Creating a liquid timeshare resale market

[Beefnot]

I wonder what "due process for owners" means in that article. Deedback conditions?

 

[strandlover]

The idea that most timeshare buyers bought in because of the RCI trade system is ludicrous. Basing the current situation with blue / dog times and mostly seasonal demand on any exchange company actions is just wrong. They certainly haven't helped but are far from the main source of the issue.

If that is the base for other assumptions then all the "facts" are tainted.

From my own personal experience, I agree. It's only after I was unable to use a week either myself or being unable to rent it, that I "found" RCI. RCI serves a purpose, is an outlet, and not my #1 go-to. They offer a service to me when I need it, I push weeks to them, they don't yank them out of my hands.

RCI states it very clear (paraphrasing): Once a week is ceded, they do what they want with it. If we don't like it, choose another option.

There is hope for blue weeks, but harder and more creative work is needed. There has to be a trough created big enough that would make blue weeks needed. There is a lesson to be learned from over-developed areas such as Orlando: there is something always going on in that town and hence the need for weeks all year round.

 

[richardm]

I think Shep is making a mistake with this...

I was on the ARDA website last night reading their Magazine ..It seems TimeSharing Today is assisting HOA board members to put together an association to address common problems and share solutions and perhaps.

Here in a few paragraphs the author has summed up the issues they face

not much different than what we have been discussing

I have great respect for Shep, but I'm afraid this might be become a negative for individual owners.. At the last ARDA event in Orlando- the consensus among resort managers (with the notable exception of John Lee, CFO for Christie Lodge) was that the strategy to deter Viking Ship abandonment was to create more hurdles and cost for the ownership transfer process..

We can already see the results of this flawed thinking in the "prepaid" maintenance fee requirement for transfers at Spinnaker, and in the increased transfer fees and estoppels fees being created throughout the industry.

These cost increases do absolutely nothing to the Viking Ship companies. They simply pass those increased costs on to the individual timeshare owner who so desperately wants out.. All the prepaid fees will do is delay the inevitable- the HOA will still end up foreclosing on a large number of these units, it will just happen two years later.

My worry is that increased "communication" between resort managers will only lead to the increased distribution of these bad ideas..

 

[strandlover]

We need a points type system that makes fees reflect true value and for resorts with blue time ro make their own weeks desirable not feed off better resorts with unfair trade ups. And despite cries they aren't they are lndeed major trade ups.

The genie is out of the bottle at many resorts and creating a points based solution may be difficult to implement.

How about offering blue week owners a dividend, disproportionately higher than for red weeks? This dividend will come from a suprlus pool (whenever that happens) and the dividend will be applied as a credit to next year's MFs.

Imagine? A resale value of a blue week could be higher than a red week, based on dividend payout history.

 

[ampaholic]

From my own personal experience, I agree. It's only after I was unable to use a week either myself or being unable to rent it, that I "found" RCI. RCI serves a purpose, is an outlet, and not my #1 go-to. They offer a service to me when I need it, I push weeks to them, they don't yank them out of my hands.

RCI states it very clear (paraphrasing): Once a week is ceded, they do what they want with it. If we don't like it, choose another option.

There is hope for blue weeks, but harder and more creative work is needed. There has to be a trough created big enough that would make blue weeks needed. There is a lesson to be learned from over-developed areas such as Orlando: there is something always going on in that town and hence the need for weeks all year round.

Points systems provide hope for blue weeks - because when you own points you can use them to access blue, white and even red weeks.

Points does change the "shopping" paradigm and can actually make a well run resort (low fees, few special assessments) more attractive and poorly run (expensive fees, Point at Poipou type assessments) less attractive. The exact location and view recedes into the background during the shopping.

So in that sense RCI (their Points anyway) does impact decisions re: purchasing perhaps more than they used to - so what? Once the razzel dazzel and flim flam of the developer sales weasels is out of play as in the resale market decisions should become more about ongoing costs not purchase costs.

Carolinian et al say own to use week owners won't play along with any liquidity plans because they "don't need it" - I think everybody benefits from a workable exit plan even own to use owners because "a rising tide floats all boats" -- a vibrant market improves all units saleability.

But that's just me.

 

[ronparise]

I have great respect for Shep, but I'm afraid this might be become a negative for individual owners.. At the last ARDA event in Orlando- the consensus among resort managers (with the notable exception of John Lee, CFO for Christie Lodge) was that the strategy to deter Viking Ship abandonment was to create more hurdles and cost for the ownership transfer process..

We can already see the results of this flawed thinking in the "prepaid" maintenance fee requirement for transfers at Spinnaker, and in the increased transfer fees and estoppels fees being created throughout the industry.

These cost increases do absolutely nothing to the Viking Ship companies. They simply pass those increased costs on to the individual timeshare owner who so desperately wants out.. All the prepaid fees will do is delay the inevitable- the HOA will still end up foreclosing on a large number of these units, it will just happen two years later.

My worry is that increased "communication" between resort managers will only lead to the increased distribution of these bad ideas..

Ive wondered about those high fees. It seems to me that they are designed to lock someone into an ownership they want out of by making a sale (or give away) more difficult. When what they should be doing is making sales easier.


I know of condo associations that have a first right of refusal. Unless it would require a super majority vote, there is no reason this couldnt be added to the timeshare's hoa rules...Wouldnt this save time and get an interval into the hand of the association quickly, ...They're goning to get it anyway after the time and expense to foreclose...why not do it now

 

[e.bram]

Carolinian is right, prime red owners will play along with the points concept. This will give the points holders' a choice of dog weeks. This dog week exchange could easily accomplished with internal weeks jexchange within the TS.

ps. Ask an RCI promoter salesman how many PRIME weeks the points program has any given highly seasonal units in the TSes they tout.

 

[ronparise]

Carolinian is right, prime red owners will play along with the points concept. This will give the points holders' a choice of dog weeks. This dog week exchange could easily accomplished with internal weeks jexchange within the TS.

ps. Ask an RCI promoter salesman how many PRIME weeks the points program has any given highly seasonal units in the TSes they tout.

of course he is right...but who cares, no one is asking a prime week owner to play along with anyone.. There are enough prime week owners that want to sell to build the trust proposed

 

[e.bram]

I have looking for a prime oceanfront w kitchen TS (driving distance from NYC)in the Cape Cod and RI for about 10 yrs. I bought one about 6 yrs ago and haven't seen any since and am still looking. I also have a spring break Easter week same unit.
Many doggies are available.
Why do think Ride bought in Williamsburg?

ps. I am talking oceanfront resort and oceanfront unit.

 

[ampaholic]

Ive wondered about those high fees. It seems to me that they are designed to lock someone into an ownership they want out of by making a sale (or give away) more difficult. When what they should be doing is making sales easier.

The "Transfer Fees Shenanigans" only add to the problem, they dry up what liquidity there is like a sponge. I am sure the sales of Spinnaker units has dried up to some degree.

of course he is right...but who cares, no one is asking a prime week owner to play along with anyone.. There are enough prime week owners that want to sell to build the trust proposed

Actually there might even be the occasional white and blue week owners who won't want to play along and liquidate into the Trust. Who knows they might have heirs who want the timeshare?

 

[Carolinian]

TST did NOT promote increasing transfer fees and the like. They did have an article promoting a much better approach - suing the PCC's and the those who use them for fraudulent conveyance. Of course, they need to pick their defendants, to get ones that are solvent, then lower the boom on them, and display the bloody shirt for anyone else tempted to go that route.

HOA's need to be reasonable and accomodating with those in financial distress, but when it comes to out and out deadbeats cutting and running, that is another matter.

And there is one area where an association of smaller member-run HOA's could have a big impact, and that is dealing as a group with RCI over the way they are being treated on trading power. If such a group simply told RCI that unless they started getting fair treatment on trading power, holding up VV@P as an ecample on the other side, then they were going to defect enmass to II and send out press releases as to why. I think that might just get RCI's attention. ''Sold out resort'' has had a sinister double meaning at RCI for far too long.

One other group that Shep has helped create that has been needed and relates to the subject here is the association of ethical resellers who do not charge upfront fees and who are properly licensed as real estate brokers. This is what is really needed to build a resale market, not the fairy tale some in this thread are writing. Good solid local timeshare resale brokers are the key to a better secondary market not a fantasy Flying Dutchman trust!

I have great respect for Shep, but I'm afraid this might be become a negative for individual owners.. At the last ARDA event in Orlando- the consensus among resort managers (with the notable exception of John Lee, CFO for Christie Lodge) was that the strategy to deter Viking Ship abandonment was to create more hurdles and cost for the ownership transfer process..

We can already see the results of this flawed thinking in the "prepaid" maintenance fee requirement for transfers at Spinnaker, and in the increased transfer fees and estoppels fees being created throughout the industry.

These cost increases do absolutely nothing to the Viking Ship companies. They simply pass those increased costs on to the individual timeshare owner who so desperately wants out.. All the prepaid fees will do is delay the inevitable- the HOA will still end up foreclosing on a large number of these units, it will just happen two years later.

My worry is that increased "communication" between resort managers will only lead to the increased distribution of these bad ideas..

 

[Carolinian]

You are spot on as to that type of week. At the resort where I was on the HOA BOD, most of our summer weeks were still owned by the same famiilies that originally bought them from the developer. When they changed hands, it was almost always within the family. The Cape and the OBX seem to be similar in that regard. Some of the overbuilt areas may be different.

I have looking for a prime oceanfront w kitchen TS (driving distance from NYC)in the Cape Cod and RI for about 10 yrs. I bought one about 6 yrs ago and haven't seen any since and am still looking. I also have a spring break Easter week same unit.
Many doggies are available.
Why do think Ride bought in Williamsburg?

ps. I am talking oceanfront resort and oceanfront unit.

 

[Carolinian]

That may be the case at the seasonal resorts but not at non-seasonal ones. Thats why the resorts - not the exchange companies /other resorts - need to fix the cost vs value equation. Points and/or resort improvements to make off season times more attractive are the answer not undeserved third party upgrades at other owners expense and value loss.

EVERY resort is seasonal with some weeks having a significantly different supply / demand curve than others. The impact may have some differences. There are areas of low supply and very high demant, where even the worst weeks have more demand than there is supply. London is a good example of that. St. John, USVI is another. Then there are the overbuilt areas, where most of the year, including the best weeks, there is excess supply and in lower seasons a large excess of supply. The intrinsic value of a timeshare to an exchange system, and also for market value, is the relationship between supply and demand. If a week trades for another with a similar supply / demand curve, then that is an even trade, no matter what color cide an exchange company gives it.

 

[ampaholic]

You are spot on as to that type of week. At the resort where I was on the HOA BOD, most of our summer weeks were still owned by the same famiilies that originally bought them from the developer. When they changed hands, it was almost always within the family. The Cape and the OBX seem to be similar in that regard. Some of the overbuilt areas may be different.

If you say the same thing over and over (and over and over) enough it becomes hypnotic and I am in a trance now - lead me master.........:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

 

[e.bram]

Calolinian:
But these weeks based highly seasonal TSes are the ones having the problem.
Where people want to drive to the TS have a kitchen, to avoid transportation and eating out costs which today can be so high as to make the accommodation costs trivial.
Points, Innseason ,RCI won't solve the problem. Only suck some more money from dog week owners.
I can get an II Getaway for 1/3 rd the MFs.

 

[BocaBum99]

of course he is right...but who cares, no one is asking a prime week owner to play along with anyone.. There are enough prime week owners that want to sell to build the trust proposed

Ron,

There is something here. If you want to start the business let me know. I'll be in Tampa and Orlando in May. I have some ideas for how it could work and make a ton of money.

Jim

 

[ampaholic]

....snip...

Worldmark maintains it's liquidity - it is an example of how to maintain liquidity. So it stands to reason that the more other timeshares "capture" the sucessful aspects of Worldmark the more liquid their markets will become.


The trust moves the weeks in it towards a "more Worldmark like" situation - no need to reinvent the wheel.

Now I'll be the first to agree that Wyndham shenanigans are hurting WM liquidity - but that is for another thread.

 

[BocaBum99]

If you say the same thing over and over (and over and over) enough it becomes hypnotic and I am in a trance now - lead me master.........:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

Carolinian is that last Japanese warrior still fighting World War II. It's not worth debating him because you don't learn anything new from the engagement and he will make the same points over and over even if they make no sense with respect to the context of the conversation.

RCI had more to do with the Japanese Tsunami than it did with the liquidity problem in the timeshare resale market.

 

[BocaBum99]

Worldmark maintains it's liquidity - it is an example of how to maintain liquidity. So it stands to reason that the more other timeshares "capture" the sucessful aspects of Worldmark the more liquid their markets will become.


The trust moves the weeks in it towards a "more Worldmark like" situation - no need to reinvent the wheel.

Now I'll be the first to agree that Wyndham shenanigans are hurting WM liquidity - but that is for another thread.

Someone said it right about 7 years ago. At that time, they said that timeshares should be tradable like Pokemon cards. That is exactly right. Now that I have more experience, it can be done if you use a Trust. WorldMark is the best example of how to do it. Even it has problems, though.

 

[BocaBum99]

I have great respect for Shep, but I'm afraid this might be become a negative for individual owners.. At the last ARDA event in Orlando- the consensus among resort managers (with the notable exception of John Lee, CFO for Christie Lodge) was that the strategy to deter Viking Ship abandonment was to create more hurdles and cost for the ownership transfer process..

We can already see the results of this flawed thinking in the "prepaid" maintenance fee requirement for transfers at Spinnaker, and in the increased transfer fees and estoppels fees being created throughout the industry.

These cost increases do absolutely nothing to the Viking Ship companies. They simply pass those increased costs on to the individual timeshare owner who so desperately wants out.. All the prepaid fees will do is delay the inevitable- the HOA will still end up foreclosing on a large number of these units, it will just happen two years later.

My worry is that increased "communication" between resort managers will only lead to the increased distribution of these bad ideas..

It's funny that ARDA and the Resort Developers are attempting to solve the problem by making it harder to do transfers. That makes timeshares even more non liquid. They are doing it because they want to maintain the status quo of the lifetime sentence of a timeshare purchase.

If they go too far, it could result in the opposite thing happening which is the government jumping in to break the developer cartel over the resale market via anti trust. If developers in power act to restrain trade, that violates the Sherman Anti-Trust act. How can anyone doubt that such moves do not inhibit trade?

 

[AwayWeGo]

Harder To Do Transfers = Push-Back Against Resales.

ARDA and the Resort Developers are attempting to solve the problem by making it harder to do transfers.

Good Reason = Trying to solve the liquidity problem.

Real Reason = Creating barriers against resales as a way of promoting full-freight sales.

Shux upon'm.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ronparise]

It's funny that ARDA and the Resort Developers are attempting to solve the problem by making it harder to do transfers. That makes timeshares even more non liquid. They are doing it because they want to maintain the status quo of the lifetime sentence of a timeshare purchase.

If they go too far, it could result in the opposite thing happening which is the government jumping in to break the developer cartel over the resale market via anti trust. If developers in power act to restrain trade, that violates the Sherman Anti-Trust act. How can anyone doubt that such moves do not inhibit trade?

I was up half the night reading Ardas magazine..I dont think its them promoting high transfer fees. There are just too many articles there that call for an exit strategy, or education or something other than high transfer fees. Its the misguided attempts of the HOAs themselves. One does it and the others follow suit...It looks good on paper, but the unintended consequences are ...well..uinintended

 

[ampaholic]

..snip... Its the misguided attempts of the HOAs themselves. One does it and the others follow suit...It looks good on paper, but the unintended consequences are ...well..uinintended

I agree it's the HOA's.

When someone drinks and drives it will be argued by some that the fatal crash was an unintended consequence. I think the timeshare industry needs grown ups that take the keys from their drunk friends not enablers.

Grown ups - don't support the "liquor sellers" at their presentations.
Grown ups - speak up to the HOA and say "anything that wrecks an owners right to liquidate their property is morally wrong".
Grown ups - pay their obligations
Grown ups - consider "ethical" entrance and exit strategies

 

[ronparise]

I have looking for a prime oceanfront w kitchen TS (driving distance from NYC)in the Cape Cod and RI for about 10 yrs. I bought one about 6 yrs ago and haven't seen any since and am still looking. I also have a spring break Easter week same unit.
Many doggies are available.
Why do think Ride bought in Williamsburg?

ps. I am talking oceanfront resort and oceanfront unit.

And Ride is talking about prime weeks too ...its just thats whats important to him is different than whats important to you. or me... I happen to think that my 1950's vintage, studio in the Garden District of New Orleans, week 9, the Mardi Gras event week, is prime stuff. But really, the only definition of Prime here has to do with the ratio of TPU or Points it generates. to the dollars mf it costs

 

[timeos2]

It's even unconstitutional

For those that think the Government could step in and force HOA's / Owners to accept deeds they don't want perhaps this quote from the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution will change your mind:

“the power to regulate commerce does not include the power to compel a party to take title to goods or services against its will.”

So unless you think the problems of blue week timeshares having low to no value will lead to a constitutional change I think we can put that possibility to rest once and for all.