Feedback please! (bad rental?)

foreverloves · Jul 18, 2011

All right. Here's the story. And let me say, we have never rented privately before.

My husband & I were searching for a rental at our resort in Hilton Head for an earlier week than our scheduled week due to a potential conflict that might have prevented us from going to HHI during our booked week. We found an owner, who advertised here on TUG and also on Redweek, who was offering a week with a check in date of 7/24 - which worked almost perfectly for us. We exchanged several emails and telephone numbers. My husband moved his vacation days, etc. Per Redweek's rental guidelines, we agreed to send her 50% of the agreed-upon price ($400). She sent us a copy of her confirmed reservation and we agreed that we would send the balance when she transferred the reservation into our name. I paid the $400 via paypal using my Paypal credit card. I realized later that the user was not a verified user, but I'd already sent the money.

On Friday morning, I broke my foot (long story) and ended up in the ER and now have a wonderful cast on for at least 4 weeks. As soon as it happened, we knew we could not complete the rental. I had my husband (since I was hopped up on pain meds at the time) email her to explain our situation. 24 hours later, no response (and she was responding within 24 hours before this). On Saturday night, I emailed her again, myself, to further explain and to inquire how we could effectuate a refund of some kind. No response. This person claims to be overseas right now and while I do have her phone number, it is a cell number and it goes right to voicemail.

The important things are:

1. I signed nothing.
2. She said nothing in her email communications about any cancellation fee or anything like that.
3. I have not heard from her since Friday morning at about 7 AM.
4. To my knowledge, she did not change the reservation into our name, or did anything else with it. Her "rental" was "off the market" for 24 hours or less.

It is possible that I will hear from her early this week, but I am concerned I may not. In the interim, I am out $400. I do realize that it is my "fault" that I did not complete this rental, and I have a lot of respect for owners - as I am one too. I am willing, if necessary, to reimburse her some amount for incidentals, though what those would be for 24 hours, I do not know.

My questions are:
Do I have recourse with Paypal if I do not hear from her or if she refuses to refund any money? (She is unverified and this was a private transaction - not an ebay auction)

Am I wrong to think that I should get all or most of my $400 back?

Do I skip Paypal and dispute it with my credit card company - although my credit card is a "Paypal" credit card (how nice, right?)

If I dispute with Paypal, what are the grounds? It appears I can only dispute if I claim that something I received was "materially different" from the description or if I didn't receive an item. While technically I didn't receive the rental, it was because I could not complete it.

I suppose if I must take my lumps, I will do that. $400 is not chump change. But if it turns out that way, I will certainly NEVER rent again.

Please limit the "I told you so" 's...!

e.bram · Jul 18, 2011

I would say you owe the renter the balance of $400.00 for such a late cancellation. Re rent it if you can.

dioxide45 · Jul 18, 2011

e.bram said:
I would say you owe the renter the balance of $400.00 for such a late cancellation. Re rent it if you can.

I would disagree. The most the OP should be out is $400. They don't have to pay the remaining balance. Of course they would be out their deposit and the owner would be free to re-rent it to someone else if they wish.

I would have to think that with such a last minute rental that the owner has a lower chance of re-renting it. So backing out at no cost or for only a minor fee isn't fair to the owner.

vckempson · Jul 18, 2011

If the owner can rent it back out, then she should retain enough to cover her net loss plus the cost of renting it again. If it doesn't get rented, not only should you not get anything back, you should still owe her the $400 balance, as long as she transfers the reservation into your name. Absent any discussion of cancellation fees and refunds before sending her the deposit, there aren't any, the rental is as discussed.

Not trying to be harsh here. I feel very sorry for you and your plight. The financial pain, however, should not be borne by the owner once he rents it out... unless, of course, you negotiated something different at the outset of the rental.

rickandcindy23 · Jul 18, 2011

7/24 is so high demand, even though it is a last-minute rental, I would try to rent it for this person, if I were in your position. We own SBP and had at least ten inquiries for this upcoming week, most have been in the last few weeks. I would say HH would be the same demand.

Advertise it on Craig's List and all free venues, and you will find another renter to take it and let the owner know you are happy to help her rent it, since you agreed to take it and now cannot use it.

Nancy · Jul 18, 2011

I'm very sorry about your accident, but I don't think you are due your deposit back. It is not the owners fault that you broke your foot. If they can re-rent it, then I think you would be due the difference, including the fees for re-listing the week. You are making the owner seem like the bad person here and they did nothing wrong. That is why they require a deposit. If they don't re-rent the unit, you would also owe the remaining balance.

JMHO

Nancy

ps. Not my unit.

ace2000 · Jul 18, 2011

Sorry to hear about your accident. I think you are asking two basic questions here...

I think what you are asking is should you get your $400 back that you've already paid? The answer to that one is that you are at the mercy of the person who rented to you. Don't worry about he/she getting back to you... believe me, it's in their interests also and they will.

And then you want to know how to use Paypal to get your initial $400 back. I would say do the right thing and leave Paypal out of it. Work out the best deal you can with the renter, and accept whatever is agreed upon. Yes, you may be able to get your money back through a dispute, but would you feel good about that?

If you can rent it out as some have suggested, fine. However, then you'll have to figure out who is going to deal with the next party and how you're going to place the reservation in their name with the resort. That could get complicated to do on your own.

I would say you should be prepared to lose the $400. Sorry. Do you have a friend or family member that can use it?

P.S. Not my unit either!

theo · Jul 18, 2011

My $0.02 worth...

Nancy said:
If they can re-rent it, then I think you would be due the difference, including the fees for re-listing the week. If they don't re-rent the unit, you would also owe the remaining balance.

Significant and worthy of note and consideration here is the fact that there was apparently no formal rental agreement of any kind ever executed. Paypal is highly unlikely to "back" the would-be renter here, as PayPal offers little or no protection in "non tangibles" transactions --- such as rentals.

Accordingly, without either taking sides or professing expertise, my own thoughts are that the deposit is almost certainly gone (after all, July 24 is now less than a week away) and that the would-be renter will not / should not "owe" the remaining balance. Both parties may well lose a bit here, but to repeat a critically important point --- no rental agreement was ever executed identifiying a cancellation policy. :shrug:

vckempson · Jul 18, 2011

theo said:
Significant and worthy of note and consideration here is the fact that there was apparently no formal rental agreement of any kind ever executed. Paypal is highly unlikely to back the would-be renter, as they offer little or no protection to the would-be renter in such a "non-tangibles" transaction.

Accordingly, without taking sides or professing expertise, my own thoughts are that the deposit is almost certainly gone (after all, July 24 is now less than a week away) and that the informal would-be renter will not / should not "owe" the remaining balance. Both parties may well lose a bit here in all likelihood, but to repeat a critically important point --- no rental agreement was ever executed clearly identifiying a cancellation policy.

I'd think that the rental listing would suffice. If the deposit is consistent with the listing description, then the listing itself could be construed as the contract.

vacationhopeful · Jul 18, 2011

Sorry you broke your foot.

Sorry you can't go on vacation.

I am also sorry that the LANDLORD will most likely not get the balance of $400 on the rental. You agree to rent the week. You paid a deposit. The landlord put the rental in your name. Where did the LANDLORD fail to produce their product? If you sent the other $400, you could check in and sleep in the unit.

You (if you haven't) should email the owner and say, I can't go and it is NOT your fault. Please try to re-rent the week. If you cover your cost plus some, I would HOPE you would return any excess to me - as this was unplanned and an accident.

As for future rentals, that is your call. My comment would be life happens --- why should the owner of the rental be insuring your bad luck and health?

Not my rental either.

theo · Jul 18, 2011

vckempson said:
I'd think that the rental listing would suffice. If the deposit is consistent with the listing description, then the listing itself could be construed as the contract.

Maybe, but the underlying issue of substance is still cancellation policy, an issue which is not cited as having even been mentioned within the listing and which was apparently never addressed by separate formal rental agreement... :shrug:

dmbrand · Jul 18, 2011

Could you give us a timeline of these transactions? The "24 hours off the market" needs defining.

Did you agree to rent this, send the money and then break your leg all within a matter of a couple of days? Or did you rent the unit weeks/months ago? I saw that you posted on July 12th that you were looking for a unit to rent.

Not sure that it would change the responses, but it makes the situation that much more unfortunate. Sorry about the leg.

ronparise · Jul 18, 2011

When I rent; its with the understanding that there are no cancellations, and no returns, The deposit (and final payment) is mine.

However the further understanding is that life happens, and if you cant gom let me know, I will continue to advertise and if I rent it for the same amount or more, return your money.

all this depends on good communication, which is missing in your situation

By the way I dont use a contract or sign anything...I send a pay pal invoice where my no cancel policy is clearly stated...when you push the button on pay pal, the deal is done

Good luck

I think I would travel anyway. I have broken my foot too and with enough pain medication, you hardly know its there...My point is: Its going to hurt and you will need help whether you are at home or on vacation...so why not go

vckempson · Jul 18, 2011

Foreverloves... why not head on out and go on vacation? Would you rather be stuck at home or in Hilton Head with you hubby waiting on you hand and foot. HHI is about as relaxing as you're going to get. Go! You'll have a story to tell your grandkids about how grandma broke her foot then went sunning on the beach in HHI, and then somehow found a way to go dancing... ah um, shuffling at the shag club.

vckempson · Jul 18, 2011

theo said:
Maybe, but the underlying issue of substance is still cancellation policy, an issue which is not cited as having even been mentioned within the listing and which was apparently never addressed by separate formal rental agreement...

That's the whole point. If it ain't there, it ain't there. You can't impose a contract provision out of thin air. I've certainly watched enough "people's court" (no laughing now, I'm taking the NJ bar exam next week, :hysterical: ) to know that unless there's a cancellation or refund provision discussed and agreed to (or in contract) then it's an "all sales are final" kind of thing.

timeflies · Jul 18, 2011

I undersand you broke your foot but can't you still go on vacation?

vacationhopeful · Jul 18, 2011

I had a girlfriend cancel a weekend trip on Thursday night because it was a ski resort and no fresh snow was in the forecast. She sent her thug roofer cousin to my front door to collect her money. She got her money, never talked to her again and everyone I knew was told the story.

Go on the vacation. Prop your foot up on a HHI pillow. Relax. The food will be better. Maybe rent a wheelchair to take down to make you more mobile. You weren't going to work anyway, were you?

dougp26364 · Jul 18, 2011

As a private rental, I don't see that there is a lot of protection for the consumer from the person renting the unit. This isn't like renting on Expedia or Orbitz from a major corporation who can offer rates that allow cancelation up to 6 PM on the day of arrival. Individuals have significant cash outlay and very few means of recovering cancelled reservations on short notice.

This is one of those instances where trip insurance would have been great. You rented a non-refundable rental. I doubt you'll have any recourse to get your deposit back. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect you to have to send the balance either. Especially if no rental agreement is in place.

You could seek legal council to see if you have recourse as there was no agreement signed but, that's likely going to cost you more than the $400.

Renting from an individual would be one of those few times I'd consider buying trip insurance if only for the potential for illness or injury and most private rentals are non-refundable.

dougp26364 · Jul 18, 2011

ronparise said:
I think I would travel anyway. I have broken my foot too and with enough pain medication, you hardly know its there...My point is: Its going to hurt and you will need help whether you are at home or on vacation...so why not go

We had a friend who lived in Denver and decided to have elective surgery rather than vacation with us on the beech. While she was recovering watching the blizzard and stuck in her house, she called us and asked if the room was still open. She figured she could recover stuck in the snow or recover sunning herself on the beech. So, with her doctors approval of course, she caught booked a last minute flight on Hotwire and flew down to Florida to recover on the beech.

rickandcindy23 · Jul 18, 2011

I guess TUGgers trust too much. You both needed a contract, but all standard contracts for rentals always say you lose your deposit, no matter what.

So you didn't get a contract, and now you want to back out of the rental because there was no contract? The owner didn't even make you pay in full, even though the rental is so close. All rental contracts require full payment <60 days out. And if this doesn't go your way, you won't rent again? I think you could at least try to find someone to take the week, but that's just me. No one else seems to agree.

There is not an exchange on RCI or II or anywhere for HHI or MB for all of summer, and this owner could have gotten someone to take it who would follow through.

You own at the resort, too, and you knew you could make a simple phone call to ensure this is a legitimate owner, with a week to rent. You probably did that. Now you want a refund, less than one week before the rental starts. I think you are asking way too much. It's not the owner's fault you broke your foot.

ace2000 · Jul 18, 2011

Everyone appears to be giving legal advice on the OP's question... what is the Paypal policy for matters such as this? Will she get her money if she files a dispute? Guess she could make up something about the ad being wrong or anything else. However, it's definitely not the right way to handle this!

Again, as I mentioned in my other post here, I would recommend to the OP to do the right thing, and sleep better about it.

Passepartout · Jul 18, 2011

I have to side with Ron Parise on this. Sorry about the broken foot, but it won't hurt any worse or heal any slower on vacation than at home. Go. You'll feel better. The deal you made with the landlord is honored. Consider trip insurance in the future to cover you for unexpected situations.

Have as great a vacation as possible!

Jim Ricks

BocaBum99 · Jul 18, 2011

foreverloves said:
All right. Here's the story. And let me say, we have never rented privately before.

My husband & I were searching for a rental at our resort in Hilton Head for an earlier week than our scheduled week due to a potential conflict that might have prevented us from going to HHI during our booked week. We found an owner, who advertised here on TUG and also on Redweek, who was offering a week with a check in date of 7/24 - which worked almost perfectly for us. We exchanged several emails and telephone numbers. My husband moved his vacation days, etc. Per Redweek's rental guidelines, we agreed to send her 50% of the agreed-upon price ($400). She sent us a copy of her confirmed reservation and we agreed that we would send the balance when she transferred the reservation into our name. I paid the $400 via paypal using my Paypal credit card. I realized later that the user was not a verified user, but I'd already sent the money.

On Friday morning, I broke my foot (long story) and ended up in the ER and now have a wonderful cast on for at least 4 weeks. As soon as it happened, we knew we could not complete the rental. I had my husband (since I was hopped up on pain meds at the time) email her to explain our situation. 24 hours later, no response (and she was responding within 24 hours before this). On Saturday night, I emailed her again, myself, to further explain and to inquire how we could effectuate a refund of some kind. No response. This person claims to be overseas right now and while I do have her phone number, it is a cell number and it goes right to voicemail.

The important things are:

1. I signed nothing.
2. She said nothing in her email communications about any cancellation fee or anything like that.
3. I have not heard from her since Friday morning at about 7 AM.
4. To my knowledge, she did not change the reservation into our name, or did anything else with it. Her "rental" was "off the market" for 24 hours or less.

It is possible that I will hear from her early this week, but I am concerned I may not. In the interim, I am out $400. I do realize that it is my "fault" that I did not complete this rental, and I have a lot of respect for owners - as I am one too. I am willing, if necessary, to reimburse her some amount for incidentals, though what those would be for 24 hours, I do not know.

My questions are:
Do I have recourse with Paypal if I do not hear from her or if she refuses to refund any money? (She is unverified and this was a private transaction - not an ebay auction)

Am I wrong to think that I should get all or most of my $400 back?

Do I skip Paypal and dispute it with my credit card company - although my credit card is a "Paypal" credit card (how nice, right?)

If I dispute with Paypal, what are the grounds? It appears I can only dispute if I claim that something I received was "materially different" from the description or if I didn't receive an item. While technically I didn't receive the rental, it was because I could not complete it.

I suppose if I must take my lumps, I will do that. $400 is not chump change. But if it turns out that way, I will certainly NEVER rent again.

Please limit the "I told you so" 's...!

You agreed to rent the unit. You paid a good faith deposit. You should pay the balance due and go on vacation. Otherwise, you should have the owner to re-rent it and provide you with the balance due less the costs to rent it again.

foreverloves · Jul 18, 2011

JUST TO BE CLEAR...

There IS NO INDICATION that the landlord EVER put the rental "IN MY NAME". I cannot rent it out myself - it's not my reservation. I received no confirmation that the unit was ever placed in my name. The only thing I received was HER confirmation in HER name.

There was no rental agreement, and she never said anything about a cancellation fee. The rental was "off the market" less than 24 hours and as far as I can tell, is still advertised for rent on TUG and on redweek as available.

Had she stipulated a cancellation fee, I would have sent a $100 "token" amount first, before she transferred anything into my name, then sent the balance, which would have saved me $300.

Not to mention, as of this morning, I've received no reply, which in my estimation is highly unprofessional. I realize Paypal will likely not back me on this - and I also realize it's my "fault" for not completing the rental. I ALSO know that I will never know if this person actually rented their week or not - and it's not mine to rent as it's not even in my name. So there you go.

I would be willing to pay her, say, $100 for any costs, but that's as far as I can see going - to be fair. But it's real likely I'll get nothing.

And e.bram - good luck collecting the balance from me when there is no rental agreement (signed or otherwise) and there was no transfer of the reservation. For all I know, this was some kind of a scam.

foreverloves · Jul 18, 2011

Passepartout said:
I have to side with Ron Parise on this. Sorry about the broken foot, but it won't hurt any worse or heal any slower on vacation than at home. Go. You'll feel better. The deal you made with the landlord is honored. Consider trip insurance in the future to cover you for unexpected situations.

I would love to; but it's 14 hours from my house to HHI. I have a doctor's appointment during the week I am gone and I also couldn't make it sitting still in a car for that long. Believe me - I want to go! Plus, when did I have time to even buy trip insurance?? I contacted her Thursday night and then Friday morning, this happened. I didn't even have a confirmed reservation in my own name. What if she had never transferred the reservation? I'd be out the cost of trip insurance - and the deposit - for nothing. I would at least wait until I had the confirmation IN MY NAME first!

Feedback please! (bad rental?)

foreverloves

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e.bram

dioxide45

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vckempson

rickandcindy23

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Nancy

ace2000

theo

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vckempson

vacationhopeful

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theo

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dmbrand

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ronparise

vckempson

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timeflies

vacationhopeful

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dougp26364

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dougp26364

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rickandcindy23

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BocaBum99

foreverloves

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