Creating a liquid timeshare resale market

[timeos2]

Giving blue time undeserved value at the expense of other, far more demanded times at non-seasonal (or at least far less seasonal) resorts only helps the blue owners. It does nothing but hurt the otherwise better off non-blue owners. It is no solution. It didn't work before and wouldn't work now.

We need a points type system that makes fees reflect true value and for resorts with blue time ro make their own weeks desirable not feed off better resorts with unfair trade ups. And despite cries they aren't they are lndeed major trade ups.

 

[Beefnot]

The one part of the resale market that went considerably downhill BEFORE the economic crisis, and it is a tiny niche, is eBay. That part was not so much driven by changes at RCI but by the PCC's flooding that market, which I am sure was deliberately part of their business plan. Those who want to see the PCC's as an effect of the problem have got it backwards, as the PCC's are a big cause of the problem, at least as it pertains to the eBay fragment of the market. As one who was feeding HOA inventory through eBay, I had a front row seat to watch that happen.

Some people have two sides of their neck, you have at least three. I can't keep up with your conflicting, obfuscating logic. I could argue causality vs. correlation, but that is simply a waste of time. Calling you out on your yaddayadda only serves to strengthen your resolve to write more and more fluff.

 

[Carolinian]

Oh I didn't realize that once you've served on an HOA board, you no longer have a personal opinion. It is now called...expert analysis? Where I come from, I can throw a million facts out, but how I construe those facts is at the end of the day called personal opinion. Thanks for educating me. Appreciate it.

What such experience gives you is a knowledge of the facts, instead of mere speculation.

 

[Carolinian]

RCI never gave blue time undeserved values.

Yes, they got some nominally red time in overbuilt areas, but those weeks should never have been red in the first place if supply and demand were the criteria. Even now, in the current system, those overbuilt areas can be had for either a cheap rental or very low points lite. They aren't worth much now and weren't worth much then. The blue week owner only got the illusion he was trading up, but that kept them in the game.

The other aspect was the 45 day window, where again there was not a ''trade up'' since short shelf life inventory is devalued inventory in the leisure travel market. If its use by date passes, it has no more value at all. It is sort of like the bargains that can be had on last minute cruises or package holidays. When someone makes a last minute deposit, their trade value is severely reduced, so it only makes common sense that when you exchange for one of those weeks, the same concept applies of reduced value.

The real trades ups that happen today in the current system are primarily in some of the overbuilt areas where RCI will give a lot more points lite for a deposit that they charge to trade in to the very same week at the same point in time. Points Lite, in fact, has more trades up than the old Weeks system ever did. At the same time, it has people getting hosed by getting fewer points lite for a deposit of a rare, hard to get area, than RCI is charging at the very same time for a trade into the very same week. Values changing over time make common sense in the market, but having different values at the same point in time depending on whether the week is going in or coming out certainly do not.

Giving blue time undeserved value at the expense of other, far more demanded times at non-seasonal (or at least far less seasonal) resorts only helps the blue owners. It does nothing but hurt the otherwise better off non-blue owners. It is no solution. It didn't work before and wouldn't work now.

We need a points type system that makes fees reflect true value and for resorts with blue time ro make their own weeks desirable not feed off better resorts with unfair trade ups. And despite cries they aren't they are lndeed major trade ups.

 

[Carolinian]

Some people have two sides of their neck, you have at least three. I can't keep up with your conflicting, obfuscating logic. I could argue causality vs. correlation, but that is simply a waste of time. Calling you out on your yaddayadda only serves to strengthen your resolve to write more and more fluff.

Calling you out on your shoot-from-the-hip speculation and lack of knowledge only makes you attack more. And from your picture, I cannot see that you have any neck at all.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Giving blue time undeserved value at the expense of other, far more demanded times at non-seasonal (or at least far less seasonal) resorts only helps the blue owners. It does nothing but hurt the otherwise better off non-blue owners. It is no solution. It didn't work before and wouldn't work now.

We need a points type system that makes fees reflect true value and for resorts with blue time ro make their own weeks desirable not feed off better resorts with unfair trade ups. And despite cries they aren't they are lndeed major trade ups.

Haven't Red weeks been feeding off the Blue and White weeks since modern Timesharing Began? When you pay the Same MF's for a July 4th week on the beach as i pay for a October week on the Beach, you've got to admit...there is something screwy going on

 

[Beefnot]

What such experience gives you is a knowledge of the facts, instead of mere speculation.

Knowledge of facts means what? Nothing? It just means knowledge of facts. How you string facts together can be called analysis, opinion, and even speculation. Your assessment of factual changes in RCI is no more or less valid than my assessm--, I'm sorry, speculations. But since the economy tanked, now you have a correlation to hang your hat on as causality. Which is laughable.

 

[ronparise]

Haven't Red weeks been feeding off the Blue and White weeks since modern Timesharing Began? When you pay the Same MF's for a July 4th week on the beach as i pay for a October week on the Beach, you've got to admit...there is something screwy going on

Yes...

Systems like Worldmark and the new Club Wyndham Acces dont have the problem because they sell credits or points not a week or a resort...I can do whatever I want with them..spend more for the better weeks and resorts. less for the others...Dont get me wrong there are still problems, but the problem of blue week owners subsidizing red week owners does not exist..

 

[Beefnot]

Yes...

Systems like Worldmark and the new Club Wyndham Acces dont have the problem because they sell credits or points not a week or a resort...I can do whatever I want with them..spend more for the better weeks and resorts. lass fo the others...Dont get me wrong there are still problems, but the problem of blue week owners subsidizing red week owners does not exist..

Ron's back! After getting sidetracked with the whole RCI-is-the-problem garbage, let's get back to perfecting a solution.

 

[timeos2]

Haven't Red weeks been feeding off the Blue and White weeks since modern Timesharing Began? When you pay the Same MF's for a July 4th week on the beach as i pay for a October week on the Beach, you've got to admit...there is something screwy going on

That may be the case at the seasonal resorts but not at non-seasonal ones. Thats why the resorts - not the exchange companies /other resorts - need to fix the cost vs value equation. Points and/or resort improvements to make off season times more attractive are the answer not undeserved third party upgrades at other owners expense and value loss.

 

[ronparise]

Knowledge of facts means what? Nothing? It just means knowledge of facts. How you string facts together can be called analysis, opinion, and even speculation. Your assessment of factual changes in RCI is no more or less valid than my assessm--, I'm sorry, speculations. But since the economy tanked, now you have a correlation to hang your hat on as causality. Which is laughable.

Im reminded of the guy that is sitting on a park bench reading a newspaper. When he finishes a page he tears that page in strips and scatters them all around his bench.....A passerby asked him "What are you doing? his answer ..."It keeps away the elephants"... "But sir there are no elephants in the park"

"see it works"

fact: the guy was tearing up newspapers
fact: there are no elephants in the park
but also a fact..there is no connection between them


Carolinian has more facts than anyone here and more opinions...its just that they are often not connected except in his head

 

[am1]

Haven't Red weeks been feeding off the Blue and White weeks since modern Timesharing Began? When you pay the Same MF's for a July 4th week on the beach as i pay for a October week on the Beach, you've got to admit...there is something screwy going on

When they bought that is something that they should of considered. I am sure they paid a lot lower purchase price for 1/52 of the condo.

It all comes down to education, what makes the developers the most money and a fair ext strategy for owners who want out no matter the reason.

 

[Beefnot]

That may be the case at the seasonal resorts but not at non-seasonal ones. Thats why the resorts - not the exchange companies /other resorts - need to fix the cost vs value equation. Points and/or resort improvements to make off season times more attractive are the answer not undeserved third party upgrades at other owners expense and value loss.

I don't disagree with what you're saying here. However, I don't believe compulsion through regulation is practical or even legal. So if the HOAs cannot be compelled to do so, how do thousands of independent HOAs arrive at a similar conclusion? ARDA? I don't know.

PCCs, just like this vacation trust idea, step in to add lubrication to timeshare disposition. Getting weeks would be easy. Where I get murky is on how specifically this Viking Ship Vacation Trust would be able to consequently sustain itself, and not just that, but turn a decent profit. I'm struggling here.

 

[ronparise]

I don't disagree with what you're saying here. However, I don't believe compulsion through regulation is practical or even legal. So if the HOAs cannot be compelled to do so, how do thousands of independent HOAs arrive at a similar conclusion? ARDA? I don't know.

PCCs, just like this vacation trust idea, step in to add lubrication to timeshare disposition. Getting weeks would be easy. Where I get murky is on how specifically this Viking Ship Vacation Trust would be able to consequently sustain itself, and not just that, but turn a decent profit. I'm struggling here.

Profit? "ay, there's the rub" Hamlet

I didnt think of that


actually the more I think on this; profit isnt the motivator...making unwanted weeks productive again is. The HOAs have the most to gain here (back to the op) I dont think law or regulation will push this to something like this rather I think common sense should. If any government is involved it should be self government..I nominate ARDA. And since the HOAs are non profits so should this trust

there should be no mf paid from the trust to the hoas, rather the hoas should pay the trust to manage and move their inventory..

The trust will be nothing more than a non profit pcc the mission is to move timeshares from folks that dont want them to folks that do...

Ive been watching ebay for some time, and it seems to me that almost everthing sells. not always the first time, and maybe not the second, but sooner or later with enough inducements almost everything sells...

Ive bought and sold real estate since the 1970's everything from NYSE listed REITs to slum houses in the inner city (Baltimore) In my experience there is a price at which point everything sells, With timeshares it may be less than 0 but I think we can get it all sold..

All thats missing is a market maker...and thats what this trust has become..(at least in my head) a market maker established or at least endorsed by the HOAs...

 

[ampaholic]

I think most thinking timesharers would want RCI to stop renting exchange deposits to the general public, .... snip historical lesson ...

I am actually ambivalent about RCI renting individually deposited weeks - I don't want them to go unused and rot on the shelf ... but ... I also don't want them to be unavailable to RCI Members (exchangers and last call users).
I think a potential solution is a change to RCI's practice such as "no deposit can be available for rental until it has been available to exchangers for 30 days min. unless it is deposited less than 30 days before check in." Of course such a solution would require a class action suit :annoyed:

I think some of RCI's rentals are bulk deposits - I have no answer for those - I'm not even sure it is "bad" for RCI to rent them.

snip some bla bla about own to use is better...

Many of the so-called experts on this thread (John excluded) have never spent years in resort direction either on a hands-on HOA board or as a resort manager and are making quite a few statements that are nothing but their own personal opinion.

ah ... experience can make a person smarter depending on how they process it - I am afraid sometimes it just makes them more ... more .... more ... what's the word I'm looking for? ... ... ... ... ah well it's not smarter.

snip another RCI rant ...

I expect the next major change in a few years to be when RCI merges Points and Points Lite, and like most RCI changes, that one will have both winners and losers.

Actually a useful nugget - I also am wondering when and how they will blend them into one beastie - but not if.

 

[ampaholic]

Im reminded of the guy that is sitting on a park bench reading a newspaper. When he finishes a page he tears that page in strips and scatters them all around his bench.....A passerby asked him "What are you doing? his answer ..."It keeps away the elephants"... "But sir there are no elephants in the park"

"see it works"

fact: the guy was tearing up newspapers
fact: there are no elephants in the park
but also a fact..there is no connection between them


Carolinian has more facts than anyone here and more opinions...its just that they are often not connected except in his head

I dispute the last line - Carolinian's opinion is as welcome here as anyone's. I think he just needs to use his marketing skills better - especially his ability to come up with pithy, punchy but mostly brief comments.

 

[BocaBum99]

Profit? "ay, there's the rub" Hamlet

I didnt think of that


actually the more I think on this; profit isnt the motivator...making unwanted weeks productive again is. The HOAs have the most to gain here (back to the op) I dont think law or regulation will push this to something like this rather I think common sense should. If any government is involved it should be self government..I nominate ARDA. And since the HOAs are non profits so should this trust

there should be no mf paid from the trust to the hoas, rather the hoas should pay the trust to manage and move their inventory..

The trust will be nothing more than a non profit pcc the mission is to move timeshares from folks that dont want them to folks that do...

Ive been watching ebay for some time, and it seems to me that almost everthing sells. not always the first time, and maybe not the second, but sooner or later with enough inducements almost everything sells...

Ive bought and sold real estate since the 1970's everything from NYSE listed REITs to slum houses in the inner city (Baltimore) In my experience there is a price at which point everything sells, With timeshares it may be less than 0 but I think we can get it all sold..

All thats missing is a market maker...and thats what this trust has become..(at least in my head) a market maker established or at least endorsed by the HOAs...

If profit isn't the motive, then it is not a serious endeavor. It's a hobby.

 

[BocaBum99]

I dispute the last line - Carolinian's opinion is as welcome here as anyone's. I think he just needs to use his marketing skills better - especially his ability to come up with pithy, punchy but mostly brief comments.

RCI has nothing to do with the liquidity issue in timesharing. RCI has about as much impact on resale values of timeshares as a bucket of water has on the ocean.

 

[Beefnot]

RCI has nothing to do with the liquidity issue in timesharing. RCI has about as much impact on resale values of timeshares as a bucket of water has on the ocean.

Nice. Pithy and punchy. Oh, and sensical.

 

[ronparise]

If profit isn't the motive, then it is not a serious endeavor. It's a hobby.

Boca I think you miss my point. You cant be saying the work of HOAs is not a serious endeavor?

I agree with the op. The lack of liquidity is a problem that sits in the lap of the HOAs.

And the problem is not going to be solved without the the non profit HOAs taking the lead

We have seen what the profit motive does. Witness the PCCs.

 

[Carolinian]

Knowledge of facts means what? Nothing? It just means knowledge of facts. How you string facts together can be called analysis, opinion, and even speculation. Your assessment of factual changes in RCI is no more or less valid than my assessm--, I'm sorry, speculations. But since the economy tanked, now you have a correlation to hang your hat on as causality. Which is laughable.

Yes, blaming everything on the economy tanking is indeed quite laughable. The point at which eBay went to crap was BEFORE the economy tanked and was driven by the PCC's flooding eBay. There has really been no evidence of the broader timeshare market tanking at any point. Of course all timeshare markets, like other real estate, are local, but the only one where anyone has bothered to put together any hard numbers shows only a 20% volume decline since the economy tanked, and no real change in values, and that is only a mild decline not the catastrophie that some rant on about.

Why your speculation on the impact of the RCI changes is just that, is that you apparently have not been in a possition to see its actual impact on the ground, or to talk directly to those who have. So here, you are just posting your personal beliefs.

 

[ronparise]

I was on the ARDA website last night reading their Magazine ..It seems TimeSharing Today is assisting HOA board members to put together an association to address common problems and share solutions and perhaps.

Here in a few paragraphs the author has summed up the issues they face

not much different than what we have been discussing

 

[Beefnot]

I was on the ARDA website last night reading their Magazine ..It seems TimeSharing Today is assisting HOA board members to put together an association to address common problems and share solutions and perhaps.

Here in a few paragraphs the author has summed up the issues they face

not much different than what we have been discussing

Great excerpt, Ron. Hm, I suppose my "personal beliefs" are not so far removed from the speculation assessments of the TBMA. Wait, let me reread to make sure I didnt miss a reference to RCI.

 

[timeos2]

Great excerpt, Ron. Hm, I suppose my "personal beliefs" are not so far removed from the speculation assessments of the TBMA. Wait, let me reread to make sure I didnt miss a reference to RCI.

The idea that most timeshare buyers bought in because of the RCI trade system is ludicrous. Basing the current situation with blue / dog times and mostly seasonal demand on any exchange company actions is just wrong. They certainly haven't helped but are far from the main source of the issue.

If that is the base for other assumptions then all the "facts" are tainted.

 

[AwayWeGo]

I Resemble That Remark.

The idea that most timeshare buyers bought in because of the RCI trade system is ludicrous.

We bought our 1st timeshare in 2002, resale, with the idea in mind of going there 2 times a year for the indefinite future. (It's a lock-off -- we can use the "A" side now & the "B" side later in the year.)

We didn't get into RCI till later when (via TUG) we found out about low-cost tiger-trader timeshares in a far-off land overseas. We bought 1 of those, with 5 years of paid-ahead RCI membership included at no added cost, strictly for exchanges into nice USA timeshares.

The rest is history.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​