Clark Howard hates Bonvoy

[chunkygal]

V
Clark Howard on his 9/18/24 podcast discussed devalued hotel points/ loyalty programs. He thinks marriott is the worst. And he further goes into the best and fees.
We always use our free nights, which to me balances out the fee, but it got me thinking. We have 1.5 million points. Should we use the and switch to a better card? Loyalty seems to be one way.

 

[ljmiii]

No idea who Clark Howard is or why he has it in for Marriott, but of the three programs in which I have significant 'investment' - Marriott, Hilton, and United - Bonvoy points have done the best over the past five years. They have slightly increased in value while Hilton has held steady and United's have plummeted. That said, Marriott certainly values my loyalty least.

As for hotel cards, I only use my Bonvoy card for Marriott charges. And the FNC is well worth the annual fee of the Chase or 'have to downgrade into' basic AMEX. (And I just switched to using the Chase Bonvoy for gas and groceries for the rest of the year because I hit the $15K spend/FNR on my Hilton AMEX Surpass). Hilton's AMEX Surpass and Aspire offer very good value and their complementary benefits make it worth having both. Lastly, I'm told that Hyatt and their card are excellent...I'll just never make Globalist so don't bother.

As for airlines, you almost certainly should have the credit cards for the ones on which you travel frequently. For other travel spend, the Chase Sapphire Reserve (or Preferred). And for miscellaneous spend, one of the many 2% cash back cards.

 

[claraj]

I think whether you stay with Marriott or switch depends on how you travel and who you have maintenance fees with. I have friends and family who are big fans of Hilton, but I haven't stayed with them much.

I have both Hyatt and Bonvoy points. I think Hyatt has better value but they have a much smaller foot print. I only started accruing Bonvoy points when I became a MVC owner. I have found that Marriott can fill in the gaps where Hyatt does not have properties. Before I became a MVC owner, I stayed at boutique hotels to fill in those gaps.

I take advantage of being able to convert Chase Ultimate points to Hyatt points at 1:1 ratio. I've been able to redeem free nights at Baha Mar during Easter week for only 25-29k per night (more points for the weekend nights).

 

[claraj]

I'll just never make Globalist so don't bother.

I made it this year only because I joined a challenge and had 14 nights booked between February and March breaks. I agree that 60 nights is really hard to get even if you can earn 2 nights with every $5k you spend on their credit card. It's also disappointing to find out Hyatt vacation club nights do not count.

 

[chunkygal]

Clark Howard is a nationally broadcast consumer expert. Has a national podcast been in ATL on WSB since the 90's

 

[dioxide45]

Marriott Bonvoy is the program we use the most. We've dabbled in a few others. Perhaps we could have squeezed out an extra 10% of value by using some other loyalty program. We don't really work all the programs or the cards or whatever else may be out there. We just take Bonvoy point that we get mostly for free and use those for hotel stays. Are there better programs out there, perhaps, but it would mean I need to learn a whole new system to make it work. We like the product and the properties so Bonvoy works for us. I don't begrudge them for diluting the program, which program hasn't done the same. Do I still wish they had the 5 and 7 night travel packages, sure, but when they got rid of those, it worked out better for us at the time.

 

[gravityrules]

Feds are investigating the major airlines loyalty programs. Seems to me the stated reasons for that would also apply to Marriott, Hilton, etc. loyalty programs. Arbitrary devaluation of points is a theme common to both industries.

 

[jp10558]

I'm a huge Hilton Honors fan for a number of reasons.

1. Hilton has properties almost anywhere. So no problem accessing a location. This is pretty important to me.
2. Hilton properties almost always meet brand standards, and there's plenty of inexpensive options in Hampton, HGI, Doubletree, etc.
3. The Surpass or Aspire card are easy to get and maintain Diamond status.
4. The free nights are free nights at near all Hilton locations, so easy to use for any trip I've ever been on. No tiers or blackout dates etc.
5. Points values vary but standard room rewards have stayed pretty similar for the last 10 years or so since the last "devaluation". I'm hoping they stay steady.
6. 5th night free on points stays.
7. Aspire stacks real nice with HGVC if you have one of the resorts in the list - $400 credit(2 MF payments annually) on the $550 annual fee. Also stacks nice with United, $200 credit in 4 quarterly $50 travelbank purchases.
8. Aspire lets you earn 3 Free Nights a year. Automatic Diamond status AND now National Emerald status.

I usually use Hilton in cities where there aren't timeshares, or if I need an overnight or two driving to a location. The only downside is you only have a year to use the Free Night Cert from issue date. I used to use them in NYC around Christmas, may do so again if I'm not going elsewhere with a hotel needed.

 

[Sandy VDH]

I have lifetime status at Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. All from Hotel stays, since I don't own a Marriott timeshare.

I too have found Marriott less appealing lately. I seem to rarely get upgrades, and fell like I get treated like every joe checking in the place.

I find I get treated better at Hilton via my Diamond Status, they always acknowledge it, and seem to be better about upgrades. I also like my perks on my AMEX Aspire better than my Marriott Card. The free night at any location's entry level room reward is very valuable. I find the Marriott which gives me 35K is very limited in its value, as many locations I want to go far exceed that 35K value.

 

[dioxide45]

I find the Marriott which gives me 35K is very limited in its value, as many locations I want to go far exceed that 35K value.

This is one area where we have seen devaluation. The certs we get are either 35K or 40K. You can add 15K points to that to make a reservation. The problem is many of the rooms we try to book are either 52K or perhaps 56K. Just out of reach of the cert plus points. I suspect the hotel properties don't get much from Bonvoy when those certs are redeemed.

The late checkout is also a big issue for us. Titanium is supposed to be up to 4pm. We have only got that one or two times. Most times it is 1pm or even 12:30. Something they would offer to anyone requesting a late checkout. Not much there for Titanium members.

 

[TUGBrian]

Clark Howard is a nationally broadcast consumer expert. Has a national podcast been in ATL on WSB since the 90's

and has probably sent more people to TUG by referral than anyone! hes been a tug supporter since the 90s too!

 

[dioxide45]

and has probably sent more people to TUG by referral than anyone! hes been a tug supporter since the 90s too!

When does he get his TUG Lifetime Member banner?

 

[TUGBrian]

haha, it would be something if he were a member thats for sure!

hes earned that banner 100x over!

 

[kwelty]

Clark Howard is how I learned about TUG and that was around 20 years ago. Unfortunately, I have never heard him acknowledge the benefits of timesharing. I would love to hear a conversation between him and TUGBrian on either one's YouTube channel about the pros and cons of timesharing, I think Clark would be enlightened. BTW, both are my heros.

 

[Dean]

I watched the segment referenced by the OP the day it aired on YouTube. He was fairly negative but IIRC his biggest beef was that VIP members were not consistently being given the stated perks by the hotels and that Marriott was allowing this omission. I tend to agree with him but it's a little like saying that buying a timeshare is a poor choice. Out in the general population for those ill informed and/or buying retail, that would be a true statement across the board. Even some that are well informed would say the same and I've seen statements on TUG of late where members who owned would not buy again. Many of us are in a unique position being tied to the brand and I'd dare say that all of us are more informed than the average member to maximize benefits.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

I am a regular listener to Clark's podcast and agree with Dean's assessment of the segment. If you listen to more of Clark's segments, in general he is down on most loyalty programs, not just Bonvoy, and promotes more of a free agent approach, shop each of our hotel stays by price, not just because the property is part of a particular program. The same goes for flights in his opinion.

Clark Howard's views and opinions are geared toward a mass audience, so that probably makes sense. Many people, myself included and get spun up in trying to achieve or renew a certain elite level or just stay at once brand because you have the credit card.

 

[ocdb8r]

No idea who Clark Howard is or why he has it in for Marriott, but of the three programs in which I have significant 'investment' - Marriott, Hilton, and United - Bonvoy points have done the best over the past five years. They have slightly increased in value while Hilton has held steady and United's have plummeted.

I'm not sure what metric or source you're referring to, but this isn't what I've observed based on Nerdwallet valuations which have Bonvoy points dropping in value from approximately 1.2c/point to 0.9 today. They show Hilton increasing from 0.5c/point in 2019 to 0.6c/point today (just a slight increase).

Regardless, personal experiences will always vary. With significant points sitting in all 4 major programs (Bonvoy, Hilton, IHG and Hyatt) I personally get the best value from my Hilton relationship. Hilton earning is much more generous compared to Bonvoy, both for base points and all the bonuses (particularly if you're using a Hilton credit card, which earns vastly more points (and value) than any of the Bonvoy cards - even after taking into account the variance in "point value"). As noted below, there are some other upsides for Hilton (such as night certs being usable at nearly all resorts, regardless of point value and much better adherence to "brand standards" as it comes to loyalty).

I'm not saying Bonvoy doesn't provide value. We always have a stash of points as there are instances where the Bonvoy properties are better or provide better value in individual cities or circumstances...I'm just reporting my overall experience over the past 10 or so years.

I'm a huge Hilton Honors fan for a number of reasons.

1. Hilton has properties almost anywhere. So no problem accessing a location. This is pretty important to me.
2. Hilton properties almost always meet brand standards, and there's plenty of inexpensive options in Hampton, HGI, Doubletree, etc.
3. The Surpass or Aspire card are easy to get and maintain Diamond status.
4. The free nights are free nights at near all Hilton locations, so easy to use for any trip I've ever been on. No tiers or blackout dates etc.
5. Points values vary but standard room rewards have stayed pretty similar for the last 10 years or so since the last "devaluation". I'm hoping they stay steady.
6. 5th night free on points stays.
7. Aspire stacks real nice with HGVC if you have one of the resorts in the list - $400 credit(2 MF payments annually) on the $550 annual fee. Also stacks nice with United, $200 credit in 4 quarterly $50 travelbank purchases.
8. Aspire lets you earn 3 Free Nights a year. Automatic Diamond status AND now National Emerald status.

I usually use Hilton in cities where there aren't timeshares, or if I need an overnight or two driving to a location. The only downside is you only have a year to use the Free Night Cert from issue date. I used to use them in NYC around Christmas, may do so again if I'm not going elsewhere with a hotel needed.

 

[ljmiii]

I'm not sure what metric or source you're referring to, but this isn't what I've observed based on Nerdwallet valuations which have Bonvoy points dropping in value from approximately 1.2c/point to 0.9 today.

Both Nerdwallet and TPG have the issue that their valuation assumes you *have* to use the points rather than picking and choosing when to use them. My average Bonvoy redemption over that time period has increased slightly from around a penny a point to a little over 1.1c/point.

That said, it is certainly true that this is because Marriott's cash prices have increased dramatically (and for me slightly more than points prices).

... I personally get the best value from my Hilton relationship.

I certainly am happiest with Hilton for all the reasons you gave. And perhaps even more so because (as Diamond) I am uniformly treated well and often given free upgrades. In the US at least, Marriott hotels seem to be at war with their Elite customers.

 

[jp10558]

If you listen to more of Clark's segments, in general he is down on most loyalty programs, not just Bonvoy, and promotes more of a free agent approach, shop each of our hotel stays by price, not just because the property is part of a particular program.

I kind of disagree here - just that IME (which by necessity is limited, but I'd argue more than the average person) shopping simply by price means staying at Motel 6 or I guess potentially sketchier. Outside of say Travelzoo deals (which TBH are often so limited to make my timeshare uses seem simple in my travel plans) booking.com or whoever will maybe save you a little - like 5% or so - over the AAA or Hilton Honors pre-pay prices. Now, for me, I think the 14x points I get from Aspire closes that gap, and I can use points and cash if I really want to hit the same valuation. What I gain for paying very slightly more is the "brand standard", often free bottled water as a Diamond member (which itself often saves a percentage point or so vs buying), and the app benefits for booking, check in, digital key, etc.

The same goes for flights in his opinion.

Flights make a lot more sense because I've seen swings of several hundred dollars a ticket, which tends to overwhelm most loyalty programs. This is especially true if your departure airport options are 3 regional airports. Since I've started just driving the 5 hours to Newark I can see United often having good rates from there, but even then I don't fly enough to build rewards from them, and trying to use the miles seems like an exercise in frustration looking at my one family member who has a lot of points and is trying to use them up.

Clark Howard's views and opinions are geared toward a mass audience, so that probably makes sense.

The problem I always find in the "mass audience" is that - I'm kind of amazed people have to be told to use a comparison search engine if you have no loyalty in 2024. Or just the most generic advice that I am also flabbergasted people have to be told to do. Then again - I'm also shocked how many people - given Amazon and the internet reach to specialty shops and the like, just run into a small store and pick whatever they happen to have on the shelf today. Then wonder why it's generally not up to snuff compared to the things I usually do.

Many people, myself included and get spun up in trying to achieve or renew a certain elite level or just stay at once brand because you have the credit card.

This is true for me - I need a pretty big pull, a la timeshares, to go away from Hilton branded hotels because of the card.

 

[Dean]

I kind of disagree here - just that IME (which by necessity is limited, but I'd argue more than the average person) shopping simply by price means staying at Motel 6 or I guess potentially sketchier. Outside of say Travelzoo deals (which TBH are often so limited to make my timeshare uses seem simple in my travel plans) booking.com or whoever will maybe save you a little - like 5% or so - over the AAA or Hilton Honors pre-pay prices. Now, for me, I think the 14x points I get from Aspire closes that gap, and I can use points and cash if I really want to hit the same valuation. What I gain for paying very slightly more is the "brand standard", often free bottled water as a Diamond member (which itself often saves a percentage point or so vs buying), and the app benefits for booking, check in, digital key, etc.

I think you misunderstood what was said or at least the intent. What I've heard CH say is shop around and not just look at o ne brand. If one is paying cash, then I completely agree with that sentiment. If that pushes them to a dump simply looking at the price, that's on them.

Flights make a lot more sense because I've seen swings of several hundred dollars a ticket, which tends to overwhelm most loyalty programs. This is especially true if your departure airport options are 3 regional airports. Since I've started just driving the 5 hours to Newark I can see United often having good rates from there, but even then I don't fly enough to build rewards from them, and trying to use the miles seems like an exercise in frustration looking at my one family member who has a lot of points and is trying to use them up.

A key point that CH makes is to think out of the box when it comes to about everything, especially flights. Such as for areas that are captive such as a main hub for a given airline where the other airlines out of that location are often considerably cheaper plus if one looks at other airports there can be quite a bit of difference comparing to a major HUB.

The problem I always find in the "mass audience" is that - I'm kind of amazed people have to be told to use a comparison search engine if you have no loyalty in 2024. Or just the most generic advice that I am also flabbergasted people have to be told to do. Then again - I'm also shocked how many people - given Amazon and the internet reach to specialty shops and the like, just run into a small store and pick whatever they happen to have on the shelf today. Then wonder why it's generally not up to snuff compared to the things I usually do.

This is true for me - I need a pretty big pull, a la timeshares, to go away from Hilton branded hotels because of the card.

I'm amazed also but the reality is that the vast majority of consumers don't have a clue that these things matter and/or are too lazy to put in the effort.

The one thing I tend to disagree with CH about is he's so focused on price that he may not take a balanced approach in some situations.

 

[jp10558]

I think you misunderstood what was said or at least the intent. What I've heard CH say is shop around and not just look at o ne brand. If one is paying cash, then I completely agree with that sentiment. If that pushes them to a dump simply looking at the price, that's on them.

I guess hidden in my reply is that for many people I think "brand standard" is worth a slight premium, or else chain restaurants wouldn't do so well. When you're somewhere you don't know, you (well, at least used to be pre COVID, this may be recovering or this wisdom may be changing depending on the brand) pretty much know what you're getting at a Johnny Rockets or Applebees. It's a narrower band than "random local joint found on google" where the highs can be amazing but the lows can be downright disgusting.

A key point that CH makes is to think out of the box when it comes to about everything, especially flights. Such as for areas that are captive such as a main hub for a given airline where the other airlines out of that location are often considerably cheaper plus if one looks at other airports there can be quite a bit of difference comparing to a major HUB.

IDK, in central NY, it's always a layover and an extra $200-$400 per ticket to fly vs Newark or JFK. That generally exceeds 5 hour drive in cost and frustration and time.

I'm amazed also but the reality is that the vast majority of consumers don't have a clue that these things matter and/or are too lazy to put in the effort.

I just wonder if these people listen to CH either lol. You literally cannot teach some people, they are willfully ignorant. I guess we all are about something, and you may very well not have travel as a priority. I get it - I have things I just don't prioritize, and will just "overpay" to not deal with it, like oil changes.

The one thing I tend to disagree with CH about is he's so focused on price that he may not take a balanced approach in some situations.

This is indeed one thing that tends to tick me off - people who know "the cost of everything but the value of nothing". Sometimes getting something cheap isn't worth the money at all. I'm often more interested in most bang for your buck - but that takes research and effort.

 

[Fasttr]

This is indeed one thing that tends to tick me off - people who know "the cost of everything but the value of nothing". Sometimes getting something cheap isn't worth the money at all. I'm often more interested in most bang for your buck - but that takes research and effort.

One of my Dad’s favorite sayings…. You don’t always get what you pay for, but you usually pay for what you get.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

I kind of disagree here - just that IME (which by necessity is limited, but I'd argue more than the average person) shopping simply by price means staying at Motel 6 or I guess potentially sketchier. Outside of say Travelzoo deals (which TBH are often so limited to make my timeshare uses seem simple in my travel plans) booking.com or whoever will maybe save you a little - like 5% or so - over the AAA or Hilton Honors pre-pay prices. Now, for me, I think the 14x points I get from Aspire closes that gap, and I can use points and cash if I really want to hit the same valuation. What I gain for paying very slightly more is the "brand standard", often free bottled water as a Diamond member (which itself often saves a percentage point or so vs buying), and the app benefits for booking, check in, digital key, etc.

Just because i listen to Clark, does not mean i am in complete agreement with him on every subject.

In this case, he does speak of staying at Motel 6, Red Roof Inn, Drury and lot of other lower cost places. For our travel, we shift between lower cost places, but more luxury places like Ritz Carltons, Conrad, Waldorf, etc. I use a combination of cash, points, and free night certs to make it all work.

Its definitely not the cheapest way to travel, but we enjoy it and so far not going into to debt to do so.

 

[LeslieDet]

V
Clark Howard on his 9/18/24 podcast discussed devalued hotel points/ loyalty programs. He thinks marriott is the worst. And he further goes into the best and fees.
We always use our free nights, which to me balances out the fee, but it got me thinking. We have 1.5 million points. Should we use the and switch to a better card? Loyalty seems to be one way.

Not my experience. I'm only lifetime platinum (the old fashioned way) and just this year I've stayed over 35 hotel nights (not timeshare nights), have consistently been upgraded in Cairo, Jordan (the Dead Sea and Amman), London, Prague, Vienna, and three different sites in Scotland. All but 3 nights had fabulous breakfast options for me and a guest who isn't a BonVoy member. Lounge access too. Only had to purchase 3 breakfasts in all of those stops as one of the AC's did not offer breakfast to platinum level members. But in all other properties, just the evening drinks and food served saved $$$, not to mention the bottled water. Late checkout whenever I asked. And, of those 35 hotel nights, all but 7 were using BonVoy points or my cc free night certificates. And, in each property there was always a welcome gift and for most, but not all, a personal note from the manager along with another gift, typically a fruit plate, bottle of wine or sweets. I believe Marriott is loyal and treats its customers quite well.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

IMO European hotels are better at these perks than US hotels.