appear almost seamless for both Trust and Exchange Members to successfully reserve almost all intervals.

 

[lizap]

This is one of the best comments I've seen on this thread.

I guess I just don't see the complication.
Why cannot there be only one bucket?

X trust points = X inventory.
X legacy points = X legacy weeks


Start with a bucket full of trust inventory.
Every time a legacy member deposits his week, he gets DC points and the week goes into the same bucket.

EXAMPLE:
1,000,000 DC points (trust points)
400 DC weeks in bucket (trust weeks) = (2800 nights)

After a Legacy deposit:
1,002,500 DC points
401 DC weeks in bucket (2807 nights)

Anyone, at any time should be able to get any inventory from that one bucket, whether they own points from the trust or have received points from their deposit.

 

[gblotter]

We just attended a sales presentation on Friday at Timber Lodge.

The salesman insisted that owning trust points would "supercharge" our reservation power. He admitted that MVW would be angry at him for saying that. He claimed that he can easily demonstrate online how owning trust points will reveal reservations that do not show up with just legacy points.

I responded that I have always been able to get the reservations I want using legacy points.

I also mentioned that I was disappointed with the "bottom of the barrel" room assignments given to DC points reservations. He was completely uninterested in having a discussion on that topic.

 

[dioxide45]

We just attended a sales presentation on Friday at Timber Lodge.

The salesman insisted that owning trust points would "supercharge" our reservation power. He admitted that MVW would be angry at him for saying that. He claimed that he can easily demonstrate online how owning trust points will reveal reservations that do not show up with just legacy points.

So did you ask him to demonstrate?

 

[Fasttr]

We just attended a sales presentation on Friday at Timber Lodge.

The salesman insisted that owning trust points would "supercharge" our reservation power. He admitted that MVW would be angry at him for saying that. He claimed that he can easily demonstrate online how owning trust points will reveal reservations that do not show up with just legacy points.

From what GregT has proven with multiple tests (and a few others of us have experienced on occasion where a reservation at 13 months could only be gotten with Trust points) the sales geek's claim that he could show you is technically correct....he probably could show you. From there he is trying to play a Jedi mind trick on you, hoping you will think that by owning some Trust points, all of your points (Legacy and Trust) will presto/chango have Trust point power. IMO, it doesn't work that way (as I have tried to use Legacy and Trust points to book a Trust only room and it didn't work). So the only points that would be able to book those rare instances that you can only use Trust points.... is Trust Points. So if you have 3000 Legacy points and 1500 Trust points, unless that Trust only ressie can be booked for your 1500 Trust points, you are still not going to get it. Again....IMO.

 

[GregT]

From what GregT has proven with multiple tests (and a few others of us have experienced on occasion where a reservation at 13 months could only be gotten with Trust points) the sales geek's claim that he could show you is technically correct....he probably could show you. From there he is trying to play a Jedi mind trick on you, hoping you will think that by owning some Trust points, all of your points (Legacy and Trust) will presto/chango have Trust point power. IMO, it doesn't work that way (as I have tried to use Legacy and Trust points to book a Trust only room and it didn't work). So the only points that would be able to book those rare instances that you can only use Trust points.... is Trust Points. So if you have 3000 Legacy points and 1500 Trust points, unless that Trust only ressie can be booked for your 1500 Trust points, you are still not going to get it. Again....IMO.

I agree completely with Fasttr's post -- I have no doubt the sales rep could show space that requires Trust Points, but booking it with Legacy Points is a different matter.

I do not believe Trust Points will supercharge your Legacy Points (and was told this also at Timber Lodge). It is a Jedi mind trick. These are not the droids you are looking for. I do believe Trust Points (in quantity) can be superior to Legacy Points for a few specific reservations, but Trust Points as an add-on to Legacy Points have not demonstrated any preferential access for confirming reservations.

I would be very interested if we could find examples of how to make that happen.

Best,

Greg

 

[gblotter]

So did you ask him to demonstrate?

No.

My desire for an early exit was stronger than my curiosity to see the demonstration.

 

[dioxide45]

No.

My desire for an early exit was stronger than my curiosity to see the demonstration.

I understand, I would do the same thing.