CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[dioxide45]

Perhaps. Right now I pay a specific amount for my first VOI, a smaller specific amount for my second VOI, and nothing for any additional VOIs. If they make it based on the elite level, my VSN fees should go down because I'm a resale peon without any elite status.

In your case it will actually stay the same. The price for the lowest level Marriott DC Club fee is $215. The VSN fee is $155+$60. Works out the same. It will be single VOI owners or higher level elites that will see an increase.

 

[Captron]

So what happens if a Vistana owner doesn't sign whatever legal documents require their signature for membership?

Then they stay where they are right now, just like the current non-VSN fee members. (Ya gotta pay to play)

Now, whether or not they charge them the higher fee.... that will be seen.

 

[SueDonJ]

Club dues in the Marriott system are based upon total enrolled points. Club dues in the Vistana system will be based upon elite level. The higher the elite level, the higher the club fee which makes sense because the more you own, the more likely you are to have a higher level of transactional fees which are being consolidated into the club dues.

In the Destination Club it's the number of DC Points (purchased Trust Points and Exchange Points from enrolled Weeks combined) that determines the DC Status Tier, which in turn determines the annual Club Dues fee. Currently the fees are:

• $215 Owners and Select Members
• $255 Executive and Presidential Members
• $280 Chairman's Club Members

 

[Captron]

The fee structure will be based on whatever they decide they want to base the fee structure on. It may be (potential) club points, elite status, number of VOI/trust points, or based on the height of the owner. None of us have any idea and could speculate all day long. This is just another "wait and see" issue. Some will consider the result fair, some won't.

My point was they do not have to transfer the membership or automatically enroll anyone. They just increase the fee to match and provide the "added benefits".

Now, what they do with all the other permutations of enrolled/not enrolled/voluntary/mandatory, etc. will also have to be seen. Your guess is as good as mine, probably better. In the end our guesses, desires, expectations, don't matter. They will do everything they can to design the membership and fee structure to benefit shareholders and balance that with pi$$ing off members and come up with something that we will all just have to live with (or sell).

 

[CPNY]

I would agree. If they don't include unqualified mandatory resale Vistana weeks, it would be possible for someone to have an unqualified resale and a qualified week. Thus they would have to pay both fees and have two II accounts.

An owner with the following: a mandatory unenrolled resale week, a developer vistana week, an unenrolled Marriott trader, plus DC points could potentially have 3 II accounts. 4 if you add in a voluntary resale week into the VOI portfolio. I have a feeling they won’t separate mandatory resale owners corp II accounts if someone had an VSN enrolled and unenrolled in the same account. They will just add the same interval benefits to all corp interval accounts. That’s my hope anyway.

 

[dioxide45]

The fee structure will be based on whatever they decide they want to base the fee structure on. It may be (potential) club points, elite status, number of VOI/trust points, or based on the height of the owner. None of us have any idea and could speculate all day long. This is just another "wait and see" issue.

My point was they do not have to transfer the membership or automatically enroll anyone. They just increase the fee to match and provide the "added benefits".

The question is though, do the added benefits apply to everyone? I suspect the fee will be based on what the fee is based on now, and that is the Marriott DC Ownership level. No need to change it to something else.

 

[SueDonJ]

The fee structure will be based on whatever they decide they want to base the fee structure on. It may be (potential) club points, elite status, number of VOI/trust points, or based on the height of the owner. None of us have any idea and could speculate all day long. This is just another "wait and see" issue.

Of course, we're all speculating. But although this is new to Vistana owners, the Destination Club isn't a brand new entity in the same way that it was for us Marriott owners at its 2010 inception. We're already somewhat familiar with the legal structures/requirements, and to me it makes sense to consider the possibilities with those legal issues in mind.

Our website is unavailable until Monday otherwise we could be pulling excerpts from the DC governing docs that support the opt-in requirements for membership, and how the Club Dues fee is directly tied to the choice to enroll. It's clear in the docs, in legalese but clear nonetheless, that Marriott doesn't have the right to force any Marriott owner to become a member or be required to pay membership-related fees. I would hope that they don't have the right to do it with Vistana owners either.

Eligibility for membership is different - Marriott has the absolute right to determine which like products are eligible to be enrolled in the DC (and they have the right to occasionally change the eligibility requirements which they've done as intermittent sales incentives.) But membership isn't automatically conferred with eligibility and I think that's because the owners have the right to determine if they want in or not - which if they do want in, they must agree to the contract terms.

 

[dioxide45]

An owner with the following: a mandatory unenrolled resale week, a developer vistana week, an unenrolled Marriott trader, plus DC points could potentially have 3 II accounts. 4 if you add in a voluntary resale week into the VOI portfolio. I have a feeling they won’t separate mandatory resale owners corp II accounts if someone had an VSN enrolled and unenrolled in the same account. They will just add the same interval benefits to all corp interval accounts. That’s my hope anyway.

I don't think you could get to four. An unenrolled Marriott trader and a Vistana voluntary resale can be held in the same Individual II account. My suspicion is that when a Vistana VOI is enrolled, it will get a new II account just like Marriott weeks do when they get enrolled in DC. If someone has both an enrolled Marriott week and then enrolls an eligible Vistana VOI, they will just add that week to the same DC Corp II account they have for Marriott already and remove it from the Vistana Corp account.

 

[SandyPGravel]

I think what I have been asking might have just been answered by what @dioxide45 and @DanCali have said above. @VacationForever My head hurts too!

A question I should know the answer to: Is the VSN Membership Fee that’s on my statement that same thing as Club Dues? I get charged that every year on an EOY week. Now that seems ridiculous to me since I only own one week that is billed over 2 years. Why am I charged 2x for one week? Why don’t they charge me half of the VSN Membership Fee every year just like I pay half of the rest of the fees every year? Or am I confused again!

It's always been that way. That's a disadvantage of owning EOY. I thought the MF for an EOY weren't exactly 1/2 of the MF of an annual either. Aren't EOY MF higher? (I'm not sure about this aspect obviously)

 

[dioxide45]

It's always been that way. That's a disadvantage of owning EOY. I thought the MF for an EOY weren't exactly 1/2 of the MF of an annual either. Aren't EOY MF higher? (I'm not sure about this aspect obviously)

It depends on the resort. I had read in the past that there was an extra $30 fee on EOY maintenance fee billings. But we don't have that on our SVV EOY week. So it seems to be resort specific and perhaps applies to EOY Flex products.

 

[Captron]

Of course, we're all speculating. But although this is new to Vistana owners, the Destination Club isn't a brand new entity in the same way that it was for us Marriott owners at its 2010 inception. We're already somewhat familiar with the legal structures/requirements, and to me it makes sense to consider the possibilities with those legal issues in mind.

Our website is unavailable until Monday otherwise we could be pulling excerpts from the DC governing docs that support the opt-in requirements for membership, and how the Club Dues fee is directly tied to the choice to enroll. It's clear in the docs, in legalese but clear nonetheless, that Marriott doesn't have the right to force any Marriott owner to become a member or be required to pay membership-related fees. I would hope that they don't have the right to do it with Vistana owners either.

Eligibility for membership is different - Marriott has the absolute right to determine which like products are eligible to be enrolled in the DC (and they have the right to occasionally change the eligibility requirements which they've done as intermittent sales incentives.) But membership isn't automatically conferred with eligibility and I think that's because the owners have the right to determine if they want in or not - which if they do want in, they must agree to the contract terms.

Susan, I believe I qualified my comments to VSN fee paying members. If I did not, I intended to. These are all people that are in VSN either because it is mandatory at their resort or they have in some way opted in. This second group of people may be able to withdraw from VSN but they would likely lose the benefits they gained by joining (SO exchanges, corporate II account, etc.). The legalese between the two programs will likely change to be very similar if not almost exactly the same as allowed by the governing documents. It likely is quite similar in effect now. Eligibility and fees for the VSN members will be defined, just as it is for Marriott owners. Mandatory resort owners ARE required to be VSN members (with all the benefits and obligations included.)

Bottom line, unless they are mandatory resort owners, they have opted into VSN and have agreed to and signed documents appropriately. They also have the option to opt out. The fees will be set at whatever amount they determine. If they are mandatory resort owners they have signed acknowledgment that they are required to be members at purchase. That is part of their contract package. The program has the right to, and has, adjusted the fees. The eligibility for access to the Marriott system would just be an added benefit to VSN. No obligation. I am sure, that when a VSN member chooses to access the MVC system and convert to DC points the documents they sign will include an agreement to abide by the Marriott rules, yada yada yada...

 

[SueDonJ]

Susan, I believe I qualified my comments to VSN fee paying members. If I did not, I intended to. These are all people that are in VSN either because it is mandatory at their resort or they have in some way opted in. This second group of people may be able to withdraw from VSN but they would likely lose the benefits they gained by joining (SO exchanges, corporate II account, etc.). The legalese between the two programs will likely change to be very similar if not almost exactly the same as allowed by the governing documents. It likely is quite similar in effect now. Eligability and fees for the VSN members will be defined, just as it is for Marriott owners. Mandatory resort owners ARE required to be VSN members (with all the benefits and obligations included.)

I think I understand all that, and I never thought I'd be taking a crash course in VSN!

My viewpoint is that of a Marriott owner where enrollment in the DC is separate and distinct from every other facet of Marriott ownership, which requires contractual acceptance. Yours, I think (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) is that enrollment in the DC won't be separate and distinct for Vistana owners who are already in VSN, that DC membership will be conferred automatically - and related fees automatically required - with every VSN account.

Here again I think the difference is eligibility vs enrollment, which DeniseM's question&answer person seemed to make it very clear that VSN membership confers eligibility but wasn't clear at all that it would confer automatic enrollment. Even if all VSN members are eligible, knowing the DC set-up I just don't see how Marriott can dictate that all eligible Vistana owners/members are automatically enrolled whether they want to be or not. It just doesn't seem legally possible to me. That's why I see the DC option for all Vistana owners/members as a separate and distinct overlay on whatever your ownership consists of now, with those who choose it having their VSN club fees adjusted higher to reflect that choice but more importantly, with those who don't choose it not being subject to the higher fees.

 

[Captron]

I think I understand all that, and I never thought I'd be taking a crash course in VSN!

My viewpoint is that of a Marriott owner where enrollment in the DC is separate and distinct from every other facet of Marriott ownership. Yours, I think (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) is that enrollment in the DC won't be separate and distinct for Vistana owners who are already in VSN, that DC membership will be conferred automatically - and related fees automatically required - with every VSN account.

Here again I think the difference is eligibility vs enrollment, which DeniseM's question&answer person seemed to make it very clear that VSN membership confers eligibility but wasn't clear at all that it would confer automatic enrollment. Even if all VSN members are eligible, knowing the DC set-up I just don't see how Marriott can dictate that all eligible Vistana owners/members are automatically enrolled whether they want to be or not. It just doesn't seem legally possible to me. That's why I see the DC option for all Vistana owners/members as a separate and distinct overlay on whatever your ownership consists of now, with those who choose it having their VSN club fees adjusted higher to reflect that choice but more importantly, with those who don't choose it not being subject to the higher fees.

VSN membership, unlike DC enrollment, is required at some resorts (mandatory resorts). That is why resales at those resorts retain some, not all, of the benefits of VSN membership like the original owner. Any other (voluntary resorts) owners have opted into VSN, and could opt back out (based on their contract of course).

I never said DC membership will be conferred automatically. Perhaps I was unclear. I believe I said that the option to (voluntarily) access the DC system could be added as a VSN benefit. The benefit would be there if they choose to use it on an annual basis (as I understand from other's research) to convert their weeks/points (aka Options) to DC points. In exchange, Marriott members have access to "some" inventory from VSN properties. That inventory could come from weeks/points converted to DC points, Marriott inventory via buybacks/ROFR etc., Bonvoy point conversions, or wherever. That is another wait-and-see issue.

I would disagree with your last point. I could easily see them adjusting (raising) the fees and telling people "You now have access to these additional benefits..." [take it or leave it] That is why I scripted the sales pitch. They will have to soften the blow of additional costs with additional benefits in order not to have a mutiny (possible mass exodus) of members. That would not be in their financial best interest. In reality though, 35% seems like a big increase but when it really comes to less than or around $100. I don't see it as a huge issue for most. (Now when property insurance rates double, as they have recently in some areas of Florida, that means thousands to some people who can not afford it, but that is a different issue.)

As others have postulated, I believe that the DC option will simply be overlaid as an added benefit to the VSN program. The programs remain distinct entities. On this point, I think we agree.

Pure speculation: Could they, and would they, eventually merge the two programs? Probably would be my guess to both, eventually, but not for a long while and without some serious legal wrangling. I believe they have the contractual right to dissolve VSN completely and say "If you like, you have been granted access and can move all of your weeks/points to the DC system for ___ DC points" free or for $. Otherwise you could retain your ability to use your week/time, exchange it with an exchange company, or rent it out, like the old days of timeshare. (I bought original SVR Courts [pre Starwood], and SBP when it was still pre construction as an Embassy Resort, so I know those old days) I see that as being extremely unlikely, but I believe they can dissolve the network. I am not sure of the ability for the mandatory resorts but I believe even there they can terminate the agreement with the resort somehow. (I am sure that will be corrected by someone) Marriott created the DC system. I am sure there is an escape clause in their contracts somewhere that they can use to terminate it as well. Again, unlikely, but possible. Hence, buy where you want to go and deeds are considered better [to most] than points/options/???.

Lastly, the contract between the VSN the DC programs will dictate obligations, costs and benefits related to all of this. It will define the relationship between the two entities and it's members including what respective members can/can not do. That is all (to borrow a military phrase) above my pay grade.

 

[kozykritter]

Sometimes I have to remind myself on here to take a breath, let it go and not take it all so seriously. Can anyone relate?

 

[Captron]

Sometimes I have to remind myself on here to take a breath, let it go and not take it all so seriously. Can you relate?
View attachment 54011

Indeed, I just have some free time waiting for my daughters and appreciate the debate/mental sparring. I apologize if it seems otherwise. Susan, I hold no ill will. I appreciate the opportunity to learn.

 

[Red elephant]

I think what's driving the confusion here is when we see words like consolidated we start to think that Marriott is merging Vistana into its timeshare system. To be more accurate what I believe is happening is Marriott is consolidating the administration of the two timeshare systems into one process but not the actual property access portion of the two systems.

Essentially Marriott is changing Vistana's club dues/fees structure to match its own where it charges a higher club fee and all transactional fees are included, presumably so it can merge Vistana owners into its existing IT platform/process for club administration. This has nothing to do with whether a Vistana ownership will be able to enroll in DC. If you pay club/VSN dues on your ownership now you'll continue to pay it going forward. On the property access side, the two timeshare programs are remaining separate with the only bridge being this one-way enrollment option for qualified Vistana ownership into the DC system and the resulting ability for MVC owners to book that inventory when elected.

This is how it was explained to me at the presentation last week.

 

[SueDonJ]

Sometimes I have to remind myself on here to take a breath, let it go and not take it all so seriously. Can you relate?
View attachment 54011

I don't think I will ever understand the motivation of people who insert themselves into discussions in which they apparently have no interest by belittling those who are participating and are interested. If you don't like a thread, just don't read it! Why do you have to ascribe insulting motivations to the people who want to do what you don't want to do?!?!

Indeed, I just have some free time waiting for my daughters and appreciate the debate/mental sparring. I apologize if it seems otherwise. Susan, I hold no ill will. I appreciate the opportunity to learn.

I agree with you, @Captron, and also intend no ill will. These kinds of detailed threads have always interested me on TUG! Vistana people are facing a substantial change to their ownerships - some want to talk it out, some don't, and there's nothing wrong with either choice. It doesn't seem to me that anyone is here declaring themselves to be more correct than anyone else - we're all just people who might have knowledge to bring to the table. I can appreciate that Vistana people can teach me a whole lot about what they own, and I hope that the knowledge I have about what I own is equally appreciated. There's no doubt that eventually, whenever Marriott finally springs on Vistana owners whatever it is they're facing that will integrate our ownerships, both viewpoints will only help to understand it sooner rather than later.

 

[robertk2012]

Club dues in the Marriott system are based upon total enrolled points. Club dues in the Vistana system will be based upon elite level. The higher the elite level, the higher the club fee which makes sense because the more you own, the more likely you are to have a higher level of transactional fees which are being consolidated into the club dues.

What if I don’t have an elite level?


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[dioxide45]

What if I don’t have an elite level?


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In the Marriott DC program, everyone has an ownership level. If you have no Vistana elite level, you would likely be considered either "Owner" or "Select" in the MVC DC tiers. It would depend on how many Club Points your VOIs would elect for.

 

[robertk2012]

What dates have you been given for the the new system? I was told that June 1 and June 30 would be the cutoff for deeded sales.


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[DanCali]

What if I don’t have an elite level?

That a minor issue that you can solve at your next owner update. Just have your credit card handy and $30K-$40K in available credit!

 

[rickandcindy23]

WKOVRN 2BR OF is worth 8325 destination points. That is a huge points generator and efficient with MFs. I own EOY and pay about $3200 for one week ($1600 EOY). With it worth 8325 DPs, that comes out to $0.38 vs DP cost of about $0.65 in MFs. But what matters to me is I prefer MVC over Vistana’s program for several reasons. I also like that with 8325 DPs, I can get many more weeks at any MVC/Vistana resort with (hopefully) the 13 month booking window. Okay, this is just me. I can see why if someone’s Vistana week is not worth many DPs, then the Vistana program is better.

I bought mine resale. Marriott hates resale.

 

[TravelTime]

I bought mine resale. Marriott hates resale.

I bought mine resale but I plan to enroll it because it is a great point generator and cost effective on a MF basis. I can travel 2-3 weeks with 8325 points anywhere with great views or I can get the equivalent of 1.5 weeks in most places in Hawaii in oceanfront category or I can use my primary week. If I were okay with traveling without ocean front then even in Maui, the point cost will be below 8325.

For example, in June we are going to Ritz Carlton St Thomas for 15 nights and it is 8000 points. All the units are ocean front with fabulous views.

I have a week booked over Easter break (very high season) at the MOC / Maui oceanfront in Lahaina/Napili and it is only a little more than what I get. It is 8550 DPs. I am using my WKOVRN week followed by a second week at MOC. But if I book in a lower season, it would be 7450 points instead in OF category. If I were okay with ocean view category, 6650 DPs.

Another example is a week at Marco Island in gulf front that I have booked. It costs 4250 DPs. Marco Island in any season books up right away even in low season. It is just as desirable as Maui but a lot fewer points needed.

The other benefit is by enrolling, I will be Chairman’s Club level. It does not have many benefits over Presidential but I like the extra 6 months of banking so it becomes 2 years of banking. I am hoping MVC enhances Chairman’s Club at some point. They really need to if they want to sell more points to Presidential level members.

So IMO, enrolling WKOVRN 2BR OF is a fabulous thing. I understand that many people are happy using their week or many Vistana resorts are not great point generators. In that case, I would not enroll.

I assume you know all this. Everyone has different preferences and that is okay. I am just sharing why I want to enroll.

 

[DanCali]

I bought mine resale but I plan to enroll it because it is a great point generator and cost effective on a MF basis.

....

So IMO, enrolling WKOVRN 2BR OF is a fabulous thing.
I assume you know all this. Everyone has different preferences and that is okay. I am just sharing why I want to enroll.

Does the cost to enroll matter to you at all? Don't forget - you're just enrolling in an exchange company. If Interval asked you for a $5000 enrollment fee, would you do it?

Marriott's "enrollment fee" is over $30K... Technically you'd be buying some DC points or a "bundle" and enrolling a resale week as a bonus, but whatever they sell you will be worth 20c on the dollar if you ever try to sell it, so you can view you upfront capital loss as an "enrollment fee".

I own several MVC resale weeks, a couple with MF/Point ratio even better than the WKORV/N OF weeks - I believe it's around 31c and 34c in my case. I might be willing to enroll them for a "reasonable" enrollment fee of say up to $1/point (which would still be 4-5 times what I paid for pre-2010 resale weeks) - but not for buying 3000 points I don't need, with a level of MFs I have no desire to pay.

I get what you can do with 8325 points. I get that the rental value of those points is quite higher than the rental value of your week. But saying it's a "fabulous thing" really should depend on the price you pay. And historically, that price has been very steep.

I'd think of it like this:

• Enrollment fee: $30,000
• Rental value of your week $4500-$4800.
• Rental value of that week's elected points $5800.
• Annual gain from enrollment $1000-$1300/year (this really applies only in years you do not actually use your week to stay, but let's call it "annual")

How long would it take you to recoup that initial enrollment cost? If it's 5 years or less, great deal. 5-8 years good to decent deal, 9-12 years mediocre to less-than-average deal. In this case it's more like 25-30 years!

Not that I'm a fan of Flex, but the Vistana retro deal for $10K is something I'd consider if I had a WKORV/N OF week to enroll. The MVC 3000 DC point enrollment deals, not so much...

By the way - I see you already have DC Points and can therefore rent more from others as you need them. Why not just use rental income from your WKORVN week to rent 6500-7000 points annually in years you were going to elect points? It's not quite 8325 points, but you're also not spending $30K+ on a product you may not necessarily even need more of.

 

[TravelTime]

Does the cost to enroll matter to you at all? Don't forget - you're just enrolling in an exchange company. If Interval asked you for a $5000 enrollment fee, would you do it?

Marriott's "enrollment fee" is over $30K... Technically you'd be buying some DC points or a "bundle" and enrolling a resale week as a bonus, but whatever they sell you will be worth 20c on the dollar if you ever try to sell it, so you can view you upfront capital loss as an "enrollment fee".

I own several MVC resale weeks, a couple with MF/Point ratio even better than the WKORV/N OF weeks - I believe it's around 31c and 34c in my case. I might be willing to enroll them for a "reasonable" enrollment fee of say up to $1/point (which would still be 4-5 times what I paid for pre-2010 resale weeks) - but not for buying 3000 points I don't need, with a level of MFs I have no desire to pay.

I get what you can do with 8325 points. I get that the rental value of those points is quite higher than the rental value of your week. But saying it's a "fabulous thing" really should depend on the price you pay. And historically, that price has been very steep.

I'd think of it like this:

• Enrollment fee: $30,000
• Rental value of your week $4500-$4800.
• Rental value of your points $5800.
• Annual gain from enrollment $1000-$1300/year

How long would it take you to recoup that initial enrollment cost? If it's 5 years or less, great deal. 5-8 years good to decent deal, 9-12 years mediocre to less-than-average deal. In this case it's more like 25-30 years!

Not that I'm a fan of Flex, but the Vistana retro deal for $10K is something I'd consider if I had a WKORV/N OF week to enroll. The MVC 3000 DC point enrollment deals, not so much...

By the way - I see you already have DC Points and can therefore rent more from others as you need them. Why not just use rental income from your WKORVN week to rent 6500-7000 points annually in years you were going to elect points? It's not quite 8325 points, but you're also not spending $30K+ on a product you may not necessarily even need more of.

Thank you for all your good input. All great points.