Can't upgrade original purchase if you are a resale purchaser

[PerryM]

The scoop

One of the few reasons to buy from the developer are special deals only available to the original owner. This is one of them at OceanWatch.

My brother-in-law bought a super deal they had going on there. Basically he bought Platinum Garden View units but until his unit is built (about 3 years from purchase date) he got Ocean View at no extra charge. Additionally when his unit became available he could upgrade to an Ocean View for just the difference (I can’t remember if it was on day one or 3 years later).

This was the only difference I was aware of.

 

[Beverley]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Y-Ask,

I do not believe you are losing all that much because ... when Marriott does allow the upgrade they charge the difference between what you paid originally and the cost at the time you want to effect an upgrade. We bought all developer weeks and found that an upgrade made us lose any advantage of purchasing early in the pre construction phase. We tried this at Aruba and found that the 15,900 we paid originally would be applied, however, it would be applied to today's pricing for what we wanted. Therefore all price advantages for purchasing early were lost.

Buying resale cansave you alot of money and you should continue to search resale for a platinum plus week if that is the week you need/want. Otherwise consider resorts that do not have platinum plus. Getting July 4th week is not impossible in many places.

Good Luck.

Beverley

 

[wuv pooh]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Why do you think you should be able to buy a resale cheap and then have Marriott upgrade you? Are you asking to only pay the current selling price difference even though you purchased for less than the current selling price?

I am with Marriott on this one. They should not upgrade resale buyers or they disadvantage developer purchasers. They should allow resale buyers to participate in the equity exchange program on an equal basis.

 

[Y-ASK]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Why do you think you should be able to buy a resale cheap

Last time I checked it appeared that I live in a country that supports a free market where the price I pay for property is between the seller and the buyer. If supply and demand are observed the property will sell very quickly if reasonable priced or not at all if over priced.

and then have Marriott upgrade you?

Yes, because IMO all owners should be treated equally whether they be the primary or secondary so that the value of the property is not de-valued as a result of favortism. I understand perfectly the reason why the resort would not offer the same bonus extras to a secondary owner but being able to upgrade should not be considered an extra.

Are you asking to only pay the current selling price difference even though you purchased for less than the current selling price?

Absolutely! You are 100% correct! That is exactly what I am saying. IMO if you purchase early and get a great discount before the property is built and then the asking price increases over the next couple of years, the early purchased property value should then also increase. So if you want to upgrade your property whether you are a primary or secondary owner the property should be valued the same as a new purchase to the Resort builder and the increase for an upgrade calculated accordingly.

I am with Marriott on this one. They should not upgrade resale buyers or they disadvantage developer purchasers. They should allow resale buyers to participate in the equity exchange program on an equal basis.

Everyone has the right to their opinion and I respect your right but disagree. It is up to the developer to ensure they offer value to their offerings by including incentives and making sure the resort is maintained and keep in perfect condition. If the developer is going to de-value the property by treating primary and secondary owners differently how can they possible talk about the value of the property after the purchase with a straight face?

Y-ASK

 

[armlem2]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

I have to wonder what would happen if Marriott did what you wanted, Y-ASK. I can see many of us that bought resale, like it did at Harbor Point and Manor Club ask Marriott to give me the current resale value of my unit and I will buy a Maui OF or a Grand Ocean OF. I am sure they would end up with alot of Manor Club and Harbor Point units. Then what would they do, sell them at the price the gave me credit for or a loss. That would make no sense, I'm sorry.

Hell I was pleased to find in my conversations that Marriott was willing to give me credit for what I paid on either one toward a new unit somewhere. I was looking at several and they were willing to give me credit, whihc I thought was very reasaonable especially the Harbor Point, which they didn't even build and don't assign points too.

 

[timeos2]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Since the underlying information changed on this thread my opinion has also shifted. When I thought the OP was speaking about a one time, one stay ability to upgrade to a better unit with a fee involved I remain convinced that how you may have purchased the ownership does not matter. All owners must be treated the same.

But when you are talking about "trading in" an existing ownership toward a new one the developer (seller) has every right to create the rules anyway they desire. Now I'm not saying anyone should buy if they want more from a resale buyer than a retail buyer but they have a perfect right to make that part of the offer. I'd go so far as to question why would anyone buy an "upgrade" at developer pricing when you could save by simply buying the week you desire to upgrade to cheaper on resale and sell your old week outright. Don't involve the sales weasels at all in that case.

Anyway it now sounds like the seller isn't doing anything wrong in this case. I wouldn't deal with anyone that twists things and tries to devalue ownership but thats just me.

 

[Y-ASK]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

I have to wonder what would happen if Marriott did what you wanted, Y-ASK. I can see many of us that bought resale, like it did at Harbor Point and Manor Club ask Marriott to give me the current resale value of my unit and I will buy a Maui OF or a Grand Ocean OF.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I meant you could purchase at one resort and then upgrade to another completely different resort, but that is not what I meant. I'm talking specifically about upgrading your purchased unit at one resort, and since you can only upgrade at a resort that has not been sold out, it would have to be a fairly new resort. Once the resort were sold out the only way you could upgrade would be to sell and then purchase a re-sale.

Y-ASK

 

[armlem2]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

True but the math is the same. You are asking the developer to allow people to buy resale and trade it in for another unit and get current prices for credit. Heck they are giving people that bought from them and upgrading a break, rather than telling them no way Jose, go sell your unit on the market and I'll sell you the other one, this isn't the car business. I can see them saying no to that if you want motre than you paid. What difference does it make what resort you bought from, you are asking something for nothing. I would be willing to bet they would allow you to what you paid for it, once their inventory of what your selling/trading is low enough. They are in this to make money and sell their inventory.

 

[Y-ASK]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

I'd go so far as to question why would anyone buy an "upgrade" at developer pricing when you could save by simply buying the week you desire to upgrade to cheaper on resale and sell your old week outright.

Well you may not be able to find a re-sale that has the upgrade you want. Also if you purchased your property as a re-sale and can't find exactly what you want so you had to settle with less you might want to have the upgrade option available. In addition if you purchased early with what you could afford at the time and then came into some money you might want to upgrade. Keep in mind for this particular resort there are not that many re-sales available so your options are very limited so saying that you'd just sell and then re-purchase is probably more wishful thinking. Your only option may be to purchase thru the developer.

Anyway it now sounds like the seller isn't doing anything wrong in this case. I wouldn't deal with anyone that twists things and tries to devalue ownership but thats just me.

I hope you don't think that I am trying to "twists things around". I don't think that is what you are saying but I'm not sure. I thought I've been pretty clear with everything that I've written but that is probably because I'm reading through with my own eyes. As far as whether the seller/developer is doing anything "wrong". It's their policy and whether it is wrong or right remains to be seen. I feel it is wrong to treat re-sale buyers differently and that fact reduces my desire to purchase into the program. The issue is probably very much insignficant to most folks in the long run but then what's the fun of a dull forum?

Y-ASK

 

[Y-ASK]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

True but the math is the same. You are asking the developer to allow people to buy resale and trade it in for another unit and get current prices for credit.

I can kind of see your point if the difference between the current price and the orginal purchase price has increased signficantly.

Heck they are giving people that bought from them and upgrading a break, rather than telling them no way Jose, go sell your unit on the market and I'll sell you the other one, this isn't the car business.

I don't think that after the sale they should distigush between primary and secondary owners that's all. You're right this not a car business but it is a real estate business or at least they pretend it to be.

They are in this to make money and sell their inventory.

I'm pretty sure they can still make plenty of money and still be fair and equal to all owners whether they be primary or secondary.

Y-ASK

 

[poppop]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

As a long time Marriott owner who also owns Non-Marriott , I can say that most of us bought from Marriott for their stability (among other things) . One way they obtained that stability is treating the business like a home developer ( what home developer takes back a house to sell you a new one?) not a car dealer. Others are always taking back weeks to get owners to upgrade - treating the weeks like used cars. This gets them into trouble - Sunterra was one of the biggest at it and now they are in deep, deep trouble. If you want a certain season and view , buy it - and don't take Marriotts financing - pay cash - they will sell it to you at no price increase - BTW - you will want that point option sooner or later - I have done some amazing things with my points.

 

[Y-ASK]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

As a long time Marriott owner who also owns Non-Marriott , I can say that most of us bought from Marriott for their stability (among other things) . One way they obtained that stability is treating the business like a home developer ( what home developer takes back a house to sell you a new one?) not a car dealer. Others are always taking back weeks to get owners to upgrade - treating the weeks like used cars. This gets them into trouble - Sunterra was one of the biggest at it and now they are in deep, deep trouble. If you want a certain season and view , buy it - and don't take Marriotts financing - pay cash - they will sell it to you at no price increase - BTW - you will want that point option sooner or later - I have done some amazing things with my points.

Yeah like I said this whole issue is pretty insignficant but it does make for some interesting discusion and speaking of that can you expand more on what you know about Sunterra and the troubles they are having? My father owns a 1 Bdr with them in AZ. Also tell me why I would want 100,000 Marriott reward points? Do you get them every year like at the Disney Vacation Club or is it a one time thing and once you use them up they're gone? What would you use them for?

Y-ASK

 

[taffy19]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Sunterra news article:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Jul-14-Fri-2006/business/8482749.html

 

[xujoe]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Since the underlying information changed on this thread my opinion has also shifted. When I thought the OP was speaking about a one time, one stay ability to upgrade to a better unit with a fee involved I remain convinced that how you may have purchased the ownership does not matter. All owners must be treated the same.

But when you are talking about "trading in" an existing ownership toward a new one the developer (seller) has every right to create the rules anyway they desire. Now I'm not saying anyone should buy if they want more from a resale buyer than a retail buyer but they have a perfect right to make that part of the offer. I'd go so far as to question why would anyone buy an "upgrade" at developer pricing when you could save by simply buying the week you desire to upgrade to cheaper on resale and sell your old week outright. Don't involve the sales weasels at all in that case.

Anyway it now sounds like the seller isn't doing anything wrong in this case. I wouldn't deal with anyone that twists things and tries to devalue ownership but thats just me.

Iunderstood perfectly well from the get go what he was talking about. It would seem perfectly logical to allow one to trade in their unit on a "bigger and better unit". Of course at a price that makes sense to the developer. Why should various rights of ownership be stripped away to some future owner you sell to. It always ticked me off when I would trade in my nice unit to RCI and get someplace and find that certain amenities were for owners only. When I deposited my week, as far as I knew all rights went with it. Therefore I would expect all rights coming back in return with what I receive. I am with the original poster on this 100%. In fact I just recently did the exact same thing. I "upgraded" my Morritts Tortuga Club unit to their sister resort, the newer and nicer Morritts Grand. Morritts was happy to do that, and I was happy to do it as well. Although I bought from developer (long before the internet and a wide resale market), this question never came up. But Others at that resort have done it via resale. As one other poster said, they just get to make the profit on that unit one more time. I was given credit for what I paid. Since I bought early, the price has gone up, and sure, I would have liked to have been given credit for current value, but then I realize they must cover the selling cost. To the original poster, I would suggest to be patient and just wait until you see exactly what you want. But remember you are only talking about one week out of the year, so there are not going to be very many available.

P. S. I will be at Oceanwatch in 10 days for a preview package. I do not inten to buy, as it is out of my budget right now, and I do not need another week, but if I were to buy, that would be the oneI go for.

 

[KathyPet]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

I am so confused here so would someone pls clarify for me. Is the OP saying that they bought a Marriott on the resale market say Gold time at a certain resort and paid say $15000 for it resale. Let us say that Marriott was selling those units for 23,000 at the same time for the Gold season. Now it is 4 years later and Marriott is now selling Gold for 28,000 and platinum for 32,000. OP wants to upgrade from GOld to platinum does OP want Marriott to buy his unit from him at the now going price of 28,000 and allow him to purchase the platinum for 32,000 and get the rewards pint option now. Is that what the OP is saying??? Somebody splain this to me please.

 

[myip]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

I am so confused here so would someone pls clarify for me. Is the OP saying that they bought a Marriott on the resale market say Gold time at a certain resort and paid say $15000 for it resale. Let us say that Marriott was selling those units for 23,000 at the same time for the Gold season. Now it is 4 years later and Marriott is now selling Gold for 28,000 and platinum for 32,000. OP wants to upgrade from GOld to platinum does OP want Marriott to buy his unit from him at the now going price of 28,000 and allow him to purchase the platinum for 32,000 and get the rewards pint option now. Is that what the OP is saying??? Somebody splain this to me please.

Yes, I believe that is what OP is saying. I don't know about Marriott, but Hilton will "Upgrade" your unit. In your example, you only have to $4000.

 

[poppop]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Go to Http://marriott.com/ and then to Marriott Rewards for explanation of pts use. Look especially for travel packages The pts you get for weeks are the same as those awarded for hotel stays. At my older resorts you can trade your week in any year, many newer resorts only allow for every other year. I have gone to Hawaii and Caribbean with airfare included and staying in Marriott hotels, took a cruise, even went to Africa , all using pts from my Marriott timeshares.

 

[Y-ASK]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Is that what the OP is saying?

I don't know why don't you ask the OP .

1st I have not purchased anything yet. So everything at this point is hypothetical. Let's see if I can explain with an example. Someone other than myself purchases a GardenView unit at resort Pluto eight months ago. They purchase the property in the Gold Season. Resort Pluto is a 2-3 year old resort with plenty of new units to purchase and more buildings that need to be built. Purchase price at the time is $22,000. Eight months later something happens and they have to sell. Next year's price plan comes into affect and for the same exact Gardenview unit the price is now $23,000.00. So now the seller puts the property on the market and is asking $20,000.00. Potential Buyer comes along, stays on site, takes the tour, and becomes interested. Buyer starts to research (because while the resort is entitled to make a buck, the buyer is also entitled to save a buck) and finds that there are very few re-sales on the market and the closest match to what they are looking for is this Gardenview for $20,000.00. They really want OceanSide or OceanView so they will be closer to the beach so they start to research if there is an option to upgrade from a GardenView to an OceanSide keeping the same Gold season. They find out from the developer who they spoke to while staying at the resort "why yes there is that option available for a reasonable fee". Super, the buyer plans to purchase the resale and then "for a reasonable fee" they will upgrade to the OceanSide unit. Oh but wait the potential Buyer finds out from the developer that the upgrade option provided by the developer is only available to the primary owner, the person who purchased the property from the developer. The secondary owner cannot upgrade the property only the primary can and that is my problem with this whole deal.

Now to take this to the conclusion you are looking for. Now let's say that in the 2007 price plan for resort Pluto the price for the OceanSide unit with a Gold season is $29,000.00. Remember that the new price for the GardenView unit is now $23,000.00 and the primary buyer paid $22,000.00 and sold for $20,000.00. So in the new price plan for the developer the difference between an OceanSide and a GardenView is $6,000.00. In my opinion if the value of the property increases from price plan to price plan so should the value of a previously purchased unit. I know, wishful thinking. After all, as someone else pointed out, the developer is in this to make money. If we are all on the same page now it is my opinion that the reasonable upgrade price would be $6,000.00 (difference between the GardenView and the OceanSide in the new 2007 price plan) plus maybe a $200.00 transaction fee no matter whether you purchased under an older price plan or you purchased a re-sale. And that either way if you (the Developer) are going to offer the option to upgrade I feel that you should offer it to both the primary and the secondary owners while the resort has units available to upgrade to.

My example is for one resort and one resort only. No upgrades to a different resort or anything like that.

Y-ASK

And no I would not expect the "Rewards Point" incentive as a secondary buyer as I have said in an earlier post. Please read through all my post and you will see that the issue I take issue with is the idea that the developer is treating the primary owner differently than the secondary owner.

 

[wuv pooh]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

I don't know why don't you ask the OP .

And no I would not expect the "Rewards Point" incentive as a secondary buyer as I have said in an earlier post. Please read through all my post and you will see that the issue I take issue with is the idea that the developer is treating the primary owner differently than the secondary owner.

I think this is your problem. Marriott does not offer this option to ANY owner that I am aware of. The only thing that comes close is that you can lock in the price for an EOY today and buy it a year from now. They also have an equity turn in where they will give you a certain credit for your unit if you buy another one, but it is no where near what you paid. When I checked they offered me only $4k for a unit that I paid about $9k and was currently selling for $15k.

If they have a new plan for "buyers remorse" I would be interested in hearing more about it. I know some developers will take more money from people who are dissatisfied to "upgrade" their purchase, but I do not believe Marriott allows this. YMMV.

 

[Y-ASK]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

I think this is your problem. Marriott does not offer this option to ANY owner that I am aware of.

Well that is what I was told by the developer at Marriott's OceanWatch, but unless someone who bought from the developer calls and ask what their options and price are, there's no way of knowing for sure.

I guess I've beat this horse till it's dead and anything else I might say would just be a repeated statement. If anyone needs clarification they can just re-read my earlier post which I thought were pretty clear.

Y-ASK

 

[KathyPet]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

I cannot speak to trading in your current season at your resort to trade for a higher level season but I certainly have never heard of such a capability. When I attend the oweners meeting at Grand Ocean in Sept I will ask about whether Marriott allows even owners who purchased from Marriott to do that. However I can speak to the trade in pogram because we executed one of these. We owned at Kauai Beach Club (1 Bedroom oceanfront). We purchased it in 1997. I caannot recall the detail but I think we paid 16,500 for it. We had always wanted to own at Grand Ocean and while on a trade there in 2003 we toured Barony Beach. We indicated to the salesperson that we already owned at Manor Club and at Kauai and were not wanting to purchase a third unit. THey came up with the following proposal. They would give us the full going price for the Kauai unit (I think it had risen to 21,000 by that time). We would trade in the Kauai unit for that going price towards TWO Gold time units (1 at Barony and 1 at Grand Ocean) THe reason we had to buy two was that you had to spend a minimum of 25,000 over and above the trade in of your existing units on the new purchase. Buying Grand Ocean by itself did not meet the $25,000 price so we ended up spending a lot more.
Looking back on it it retrospect it was a bad thing to do. We then had three weeks to deal with. We have never been able to use three weeks in a year so we end up trying to rent one or more of the weeks. I really only wanted 1 GOld week at Grand Ocean and now we own three weeks that I never really wanted to start with . Hubby thinks this is all great but he has never expressed any interest in trying to manage these weeks and it is a royal pain. THis year our Barony Beach did not rent through Marriott and we ended up banking it with II. We rented Manor Club and will be using Grand Ocean in September. Next year all 3 will be traded for points.

 

[turkel]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

I say wait for the unit you really want resale or don't wait and buy from Marriott direct. Your talking about a $3000 difference. I bought resale. Do I expect Marriott to give me a credit of $11000 toward an upgrade, no I don't. I bought gold season resale for $11000 less than the going rate. In hind site I wish I had bought platinum. The difference btw. Marriott gold and plat at my resort in about $7000 would I upgrade through Marriott no why. I could have bought plat for $4000 more resale, my mistake. Maybe someday I'll buy a plat and sell my gold but I doubt my hubby would have let me originally I had to seriously beg beg beg to get what I got, now he is stuck and I am happy and so are the kids. He is forced to vacation 2 wks a year and have a great time. Pam

 

[Bill4728]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Timeshare salesmen tell you things which sound important, but in truth, are a reasons NOT TO BUY! Being able to upgrade your unit is one of these.

You, as the orginial buyer have already paid way too much for your unit. Being allowed to upgrade is like saying "you paid too much for this unit and if a couple years from now, you want a different unit, I'll let you pay way too much again."

If you buy from the developer (well that's something many of us did) don't come here and expect us to tell to you that upgrading thru the developer is a good thing and something which we, as resell buyers, should be upset that we're not going to be allowed to do. Upgrading thru the developer is NOT a good thing and something which just enriches the developer more.

As my old pappy said "Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me!" LOL

 

[wsrobinson]

Re: Can't upgrade if you are a resale purchaser

Perhaps I can clarify as i bought a resort (Surf Watch) which is still in the development phase. I bought a 3 bedroom Silver GV unit. I then changed my mind and upgraded (because the contract had not been completed and they still had the inventory on hand) to a 3 bd Silver Oceanside. Then I rethought my decision again and bought a 3 bd Gold GV week. Each time I was supposed to pay $175 fee for the trouble I was causing the Closing Dept at Marriott. Then, to finally cement the deal I changed my mind again to Platinum 2 BD Oceanside. I ended up happy with my decision and with the season I chose and never paid the $175 for any of the upgrades. All of the upgrades went without incident and occured within a 3 week period. This is, I think what Y-ASK was talking about with the term "upgrades". If the owner he would be purchasing from has already closed the upgrade option may not even be available. Hope this adds some clarity.

 

[KathyPet]

Yes but there are two big differences here. #1 you were buying from the developer and paying the full developer price for each unit as you upgraded up the food chain. In addition you were doing these changes in a very short period prior to your original settlement even occurring. What the OP wants is for Marriott to allow him to trade in his gold week which he purchased resale for far less than the developer's prices a and have Marriott allow him the full current Marriott retail price of that unit towards upgrading his unit to a platinum week at that same resort which he would then pay Marriott full retail price for. THere is no way Marriott is going to do that. WHy should they take a lesser week (gold) which are harder to sell in trade and allow him to upgrade to platinum and give him full trade in price for a lesser season week which they have to resell. In addition I agree with the poster who said that if everyone caught on to that possibility than why would anyone ever buy from Marriott. We would all buy a resale week cheap and then tell Marriott we wanted full retail value trade in for it to trade up to a higher level season. What a deal!