Can I get my money back?

[sjuhawk_jd]

I am looking of some advice and probably some grief will come my way (given the fact that it is my mistake).

About 10 days ago, I rented a reservation for last week of June 2012 dates listed on redweek.com. Then I paid half of the rent via paypal (credit card) after the owner sent me an invoice, with dates of the rental, resort name, and the fact that this amount was non-refundable. Balance of 50% is due last week of April, 2012, at which time the owner will get me a guest certificate. 2 days after paying, I realized that the rental was listed as for 4 nights only and I mistakenly read it for "7 nights" Totally my mistake. The listing was still active on Redweek and that is how I caught my mistake. I approached the owner saying no time has been lost in this transaction, so give me the refund since this was honest mistake. He is refusing to give any refund. Total rental was $1200. I rent out my own weeks, but always 7 nights, so this just slipped through the cracks as I failed to notice the dates amounted to 4 nights only.

I do not want this 4 night reservation, so what should I do to get my money back (if I can get it back)? I am willing to give him a small cancellation fee for his headache. His listing is still active on Redweek.

 

[ampaholic]

If I were you I would read this thread:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151494

Then I would find out if the rentor is a TUG member.

 

[sjuhawk_jd]

If I were you I would read this thread:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151494

Then I would find out if the rentor is a TUG member.

Thanks. I was reading the thread that you suggested when it was active. None of that scenario apply here. The owner is not a TUG member.

 

[MOXJO7282]

The owner is being unreasonable. He has plenty of time to re-rent. If someone rents from me and I have 4 months to rent I will refund 100%. If within 90 days I tell them if I can re-rent then they will also get a full refund. If someone rents for less than what was agreed to with original, I'll subtract the difference and send them the balance. So it I rent for $3k and the can only rent for $2800, I'll withhold the $200 to make me whole.

My thing I if I removed my listing I potentially lost renters during that time and I should be made whole.

I have had to refund a few times, once within a week and I gave 100%. Another time it was 3 months after payment and only 80 days before check-in. I told them about my refund policy and luckily I rented for same and they received full refund.

A third time a renter cancelled less tha a week. I tried to re-rent but couldn't in such short notice, so I didn't offer a refund. I did however deposit the week and although I couldn't get them back to Maui, I did get them a trip to Newport Coast 6 months later via a last minute exchange. They ended up being satisfied.

 

[DeniseM]

First of all - You said "the owner will get you a guest certificate," is this an exchange that you are renting?

2ndly - did you ask for the rental terms before you sent the deposit?

If I was the owner, my response would be:

"I'm sorry, but per your email dated Oct.1, 2011, you agreed to my "no cancellations - no refunds" policy before you sent the deposit. I will continue to advertise this week and if I can rent it to someone else for full price, you will receive a refund minus $100 for my time, trouble, and loss other fees."

 

[frenchieinme]

This thread here is making a very good case as to why everything dealing with a rental SHOULD be in writing. Hence when an honest mistake or just a plain non-mea culpa mistake is made, one only needs to go to the written refund policy in order to find out if a refund is due. When it comes to $$$ many people say what they would do but when in actuality it involves refunding $$$, I have found some nice folks suddenly are not so nice anymore. I tell people if you feel that way put it in writing. My granfather used to say GOOD PAPERS MAKE FOR GOOD FRIENDSHIPS!

frenchieinme

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

First of all - You said "the owner will get you a guest certificate," is this an exchange that you are renting?

2ndly - did you ask for the rental terms before you sent the deposit?

If I was the owner, my response would be:

"I'm sorry, but per your email dated Oct.1, 2011, you agreed to my "no cancellations - no refunds" policy before you sent the deposit. I will continue to advertise this week and if I can rent it to someone else for full price, you will receive a refund minus $100 for my time, trouble, and loss other fees."

That's what my position would be as well.

And it wouldn't make any difference if the other person was a TUGger or not.

 

[grgs]

If I was the owner, my response would be:

"I'm sorry, but per your email dated Oct.1, 2011, you agreed to my "no cancellations - no refunds" policy before you sent the deposit. I will continue to advertise this week and if I can rent it to someone else for full price, you will receive a refund minus $100 for my time, trouble, and loss other fees."

I agree that this is a reasonable response, too. Technically, they don't even have to do this. However, the original renter is unlikely to make the final payment, and re-renting is the best option for all involved.

If I was the OP, I would politely request this compromise.

Glorian

 

[sjuhawk_jd]

First of all - You said "the owner will get you a guest certificate," is this an exchange that you are renting?

2ndly - did you ask for the rental terms before you sent the deposit?

If I was the owner, my response would be:

"I'm sorry, but per your email dated Oct.1, 2011, you agreed to my "no cancellations - no refunds" policy before you sent the deposit. I will continue to advertise this week and if I can rent it to someone else for full price, you will receive a refund minus $100 for my time, trouble, and loss other fees."

Guest certificate does not mean "Exchange" which many of us here on TUG are very quick to conclude. Marriott, Wyndham, Starwood, Hilton, Grand Pacific Resorts all issue some type of guest certificate/guest confirmation for their owners. No, this is not an exchange.

 

[sjuhawk_jd]

The owner is being unreasonable. He has plenty of time to re-rent. If someone rents from me and I have 4 months to rent I will refund 100%. If within 90 days I tell them if I can re-rent then they will also get a full refund. If someone rents for less than what was agreed to with original, I'll subtract the difference and send them the balance. So it I rent for $3k and the can only rent for $2800, I'll withhold the $200 to make me whole.

My thing I if I removed my listing I potentially lost renters during that time and I should be made whole.

I have had to refund a few times, once within a week and I gave 100%. Another time it was 3 months after payment and only 80 days before check-in. I told them about my refund policy and luckily I rented for same and they received full refund.

A third time a renter cancelled less tha a week. I tried to re-rent but couldn't in such short notice, so I didn't offer a refund. I did however deposit the week and although I couldn't get them back to Maui, I did get them a trip to Newport Coast 6 months later via a last minute exchange. They ended up being satisfied.

I rent out few weeks each year, all monies paid to me are non-refundable, but I have given refunds based on situations (sometimes minus some headache fee, sometimes only 60 days before check in). Thanks "MOXJO7282" for your comments. This reservation is not starting for another 8.5 months!!!

 

[sjuhawk_jd]

This thread here is making a very good case as to why everything dealing with a rental SHOULD be in writing. Hence when an honest mistake or just a plain non-mea culpa mistake is made, one only needs to go to the written refund policy in order to find out if a refund is due. When it comes to $$$ many people say what they would do but when in actuality it involves refunding $$$, I have found some nice folks suddenly are not so nice anymore. I tell people if you feel that way put it in writing. My granfather used to say GOOD PAPERS MAKE FOR GOOD FRIENDSHIPS!

frenchieinme

Everything was in writing. Yes, some folks are not nice anymore even when there is nothing at stake.

 

[BevL]

First of all - You said "the owner will get you a guest certificate," is this an exchange that you are renting?

2ndly - did you ask for the rental terms before you sent the deposit?

If I was the owner, my response would be:

"I'm sorry, but per your email dated Oct.1, 2011, you agreed to my "no cancellations - no refunds" policy before you sent the deposit. I will continue to advertise this week and if I can rent it to someone else for full price, you will receive a refund minus $100 for my time, trouble, and loss other fees."

Ditto. And if I had made the mistake, I'd be politely asking the owner for this accommodation.

 

[ampaholic]

1. It seems only fair that if he is refusing to refund your deposit he should dismantle the listing on Redweek and elsewhere - after all from his perspective it is "rented". I would insist on this as it is leverage to give him incentive to refund.

2. I would investigate as to weather you have any recourse with Redweek and/or with the local courts where he lives or where you live.

Just because "no refunds" is his policy doesn't mean it's the law.

3. You can file a PayPal claim - if you are comfortable with the moral greyness of that - I would think twice about mentioning it here if you do.

That said, I am looking forward to knowing how this plays out - I think it could be educational for us all here (for good or ill) - please let us know how it works out.

 

[am1]

What are the 4 nights worth? Is it likely he can rent out the 4 nights for the price you paid?

Not sure how the courts would be any remedy. You would have to file in small claims court in his area?

It is possible he has more than one reservation those dates at the resort.

Maybe he can get the week for you for a fair increase in price.

I would try your best in asking for a refund but if they are unwilling to do that then I would enjoy the 4 days.

 

[sjuhawk_jd]

1. It seems only fair that if he is refusing to refund your deposit he should dismantle the listing on Redweek and elsewhere - after all from his perspective it is "rented". I would insist on this as it is leverage to give him incentive to refund...

For all I know, owner may be renting this reservation to multiple parties (by keeping redweek listing alive) and collecting 50% multiple times. I did call the resort and the owner only has 1 reservation for those dates.

 

[BevL]

I'm kind of curious if you have suggested to him that he attempt to re-rent the week or if the only discussion has been, "I'd like my money back." "No."

As I read it, he hadn't taken his ad down two days after you paid. Then you asked for a refund and he still hasn't taken the ad off Redweek. I think I have that right.

Two days after receiving payment isn't very long. Maybe he works long hours. Maybe he just didn't around to it. Seems a bit of a leap to suggest that the owner might be scamming by re-renting multiple times. Well, perhaps better to say not a leap that would even cross my mind given the circumstances.

If it were me, I'd be thinking that you're not going to pay the other 50 percent and I'd better leave it up there to make sure I'm going to get my full rental price. That being said, if I did get another renter, I'd be refunding your money, less a fee.

OTOH, you may have run into one of those folks who thinks, "Too bad, so sad," for you and is doing a happy dance at his windfall.

Again, you asked for TUG community thoughts - just weighing in.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Regarding the owner not taking down the ad -

When I list a rental the ad stays up until I receive the full amount of the rental from a renter. The ad comes down only when I have full payment in hand.

Until payment in full is received the person is only "holding" the reservation. If someone comes along who is willing to pay in full, the person who has made a downpayment gets the choice of either paying in full to complete the reservation or getting a full refund of money.

 

[sjuhawk_jd]

Regarding the owner not taking down the ad -

When I list a rental the ad stays up until I receive the full amount of the rental from a renter. The ad comes down only when I have full payment in hand.

Until payment in full is received the person is only "holding" the reservation. If someone comes along who is willing to pay in full, the person who has made a downpayment gets the choice of either paying in full to complete the reservation or getting a full refund of money.

Above is not applicable in this situation as the owner only wanted 50% now and 50% 60 days before check in date.

 

[Talent312]

Non-refundable deposits are fairly common in commerce and it its not unreasonable for the owner to stick to his guns and keep the deposit as "liquidated damages," without any relation to actual loss. I'd say that the OP is darn lucky that he hadn't paid the full amount.

However, I've seen nothing that keeps the renter from subletting to a 3rd party. He may be stuck with his deposit, but if the renter can find someone to take it off his hand for something close to original terms, the owner may be stuck with that.

 

[Bee]

Try asking the owner if he would allow you to re-rent the four days. The last time I rented a timeshare, I asked the owner if something unforseen happens would you allow me to re-rent the unit at the price I paid. He was agreeable. We did stay in the unit, but we were planning pretty far out so I wanted the insurance.

There is no law requiring the deposit to be refunded. Whatever the agreement states applies to both parties.

Bee

 

[foreverloves]

Boy this thread looks familiar...

but see, my answer (sadly) is to side with the owner. Why? Because sorry to say, it was in writing (and discussed) that the deposit wasn't refundable. The owner would be entitled to retain the deposit for (as someone else mentioned) "liquidated damages". And I realize that screws you up and it was an honest mistake.

The "nice" thing to do would be for the owner to try and find a new renter and, if possible, refund some of your money. But he's not required to - because unfortunately, you agreed that you would provide a non-refundable deposit. And yes, that sadly means that he can continue to advertise it, AND keep your money. It's no different than me offering to rent an apartment to someone; they back out and I get to keep their cash AND try to rent the same place to someone else (because we had agreements like this in place)

You may not be successful pursuing this with your credit card company if the owner has a copy of the executed agreement and provides it. The only owners who lose disputes with credit card companies are ones that try to keep entire deposits and then can't provide a shred of evidence anywhere that it was ever intended not to be refundable, and can't provide a resort confirmation in the renter's name.

If it was me, I'd try to re-rent it like Denise said and if I got a renter, I'd keep a few bucks for my trouble and send back the rest.

Unfortunately, the owner doesn't have to do that; not in a case where you sent money as part of an agreement that said the money you were sending was not refundable under any circumstances. It stinks, but it's true.

I give you credit for posting this question though, and I'm sorry you may have lost your money because of an honest mistake. I know sort of how that feels, and it's not fun. Rental terms and rental agreements tend to strongly favor the owners and not the renters, so it's something to consider if you ever rent again. Good luck working it out with the owner if you can.

 

[california-bighorn]

It appears you are being totally honest that it was your oversight on the rental being 4 days instead of 7. This misunderstanding would not be difficult to make since the norm, pretty much the expectation and the great majority of timeshare rentals are for 7 days. Unless the rental period for 4 days was somehow pointed out in red or larger font, I think you might have a case. I would screen print a few pages from Redweek documenting that almost all rentals are 7 days and that was what you expected and forward those to the credit card dispute section and to the timeshare owner. Also point out you are offering a cancellation fee and that the owner still has 8+ months to find another renter. You are not being dishonest by doing that. Also, if the timeshare owner thinks the credit card company is considering your request, he may be more willing to negotiate. Anyway, good luck in resolving this.

 

[Paumavista]

2 Days / 8 Months!!

Come on.......As an owner I want happy renters (I depend on word of mouth too) and frankly with 8 months and my renter identifying the mistake within a few days of making payment I would refund and hope to rent with them again.

The mistake was identified QUICKLY and brought to my attention immediately; I have lost nothing since I didn't even take the add down, and I still have 8 months to secure a happy renter.

As a landlord (of sorts) I want successful rentals...ie a good price, happy renters, and no problems.

Sooooo if you rented from me I'd let you go with a request you keep in touch, tell your friends at TUG & others who may be looking to rent. Unfortunately, it wasn't me....so you may have learned an expensive lesson. Sorry.
Judy

 

[JanT]

Amen to that! It is exactly what I would do as well. The guy is being a rear-end. The legalities of it are that he is within his rights to keep the money but seriously, only a complete rear-end with 8 months to secure another renter would keep the money, ESPECIALLY since it was within a few days when you caught the mistake.

I just shake my head at the greediness and hatefulness of so many people today. I remember my mom often saying, "What's the world coming to?" when I was growing up. I used to wonder why she said that. As I've gotten older and the world is even crazier, now I know what she was talking about.

Sorry SJU that you had to experience first hand just how greedy some people can be.

Jan

Come on.......As an owner I want happy renters (I depend on word of mouth too) and frankly with 8 months and my renter identifying the mistake within a few days of making payment I would refund and hope to rent with them again.

The mistake was identified QUICKLY and brought to my attention immediately; I have lost nothing since I didn't even take the add down, and I still have 8 months to secure a happy renter.

As a landlord (of sorts) I want successful rentals...ie a good price, happy renters, and no problems.

Sooooo if you rented from me I'd let you go with a request you keep in touch, tell your friends at TUG & others who may be looking to rent. Unfortunately, it wasn't me....so you may have learned an expensive lesson. Sorry.
Judy

 

[bogey21]

Totally my mistake......I am willing to give him a small cancellation fee for his headache.

The issue is not what you are "willing" to do. It is what renter is "willing" to do. If I had made this mistake, I would have told the renter how stupid I felt and that if he could rent the Week to someone else, whatever consideration he could show me would be appreciated and acceptable to me.

George