CJ Timeshare Info

[Someonewhoknows]

Ok, time for an update...and some disclosure.

On the disclosure side, I've been in the TS industry for 21 years, and I'm extremely well connected with some very influential people in the industry. I'm somewhat embarrassed (and obviously confused) about this whole thing, but the good thing is that I've been able to connect with senior people at RCI, Interval, ARDA and the parent company of Timeshare Closing Services, Vacation Innovations. It's apparently "being handled", and it's moved up the food chain...but it's still a mess.

First, my entire dialogue with George Friedman was done via text message, and I have copied and pasted all of the texts to the people who can (hopefully) help. He has vaguely described the sale as "bogus" and has emphatically stated to me that "mgt is telling you that you are not an owner and will not be occupying the unit."

When I look at my escrow docs, the seller is listed as "Timeshare Free, LLC"; an entity that I assume is a relief company. (Why anyone would PAY a relief company to take a Jazzfest week off their hands is beyond me. The cheapest week out there right now is $10,000+!) I assume that Friedman (rightfully) hates relief companies - as do I - and he doesn't want to honour the transfer. In this case, however, they actually have a legitimate owner waiting in the wings to take over the ownership, pay the maintenance fees, etc. Why would he want to kill a deal like that? As I've said before, there's a real incentive for him to buy back that week at a discount price.

He has taken straight aim at Timeshare Closing Services, and his first text to me said the following: "They solicit elderly timeshare owners ovr the phone havem attnd meeting at hotel. Promise to take title of week for paym of $2500 or more for service we do for $295. After chk clears they file fudged paperwork plus skip on real estate transfer tax. Totally out of compliance. Week u paid them for still in name of original owner. TCSI is a missouri corp doing biz in fla w no registr w state that we cld find. Business of brokerng n trans title to fee simple real estate without reg or affiliated real estate broker not legal. I have informed owner of record of situation. I value my Louisiana ts lisc so will no do bus w TCSI."

Clearly, Friedman seems to have confused TCSI with a "relief company". TCSI (as well as CJ Timeshares) are furious, and they've apparently engaged their legal department to defend these "slanderous comments".

I have no idea where this will end up - I'll keep y'all posted - but I do know that if the deal doesn't close, I'll have all my money returned by TCSI. The bigger (and more pressing) issue is that two airfares have been already purchased, Jazzfest tickets bought and, as it sits, we have no place to stay. :>(

Thanks for all your support folks - you're the best!

 

[Someonewhoknows]

Your mistake, if you can call it a mistake, was alerting George to what you were doing, by trying to lock in your reservation before you owned the place

Ron, thank you SO MUCH for your sage advice.

To be clear, I only contacted George directly because NOBODY at CJ or TCSI has apparently had any luck securing my "guest certificate" for this year's use week. I first assumed that they've just survived Mardi Gras, and getting in touch with them during carnival would be next to impossible. Regardless, from my perspective, it didn't seem like Janet at CJ was doing anything, so I just thought I would get the ball rolling by contacting the resort myself. That was how I (and ultimately CJ and TCS) even LEARNED that the week might be in jeopardy. Had I not contacted them, it's likely that nobody would have ever responded to the reservation request... :>(

 

[rrlongwell]

... I have no idea where this will end up - I'll keep y'all posted - but I do know that if the deal doesn't close, I'll have all my money returned by TCSI. The bigger (and more pressing) issue is that two airfares have been already purchased, Jazzfest tickets bought and, as it sits, we have no place to stay

Thanks for the update: The issue, as it appears to me, is if the seller has legally retained whomever they want to represent them is a side issue (of legal significanace potientially to CJ Timeshares). The real issue is the seller of record going through with the agreed upon transfer. As an interium solution, the seller of record with the resort should be able to let you use the facility for this year. I suspect you have already tried, but this is a short term solution that I would suggest you pursue aggressively.

Just re-read your post on what the Resort said in the E-Mail. I am not defending anyone, but if he believes what he indicated, I understand his concerns. However, I am not sure he can stop an otherwise legal transfer from the owner of record to a new buyer. If he is in fact a realitor in LA, then I would assume he would know the proper proceedures in LA for dealing with his concerns on the other companies involved.

 

[Someonewhoknows]

Thanks for the update: The issue, as it appears to me, is if the seller has legally retained whomever they want to represent them is a side issue (of legal significanace potientially to CJ Timeshares). The real issue is the seller of record going through with the agreed upon transfer. As an interium solution, the seller of record with the resort should be able to let you use the facility for this year. I suspect you have already tried, but this is a short term solution that I would suggest you pursue aggressively.

Just re-read your post on what the Resort said in the E-Mail. I am not defending anyone, but if he believes what he indicated, I understand his concerns. However, I am not sure he can stop an otherwise legal transfer from the owner of record to a new buyer. If he is in fact a realitor in LA, then I would assume he would know the proper proceedures in LA for dealing with his concerns on the other companies involved.

Well, I just looked up "Timeshare Free" (http://www.timesharefree.com/Home/tabid/696/Default.aspx) and they are definitely a relief company. They ARE based in Missouri (thus Friedman's confusion), although the only real question that I believe is pertinent is: does Timeshare Free have the legal right to do whatever they want with the week once it has been "relieved" from the original owner?

According to Timeshare Free's FAQ:

Q: Who handles all the paperwork and transfer with the resort?

A: Once you have agreed to move forward with any one of our services we submit all paperwork to Timeshare Closing Services, Inc. of Orlando, FL, a licensed, bonded, underwritten and insured full service title agency to professionally handle your transfer and holding of escrow. Since being incorporated in 1999, they are the original timeshare title and escrow agency specializing in timeshare closings.

Q: How long does the entire process take?

A: From the date of your agreement with us, you will receive your closing paperwork within 7-10 business days. Once these documents are properly executed and notarized and returned to the Title Company, the Deed is sent to the County Recorder for recordation of the Deed Once the Deed is returned from the county, the recorded Deed is then forwarded to the resort along with any applicable resort transfer fees for acknowledgment of transfer. On average, the entire process takes 8-12 weeks. Please note that some transfer times may vary based on the location of your property and resort transfer requirements. Some take less time, others more, again, this is only an average.​

So I guess the big question is now whether or not the deed has in fact been recorded, right? I would have to think that CJ Timeshares and Timeshare Closing Services (who appear to be under the same umbrella) would have done their due diligence before listing the week, no?

 

[rrlongwell]

... I would have to think that CJ Timeshares and Timeshare Closing Services (who appear to be under the same umbrella) would have done their due diligence before listing the week, no?

I have not tried the on line documents for the Recorder of Deeds in the county the resort is in. But, I have seen or accessed on-line deeds in a number of Pa counties and some in the county Myrtle Beach is in. These are great sites. If I were you, I would check on-line to see of the deed to the seller is recorded and if the deed from the seller to you is recorded. If either is not recorded, then there could be a major problem with the title. Is the title is held by the orginal owner or the owner or alleged owner that sold it to you, according to the Resort Records?

P.S. for Ron, do you happen to know if the deeds for the Resort are on-line in the Recorder of Deeds office in the Parish the Resort is in?

 

[ronparise]

Its nice to have someone that knows here on tug

I would have to think that CJ Timeshares and Timeshare Closing Services (who appear to be under the same umbrella) would have done their due diligence before listing the week, no?

I would expect some due diligence, yes...but one reason you hire a title company is to finish the job,and look deeper for title problems..before completing the transfer

 

[Someonewhoknows]

Its nice to have someone that knows here on tug




I would expect some due diligence, yes...but one reason you hire a title company is to finish the job,and look deeper for title problems..before completing the transfer

And that's exactly what I'm doing right now: leaving it in the title company's hands to sort out the mess. They have a lot at stake here...let them earn their cash! :>)

 

[rrlongwell]

And that's exactly what I'm doing right now: leaving it in the title company's hands to sort out the mess. They have a lot at stake here...let them earn their cash! :>)

That explains why the Resort did not reconize you for the purposes of making a reseration. If it is being left in the hands of a title company at this point, then I would guess you do not have a recorded deed in the court house. If this is the case, it is unfortunate, but the owner of record is the enity or person that controls the week for this year. It also suggests your payment for the 2012 maintance fees is still in escrow. That, in turn, probably means the 2012 maintance fees are probably in defaut. If that is the case, then the Resort, if it is like a lot of them, probably will not grant use to the owner of record. I do not know the policies of this resort are, but it is my understanding that for usage years that are not paid for, the resort is free to do what they want with it. If this is what happened here, then my guess is the unit is already rented by the resort for this year.

You indicated in an earlier post: "and both the original timeshare ad and the escrow agreement state that I will have access to my 2012 week, as per the agreement.". I cannot help but observe this may or may not be happening. I would think a adverisment would not have this assurance unless it could be delivered on.

 

[Someonewhoknows]

That explains why the Resort did not reconize you for the purposes of making a reseration. If it is being left in the hands of a title company at this point, then I would guess you do not have a recorded deed in the court house. If this is the case, it is unfortunate, but the owner of record is the enity or person that controls the week for this year. It also suggests your payment for the 2012 maintance fees is still in escrow. That, in turn, probably means the 2012 maintance fees are probably in defaut. If that is the case, then the Resort, if it is like a lot of them, probably will not grant use to the owner of record. I do not know the policies of this resort are, but it is my understanding that for usage years that are not paid for, the resort is free to do what they want with it. If this is what happened here, then my guess is the unit is already rented by the resort for this year.

You indicated in an earlier post: "and both the original timeshare ad and the escrow agreement state that I will have access to my 2012 week, as per the agreement.". I cannot help but observe this may or may not be happening. I would think a adverisment would not have this assurance unless it could be delivered on.

Well, I guess we'll find out soon enough. I think the complication is that there are actually several parties here: a) the original owner, b) the relief company that took possession from the original owner, c) the resale company acting on behalf of the relief company, and d) me. Somehow, the closing company needs to determine what use rights / ownership (or control of them) is owned by the relief company. If those rights weren't properly transferred to the relief company (and I assume that the relief company SHOULD be registered on title?), then the original owner still owns the week.

As I've said, I have zero respect for the relief companies, but I would ASSUME that they would have ensured control of the week (either by POA or other instrument) before listing it for resale, no? I also know that developers/HOA's can refuse to honour or facilitate a transfer if they think that the relief company is just going to dump it into a LLC and walk away from it. At some point, I'm sure that Timeshare Closing Services will determine whether or not that week is in play or not...sigh.

 

[rrlongwell]

Wish you luck. Please let us know how it comes out.

 

[theo]

Catch-22...

At some point, I'm sure that Timeshare Closing Services will determine whether or not that week is in play or not...sigh.

The 2012 mf's will likely have to be paid before anyone can make a 2012 reservation --- and it sounds to me like the money for the 2012 mf's is languishing in escrow with (or en route to) TCS. TCS however, has no legal standing on which to make a reservation on anyone's behalf, being just a closing entity and not a past, present or future owner.

The current owner of record would have the legal standing to make a reservation, but we then come right back to the fact that the 2012 mf's likely need to paid first. If this was a PCC acquisition, someone certainly collected plenty enough money to get the 2012 mf bill paid and then later retrieve that amount back at closing, but it seems as though there is a pronounced "lack of initiative" at work (...or stated more accurately, not at work) here...

 

[ronparise]

The 2012 mf's will likely have to be paid before anyone can make a 2012 reservation --- and it sounds to me like the money for the 2012 mf's is languishing in escrow with (or en route to) TCS. TCS however, has no legal standing on which to make a reservation on anyone's behalf, being just a closing entity and not a past, present or future owner.

The current owner of record would have the legal standing to make a reservation, but we then come right back to the fact that the 2012 mf's likely need to paid first. If this was a PCC acquisition, someone certainly collected plenty enough money to get the 2012 mf bill paid and then later retrieve that amount back at closing, but it seems as though there is a pronounced "lack of initiative" at work (...or stated more accurately, not at work) here...

Thats not exactly true at this resort. Maintenance fees here are billed twice a year Spring and Fall..The spring bill is not yet out...Last year I had the use of my week (week 19, the week after Jazz Fest) before the fee was paid....and CJ made the reservation.....Maintenance fee are not the issue here...My experience with CJ tells me that if they advertised fees paid..they will pay them themselves if need be (it took 6 months of my bitching, but they did pay in my case)

 

[Someonewhoknows]

You all raise some excellent points - thank you! I DO know that my 2012 maintenance fees were part of the payment I made to the closing company, but it remains to be seen if "Timeshare Free" or any other entity has paid the 2012 dues yet. I think it all hinges on whether or not Jean Laffitte House will honour the original owner's "relief". I work with several HOAs, and I'm always cautioning them NOT to accept any transfers into LLCs because they're usually doomed to default at some point.

Finding an exchange (or other opportunity) is my biggest concern right now because I can wait for the ownership situation to solve itself, one way or the other. Fingers crossed!

 

[theo]

Placing my bet....

I work with several HOAs, and I'm always cautioning them NOT to accept any transfers into LLCs because they're usually doomed to default at some point.

Wise and prudent advice, but I'd be willing to bet that in this particular instance no effort has been made to prepare or record a new deed (LLC or otherwise) --- and won't be made until such time as TCS ultimately gets around to doing so, into your name, in concert with CJ Timeshares. Even more specifically, my bet is that a PCC Power of Attorney is involved here and that any and all resort records currently still reflect only the name of the person / current lawful owner who signed a PoA over to a PCC for disposal of the week. Hence your inability to make a reservation as merely "future owner (...hopefully someday soon...) to be".

Not that it matters, but that's my bet....

 

[rrlongwell]

Wise and prudent advice, but I'd be willing to bet that in this particular instance no effort has been made to prepare or record a new deed (LLC or otherwise) --- and won't be made until such time as TCS ultimately gets around to doing so, into your name, in concert with CJ Timeshares. Even more specifically, my bet is that a PCC Power of Attorney is involved here and that any and all resort records currently still reflect only the name of the person / current lawful owner who signed a PoA over to a PCC for disposal of the week. Hence your inability to make a reservation as merely "future owner (...hopefully someday soon...) to be".

Not that it matters, but that's my bet....

Only a true fool would bet against you. I may be a fool, but I will pass on the bet. Any defenders of the E-Bay resellers want to take the bet?

Maybe C.J. Timeshares will.

 

[Someonewhoknows]

Only a true fool would bet against you. I may be a fool, but I will pass on the bet. Any defenders of the E-Bay resellers want to take the bet?

Maybe C.J. Timeshares will.

I'm not betting against it either. All I know is that (putting my consumer helmet on here) SOMEONE at CJ Timeshares / Timeshare Closing Services had better come up with a use week for me for this year's Jazzfest OR be prepared to write a big check to cover two airfares, etc...

 

[theo]

Another $0.02 worth...

SOMEONE at CJ Timeshares / Timeshare Closing Services had better come up with a use week for me for this year's Jazzfest OR be prepared to write a big check to cover two airfares, etc...

Unfortunately, with all due respect, I doubt that you have much leverage on that particular point.

While most contracts in the real (i.e., non-timeshare) world include and incorporate specific timelines or specific dates for the "performance" element of the contract, ebay timeshare reseller "contracts" (...if their documents even really deserve to be elevated to that legal description at all) are notorious for the absence of same. As a result, "closing" progress and proceedings often seem to be able drag on interminably, without much (if any) substantive recourse being available to the buyer. Meanwhile, the buyer money sits idly by.

All you may be able to do in the final analysis is to pester CJ Timeshares and TCS --- and then pester them some more, operating under the theory that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". After all, they do have your money in their bank account. At some point, even these under-motivated slugs might somehow reach the conclusion that the most efficient way to stop hearing from you is to quite simply wrap it all up!.

In any event, good luck. I hope you prevail in getting these people moving; hopefully sometime soon.

 

[mdonato]

One thing I am curious on is the POA. Since CJ Timeshare is in FL they have to abide by FL law. I have been told FL has some of the toughest POA laws. They are supposed to be able to prove the person/owner they are signing for is incapacitated and have 2 signatures as witnesses. I have heard if most the transfers that have gone through said company were ever challeneged they could actually go back to the owner as the POA was not the proper POA in FL. So becareful in getting that great deal from these types of companies because the last thing on their mind seems to be following the law.
BTW--CJ Timeshares is now going by Discount Timeshares. What I dont get if they are such a great company why do they have to change their name so many times?? Hmmmm???

 

[mdonato]

You all raise some excellent points - thank you! I DO know that my 2012 maintenance fees were part of the payment I made to the closing company, but it remains to be seen if "Timeshare Free" or any other entity has paid the 2012 dues yet. I think it all hinges on whether or not Jean Laffitte House will honour the original owner's "relief". I work with several HOAs, and I'm always cautioning them NOT to accept any transfers into LLCs because they're usually doomed to default at some point.

Finding an exchange (or other opportunity) is my biggest concern right now because I can wait for the ownership situation to solve itself, one way or the other. Fingers crossed!

Do you know who the actual owner is? Have you asked the title company? Have you checked public record to see if you can figure it out? Is it a fixed wk & unit number? You may be able to try and touch base with the owner. Just a possibility. Unless the resort already owns it...Yikes!

 

[Dave H]

One thing I am curious on is the POA. Since CJ Timeshare is in FL they have to abide by FL law. I have been told FL has some of the toughest POA laws. They are supposed to be able to prove the person/owner they are signing for is incapacitated and have 2 signatures as witnesses. I have heard if most the transfers that have gone through said company were ever challeneged they could actually go back to the owner as the POA was not the proper POA in FL. So becareful in getting that great deal from these types of companies because the last thing on their mind seems to be following the law.
BTW--CJ Timeshares is now going by Discount Timeshares. What I dont get if they are such a great company why do they have to change their name so many times?? Hmmmm???

There is no requirement for proof that they are incapacitated. I can give you my POA and you can do what I could do if I were physically able to be present (note: all POA's stop when the grantor or principal dies). It does not mean I have to be incapacitated.

There are POA's that only spring into action if someone is incapacitated, but I can tell you that I hold a POA for my son who is very much NOT DISABLED and have had to use it. I am sure Uncle Sam would have told me by now if he was disabled, but the last I saw him he was walking as vertical as you can get.

Yes, POA's in Florida have to have 2 witnesses, however, that is to transfer real property. The POA must contain the same number of witnesses as the documents would normally have required that is being signed.

Out of state POA's, we can now ask for an attorney opinion in the state that the POA was drafted in as to the validity of doing whatever action that is trying to be done.

 

[mdonato]

There is no requirement for proof that they are incapacitated. I can give you my POA and you can do what I could do if I were physically able to be present (note: all POA's stop when the grantor or principal dies). It does not mean I have to be incapacitated.

There are POA's that only spring into action if someone is incapacitated, but I can tell you that I hold a POA for my son who is very much NOT DISABLED and have had to use it. I am sure Uncle Sam would have told me by now if he was disabled, but the last I saw him he was walking as vertical as you can get.

Yes, POA's in Florida have to have 2 witnesses, however, that is to transfer real property. The POA must contain the same number of witnesses as the documents would normally have required that is being signed.

Out of state POA's, we can now ask for an attorney opinion in the state that the POA was drafted in as to the validity of doing whatever action that is trying to be done.

Thanks Dave for the clarification! I will have to ask the closing agent that told me that. Great info!

 

[Someonewhoknows]

UPDATE: I really have nothing new to report yet, but it looks like I have found a 1 BD week to rent at Wyndham La Belle Maison for April 27th ($1,000), so my Jazzfest accommodation woes seem to be addressed, at least for this year. :>)

As for the purchase, I'm more than prepared to be patient in order to get this deal. A senior rep at Resort Closing services called me yesterday, and I have to say, they've been great. They've kept me updated (even if nothing is happening) and it's nice to know that the file isn't languishing in the bottom of a drawer.

I suggested to her that what we REALLY need to do is "drill down" into the deal through the various companies and connect the original seller with me. If we can somehow get Timeshare Free to get the owner to transfer title to me, we're golden. The owner will be "relieved" of his obligations (shudder), CJ will be paid their commissions, TCSI will have completed their process and I'm Festing for life. Even the developer can't grouse (too badly) because he'll now have a new owner on title. And so it goes...

 

[ronparise]

I have not tried the on line documents for the Recorder of Deeds in the county the resort is in. But, I have seen or accessed on-line deeds in a number of Pa counties and some in the county Myrtle Beach is in. These are great sites. If I were you, I would check on-line to see of the deed to the seller is recorded and if the deed from the seller to you is recorded. If either is not recorded, then there could be a major problem with the title. Is the title is held by the orginal owner or the owner or alleged owner that sold it to you, according to the Resort Records?

P.S. for Ron, do you happen to know if the deeds for the Resort are on-line in the Recorder of Deeds office in the Parish the Resort is in?

$50 set up and $100 a year

 

[JVT]

Update regarding my purchase from CJ:

After unanswered emails, I finally received a call from Iris Addison-Sanon, customer service manager. She was kind and tried to resolve the situation. She states that it was Massanutten who screwed up and not them. Question is, why didn't CJ do their due diligence and confirm the unit prior to listing it.

Of course she tried to exchange it to another TS, to CJ's benefit. I refused and she stated that she would offer a full refund.

Her manager, Edwin (I wrote down his last name on a paper at home), called me to apologize and offer a different TS or issue a refund.

Both of those calls were on Fri March 2nd. As of today, Wed, March 7th, my bank account does not reflect any refund.

They were both very nice and accommodating but that's expected in customer service so there are no bonus points for that. Opinions aside and based purely on facts, the money still has not been refunded as promised.

I don't want to call this an intentional bait and switch. But again, based on facts alone, it was.

Their attempts at "resolving" the issue at hand is still unsatisfactory.

I still can't give CJ Timeshares or TCS a satisfactory grade...I'd hate to give them an F but so far it is definitely an incomplete on the report card.

BTW...I called the County Clerk's office in Rockingham, VA where the timeshare is. They told me that there is no record of any deed in our name. I guess that's good for this timeshare that CJ screwed up on but bad bc of the other one I purchased from them that has yet to be recorded...

If CJTimeshares and TCS were any slower, they'd be going backwards...

 

[ronparise]

Regarding Customer Service

I think we need to understand that with a company like CJ we are not really their customer....we buyers are what they deliver to their customers (the timeshare relief companies and the people that want to be rid of their timeshares) And of course like any real estate broker they have to depend on their customers (the sellers) for the description of what they own...The title company is where the real due diligence is done. If they cant deliver what is in the contract, then your money will be refunded...I have no doubt....(timing is another matter)