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Craigendarroch Lodges Purchase

HuskerATL

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Just to add also, we paid about $2k for each of our Craig purchases and have probably already come out ahead with our vacations. Could this change in the future, of course, but that is true for any affiliate or even ones that are managed by HGV, like South Carolina. Will those? I doubt it but Coy has show us that HGV will do what is best for them without considering their owners.
 

HuskerATL

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Here is the MF part to keep in mind also.

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bizaro86

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Just to compare: we lost 3x our Craig investment in a single developer retail purchase over the past 5 years - that's real dollars if we sold today resale. Now consider which of these option has less risk?

Obviously buying retail is a bad choice and has nothing to do with whether a Craig purchase is a good idea. How much you'd lose on a developer purchase is a comparison of apples to footballs.

What II resort with trading power can be bought for $0?

As to what II resort can be bought for zero, the answer to that is plenty of them. I have a couple of sheraton Desert Oasis units that were free, and they have Craig level fees and lock off to 2x one bedrooms that trade very well in II, plus have Vistana and secondary Marriott preference. There are 4br lockoffs in the east coast, lower point Hyatt units, etc. Tons of choices. It isn't that Craig is a bad II trader, it's just that if that's what you want you can get something as good or better for essentially free, so why pay $6k for Craig.


* The GPB per USD is at an all-time low. Even if prices decline, the actual cost may be the same or more if the dollar weakens. While MF will fluctuate, you only get one chance to lock in a purchase price. I don't know what the poster has offered but you can always go back and negotiate with the seller now to ease your perception of risk. That's what I would do.

The GBP is at a low level, which is a factor. That doesn't make it more likely to go up than go down, however. I do think prices are likely to go down so re-negotiating the deal to a lower price would be one way of easing the risk. I would comment that if you think the GBP is going to go way up, you're committing to ongoing fees in that currency, so it seems to me that would make Craig much less desirable for a US based purchaser as well.

In addition to II, one can rent out the Craig summer units for more than MF to recoup the remainder of the purchase price then move on.

* The Elite benefit may be taken away from future purchases. Possibly with the next rule book in 2023. (We will be grandfathered as long as HGVC offers elite benefits because it is written into our contract.)

Anyone buying to use or rent these units in the summer isn't affected at all and should go ahead. If they left it would probably up the bad debt to the association as some owners will default but probably not the end of the world. I wouldn't value the elite perks very highly, and think it's likely that they will get reduced over time anyway and moved to Max owners only as they try and sell the "latest and greatest" thing. If they slowly reduce the elite benefits to nothing and add new benefits to Max I wouldn't expect HGVC to give you that.


* IMO these prices are already at or near rock bottom with < $6k US purchase. If potentially losing this amount of money keeps you up at night you should not buy a timeshare (or play in the stock market. Have you looked at your stock portfolio recently?)

I have more money than I need because I don't waste it. Nobody said anything about being up at night over $6k, but a couple of people did ask for advice. Since most of the comments they got are from people who already own Craig and have a vested interested in pricing staying high I thought I'd chime in with an alternative opinion. Obviously I don't expect to change your mind (and as I mentioned for those who already own worrying adds no value at all).

Since we're on a complete aside, I'm up more than 15% year to date stock portfolio wise because I rotated into a decent portion of my portfolio into energy stocks (which were historically cheap) at the beginning of the year. That doesn't mean I'm correct about this, since it has absolutely nothing to do with whether it makes sense to buy Craig or not.

Except for maybe by analogy - Warren Buffet has said there are no called strikes in investing, which means wait for an obvious fat pitch before you swing. I think timeshares are the same. It's never an emergency to buy one, they're a luxury good. So personally, I wait for things that are obviously a great deal for my family before I buy. The uncertainty around Craig excludes that from the list for me right now. YMMV.
 

HuskerATL

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I wouldn't value the elite perks very highly,
I would argue against this. With EP, you don't have any booking fee, free guest certs, and can get upgrades, which we have. This year I have booked 28 reservations ($59 each) but many I have cancelled since I can book for free as a place holder so being EP for that has saved us $1,652. We have used 6 guest certs ($79 each) so that is another $474 savings. Then toss in the upgrades which I don't have a price for but it is a nice perk. Also, add in the Lyft credit of $250 which will be used up with our Vegas trip in a week. Then there are the non-monetary perks like the wrist bands, dedicated customer service line, etc. You can add in the 30% discount on Open Season but we have not used that this year.
 
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bizaro86

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I would argue against this. With EP, you don't have any booking fee, free guest certs, and can get upgrades, which we have. This year I have booked 28 reservations ($59 each) but many I have cancelled since I can book for free as a place holder so being EP for that has saved us $1,652. We have bought used 6 guest certs ($79 each) so that is another $474 savings. Then toss in the upgrades which I don't have a price for but it is a nice perk. Also, add in the Lyft credit of $250 which will be used up with our Vegas trip in a week. Then there are the non-monetary perks like the wrist bands, dedicated customer service line, etc. You can add in the 30% discount on Open Season but we have not used that this year.

If you're booking that many reservations and have the top tier it definitely adds value.
 

GT75

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I believe the safest decision when purchasing HGVC is to purchase the unit in the season at a resort that you would like to visit each year. That way, if either HGVC rules change or the resort is no longer in HGVC, you can still enjoy either your deeded fixed week or Home Week each year. This was always the advice that Tug user @Panina would give.
 

CalGalTraveler

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I think we can agree that both US and Scotland have pros/cons and risks. We own both.

In assessing affiliates such as Scotland, FL gulf, Bay Club etc. it is important to analyze the underlying structure of the HGVC/resort relationship. They are all different and you cannot look at them as simplistically the same. For example, Coy and Craig have significant ownership/structural differences which matters to assessing the risk of HGVC ceasing to manage.

If HGVC decided to leave Craig altogether, for the Suites they would need to sell the building whereas at Coy they simply needed to cancel a management contract. Selling the building would be akin to selling a USA property that HGVC owns. Unlikely unless the building is unprofitable and in need of great repair. AFAIK the Craig suites building appeared in good shape.

Unless the Craig lodge committee is unbearable and the lodges highly unprofitable (which I doubt), there is no financial incentive to remove managing the lodges because they would still need to remain and pay overhead to manage the Suites and main building that HGVC owns. i.e. they also would be unable to share the overhead costs of their building and pool amenities reducing profitability. A significant structural cost and customer experience synergy exists to remain with the Craig resort.

AFAIK the Florida affiliates aren't even managed by HGVC so the relationship is thin. But it makes for good sales candy even though there isn't much availability. OTOH, they could easily jettison many of those relationships if they decided it was below a revenue threshold to bother managing the relationship. They only need one resort the add a pinpoint to their sales chart.

YMMV...do your due diligence.
 
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timsi

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What II resort with trading power can be bought for $0?

There is no risk-free solution. Including buying resorts in the U.S. We own both.

Risk of waiting:

* The GPB per USD is at an all-time low. Even if prices decline, the actual cost may be the same or more if the dollar weakens. While MF will fluctuate, you only get one chance to lock in a purchase price. I don't know what the poster has offered but you can always go back and negotiate with the seller now to ease your perception of risk. That's what I would do.

* My MF in Craig for a 2 Bdrm (with GBP to US conversion) is at least $250/year less than my "inexpensive" Vegas 2 bdrm. Count that up over 4 years and I have saved $1000 in MF. That's almost a quarter of the price of my Craig investment recouped vs. Vegas. Approx. one free Craig MF for every 3 years owning Vegas. Plus Vegas will have about $1000 - $1500 in closing fees that the RTU in Craig does not. And you will need to wait months to close your resale with a potentially risky seller. In addition to II, one can rent out the Craig summer units for more than MF to recoup the remainder of the purchase price then move on.

* The Elite benefit may be taken away from future purchases. Possibly with the next rule book in 2023. (We will be grandfathered as long as HGVC offers elite benefits because it is written into our contract.)

* IMO these prices are already at or near rock bottom with < $6k US purchase. If potentially losing this amount of money keeps you up at night you should not buy a timeshare (or play in the stock market. Have you looked at your stock portfolio recently?)

Just to compare: we lost 3x our Craig investment in a single developer retail purchase over the past 5 years - that's real dollars if we sold today resale. Now consider which of these option has less risk?

YMMV based on your tolerance for risk and financial situation.
I agree with everything you said, there is no risk-free purchase. At the same time we do not know what the trading power would be if HGVC pulls out. Most American owners have purchased for HGVC so currently there are very few II deposits, and this makes them more valuable. If all those that use HGVC are forced to use Interval, the trading power may weaken significantly. Also, it seems the Craig units are fixed but the HGVC calendar is pretty generous with the platinum season and not all the units bought for HGVC will have top trading power. Additional deposits may also come from a slowing resale market. Yes, there are very few good traders for zero dollars, but they are not expensive either, they do not come with currency risk, and they may have priority that Craig does not have.
 

CalGalTraveler

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@timsi Good points. What I am describing is a worst-case fallback option vs. the II SDO strategy which is an upfront trader strategy (which could also risk trading power limitations by MVC since they own II to stop arbitragers and force developer purchases). I would never buy Craig just for the II relationship, however it is a nice backup option if you own plat summer weeks.

There are only 201 former HGVC members at Coy so if they joined II (TBD if they can do so. Craig belongs to II) that would hardly flood the market compared to the large MVC and Vistana desert traders.
 

spdhanr

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Great discussion. Loved the read.

Does buying at Tuscany or Portugal make sense given the strong $ to get to the premium elite status?
 

PigsDad

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Great discussion. Loved the read.

Does buying at Tuscany or Portugal make sense given the strong $ to get to the premium elite status?
To my knowledge, resales as Tuscany or Portugal do not count toward elite status.

Kurt
 

CalGalTraveler

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Good question. When we visited Borgo, we attended a sales presentation that I thought was HGVC. That was 7 years ago so things may have changed. The resort was new we were new and Elite was not on our minds..
 
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HuskerATL

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To my knowledge, resales as Tuscany or Portugal do not count toward elite status.
This comes up often about which resale do count. We know the Scotland do and the SW FL have in the past but I have heard they they may not now and they are not on the list in the reference guide, and I have heard that MarBrisa does. Do we have a list of those that currently count toward elite? I know the reference guide has a list of Elite eligible resorts on page 14 but I am not sure which only count from retail sales versus resale. Borgo is on the list and so is Vilamoura but not sure if they are only elite eligible if they are retail.
 

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Does anyone know if resale purchases through the HGV office at Craigendarroch still qualify for Elite? I have emailed Andrew Langton to ask about that twice over the past 2-3 weeks and he hasn't responded.
 

GT75

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Yes, as far as we know but Andrew is your person who knows the current status. @HuskerATL , do you have an update since you just purchased.
 

HuskerATL

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Does anyone know if resale purchases through the HGV office at Craigendarroch still qualify for Elite? I have emailed Andrew Langton to ask about that twice over the past 2-3 weeks and he hasn't responded.
yes they do. Just bought another week and it is written in the contract. We are already Elite Premier so the points didn't do anything for us, for elite purposes, but I assume they are there. No way that I know of to see your actual Elite point amount. It is odd that he has not responded. I sent him an email last night about a different matter and had an email from him this morning when I woke up. Did you ask him for the current sales list? I probably will be different than what is online.
 

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yes they do. Just bought another week and it is written in the contract.

Great to hear. I ended up calling Andrew and we're going to touch base on Monday.

I'm planning to get some more weeks with efficient MF/point ratio. Deciding between 12,480 point 1 bdr units at Elara vs 2 bdr/3 bdr units at Craigendarroch.

From what I understand about Cragendarroch, the resort will rent the units out for you if you don't want to use them for points. There is a 20% cut and it sounds like high demand weeks rent for more than the annual MFs. Looks like a 2 bdr annual MF is GBP 730 and rents for GBP 1715 - based on rates listed on the Craigendarroch rental site for a 7 night stay in July.

I was thinking about purchasing 4-5 weeks at Craigendarroch. My thought was that would allow me to have a lot of points to use some years but be able to rent out some of the weeks during years that I won't be able to use that many points. Renting out the weeks in GBP would also have the bonus of protection from currency fluctuations.

The one variable I don't know about is the demand for the rental market. Are all the weeks rented during peak times or is it hit-or-miss? I would hate to ask the resort to rent out a week and then have it sit empty because it wasn't rented. And I don't know about the demand for resale in Scotland if I decide that Craigendarroch doesn't work for me in the future.

Would appreciate any thoughts.
 

HuskerATL

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That is a big jump into Craig Lodges and as long as you have at least 54k points, you will be elite premier. The elite premier savings that we get for reservations and guest certs have actually covered the a big part of the cost of buying a week or the cost of MFs. Then add in the free upgrades, which happens about half the time depending on the property, the 30% discount on OS, and then the comp fees for almost any transaction (saving, HH converting, etc.). We have not rented ours out but my understanding that at the 31 day mark, if it is not rented out, they cancel the rental status so that you can convert it to points or trade in II. There is also the option to swap. Here is the last pricing that Andrew sent me for platinum units.

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raddoc

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That is a big jump into Craig Lodges and as long as you have at least 54k points, you will be elite premier. The elite premier savings that we get for reservations and guest certs have actually covered the a big part of the cost of buying a week or the cost of MFs. Then add in the free upgrades, which happens about half the time depending on the property, the 30% discount on OS, and then the comp fees for almost any transaction (saving, HH converting, etc.).

I have a bHC property and opted in for the AI option so reservation fees should be covered. I bought in an LLC so there is no charge for guest certificates. What I am missing with Elite status is an opportunity for upgrades at check-in and OS discount.

Trying to decide if it's worth pursuing Elite (plus or premier) given the less efficient point/MF ratio and potential currency fluctuation. The MF/point ratio for the Craig Lodges is roughly 1 cent/point higher for the 2 bedroom units (0.7 cents/point higher for the 3 bedrooms) than it is for the Elara unit I bought. So roughly $380-$540 more in annual MF for 54k points with Craig Lodges. Elite premier would save me $137 for the additional AI fee as well as $250 Lyft credit so it would pretty much be a wash. A stronger GBP would obviously alter the calculus.

Does anyone know if you would still maintain Elite status if you bought enough points (Craigendarroch) for Elite and later sold some - but still had enough non-Craigendarroch resale points for the Elite minimum requirements? Example: if I bought 54k points in Craig Lodges and got Elite premier and later sold (some or all of) the Craigs Lodges but still had 54k points from other resale units, would I maintain Elite status? I do want to keep my West 57th and District units for NYC/DC trips, 75K points a year would be too much for me!
 
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GT75

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Does anyone know if you would still maintain Elite status if you bought enough points (Craigendarroch or other retail) and then sold them but still had enough resale points for the Elite minimum requirements? Example- if I bought 54k points in Craig Lodges and got Elite premier and later sold (some or all of) the Craigs Lodges but still had 54k points from other resale units, would I maintain Elite status
Yes, as we currently know now but would of course need to check with Craig HGVC sales office
Example- if I bought 54k points in Craig Lodges and got Elite premier and later sold (some or all of) the Craigs Lodges but still had 54k points from other resale units, would I maintain Elite status?
No, from the rules.
 

HuskerATL

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What I am missing with Elite status is an opportunity for upgrades at check-in and OS discount.
I would not buy for upgrades, it happens but it is resort and availability dependent....and maybe luck. It is gravy...
Does anyone know if you would still maintain Elite status if you bought enough points (Craigendarroch) for Elite and later sold some - but still had enough non-Craigendarroch resale points for the Elite minimum requirements? Example: if I bought 54k points in Craig Lodges and got Elite premier and later sold (some or all of) the Craigs Lodges but still had 54k points from other resale units, would I maintain Elite status? I do want to keep my West 57th and District units for NYC/DC trips, 75K points a year would be too much for me!
I agree with @GT75. Your status is calculated based on your current ownership so you would lose it if you dropped below the needed amount to maintain your elite level. Having AI offsets some of the EP benefits like the free reservations but you also have no fees on almost everything else too, like guest certs, saving, HH conversion, etc. All that adds up if you would have paid those fees. For us the combination between the lack of reservation fees, a lot of points, and free guest certs really make the system much more interesting....and usable. You can easily calculate the costs and weigh the pros and cons.

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bcjenkins

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I love my Craigendarroch Lodges purchases. My wife and I have a 2BD at week 23, and a 3BD at weeks 23 and 24. (I don't need the points, so I'm selling the 2BD.) We go to Scotland for two weeks every June.

Enjoy!
 
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