BBB complaint

[dghenri]

I recently contacted the BBB and filed a complaint against Wyndham because of the lost of the ability to cancel and rebook to get a discount on the points used to make the reservation. I did this after meeting with representatives at two of their resorts to voice my grievance. Those meeting allowed amounted to the trying to get us to become Presidential Reserve Members" I also had several conference calls with Wyndham's Owner Care Department and they basically said so sorry, the auto upgrade feature, which killed the cancel and rebook method, was instituted because owner feedback indicated the owners were frustrated because they could not get an upgrade.

I suggested that the build in a ten minute delay so that owners could rebook prior to the cancelled reservation being picked up by the system and awarded as an upgrade, "the sound of crickets chirping" was the response to that idea. With regard to my grievance of the method of cancelling and rebooking being taught, sold, illustrated at their resorts, Wyndham characterized their sales representatives and workshop providers and entry level employees lacking knowledge of the system, which is false.

I just got fed up and decided to go to the BBB. One common theme in all of my dealing with Wyndham is that they respond to owner complaints and concerns. They say they have heard my complaint and I am not the only one. My suggestion is that if you are unhappy with the lost of the ability to cancel and rebook that you follow suit and file your own complaint. It will cost you only the time to write. Maybe if enough of us complain they will find a way to restore wat we have lost. I say we put their feet to the fire and see where this leads.

 

[CruiseGuy]

Sooo... You filed a BBB complaint because of a loophole that was eliminated. Cancel Rebook was never an intended or documented benefit. It was a loophole someone discovered and then sales exploited. The intended benefit was for VIP to have discounted access to actual unbooked inventory still available. That is why you got no further response.

 

[ssreward]

I have a feeling the corporate response would be something along the lines of - you're in the same position you were before, they've just leveled the playing field. Undoubtably, there's plenty of members who aren't eligible for upgrades (either not high enough level or resale purchases) that provided feedback also & that probably skewed their view as well. Not having people tie up rooms they don't actually want while hoping for a cheaper upgrade does help those of us that have to pay full points no matter what get the rooms we really do want so it's just a matter of majority vs minority more than anything...

 

[dandjane1]

Agreed with both of you, BUTTTTTT........the sales weasels always exploited the cancel & rebook scheme as an inducement to buy more points at your "update". "Something for nothing" as it were.

 

[ssreward]

Agreed with both of you, BUTTTTTT........the sales weasels always exploited the cancel & rebook scheme as an inducement to buy more points at your "update". "Something for nothing" as it were.

I'm sure they did & at least it wasn't a complete lie unlike the other 98% of what comes out of their mouths. It's still possible, just not as great as it was.

 

[ronparise]

Agreed with both of you, BUTTTTTT........the sales weasels always exploited the cancel & rebook scheme as an inducement to buy more points at your "update". "Something for nothing" as it were.

Exactly right the salesmen knew about this loophole and taught their customers how to exploit it to get a discount on almost every reservation. So what?
that dosent make it right.

It was never intended that a vip owner. get a discount on every reservation. It just wasn’t

 

[ronparise]

And by the way. Wyndham dosent care about BBB. They have had a lousy rating there for years

 

[nicemann]

And by the way. Wyndham dosent care about BBB. They have had a lousy rating there for years

I would have to agree. Just for run I figured I would check them out on BBB. Only a C+ rating.

Customer Complaints Summary
1998 complaints closed with BBB in last 3 years | 628 closed in last 12 months

Reading the responses from Wyndham never talks about a positive outcome. Just that they are researching and will contact the buyer via email or us mail to discuss the findings. Some of these cases are truly sad involving elder people who probably had no idea what they were signing up for.

 

[Avislo]

Hard to tell if they care or not. I remember the days their BBB rating was much lower.

 

[ronparise]

I bet that there were more folks complaining to the BBB and Wyndham about how hard it is to get the reservation they want due to the megarenters and other VIP owners getting twice as many reservations as they are entitled to, then there are complaints from the VIPs who can’t get double reservations like they used to.

 

[dghenri]

I would like to point out that these sales representatives up sold us on membership levels, first Silver then Gold and ultimately Platinum chasing greater discounts. Never once during these sales pitches was the word exploit used. The system of cancelling and rebooking was taught as a matter of fact, drawn out, diagrammed. When I reached the million point level I remember the sales representative stating that my million points was worth two. I was even called upon at an Owner's update to explain the method I used on booking my room. I was held up as a shining example of how to maximize my membership. It was stated to the group that if they were not happy with their membership they were not using their benefits to its maximum potential.

As an outsider, I don't work for Wyndham, how would I know what is a "loophole". The sales team never characterized it as a loophole. Had they done so I would expect it to close so I spent my money, over 150K, to get the largest discount possible. Never was it expressed to me that it would go away. When you have representatives of a company selling you a product and the same sales pitch is used throughout all the resorts I stayed at the likelihood of their Corporate Office not knowing what is being said/sold is slim to none. To take away that benefit after the money has been collected is something I would expect if I signed a contract in a dark alley not at a Wyndham Resort. I trusted in the brand, what their representatives sold me on and paid a pretty penny for trust.

Also I have heard this before, it was never meant that an owner would get a discount on every reservation. Well I do understand that I could have lost my room when I cancelled, which never happened, I excepted that there was risk but I paid to take the risk, to make that option available to me by upgrading my membership. So where does it say it was "never meant that an owner would get a discount on every reservation"? A method was taught my Wyndham Sales Reps, whose cubicles are often decorated by numerous awards indicating excellence. Why would I believe there was anything shady, unfair in a practice when it is illustrated time and time again and I am called upon to tell others?

With regard to tying up inventory, never once did I do that. I always booked the room I reserved like everyone else. I did not join to make money, do business or anything else other than vacation. If owners were using benefits for profit then Wyndham most certainly should find a way to curtail that behavior but not at the expense of those who were not.

 

[dghenri]

I would also like to address those that hold the belief that Wyndham may not care about complaints to the BBB or their rating. My thought is that they may because it could effect their bottom line, the value of their stock. If their rating continue to fall and stockholders take notice and they may flee in favor of less precarious investments. So what if that C+ became a D or D minus. Shareholders my interpret that rating as a bad risk.

What I do know if no one complains their is zero to no chance of change. Change can and does happen in the government and in the corporate world. I am retired and I worked for a large nationwide entity for 30 years and I can tell you for a fact that we did not do business in year 30 as we did on day one and that was because people complained. The squeaky wheel is much more likely to get oil versus the one that doesn't.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Coming late to the game (Dad had already purchased 1.4M), it was quite an eye opener to hear the sales pitch. As the WYN sales people tried to sell my Dad even more points, they certainly did market cancel/rebook as a VIP benefit. They did not mention the risk. Only when I brought up that there must be risk involved, did the salesperson admit there was. And even then he poo-pooed it as minimal/no worries. Had I not brought up the risk, it would not have come up, of that I am certain. My Dad was not a cancel/rebooker - the salesperson was trying to convince me (to convince my Dad).

At the August owners meeting, at the exec round tables, there were many upset owners voicing their disconcert at cancel/rebook being curtailed with the new system.

I'm not saying filing with the BBB is a bad idea, but the lawyer I spoke to suggested filing a complaint with the Florida DBPR (Department of Business and Professional Regulation). WYN appears to care what they say. There are other posts here on TUG about DBPR (with positive outcomes). Here is their website: http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/lsc/index.html

Apparently the DBPR is the closest thing to a boss that WYN has. WYN really does get to do whatever they want because tourism is so big in Florida - no one wants to make them too mad. That is my opinion based on my experience, not anything a lawyer specifically told me. Just my take away based on personal experience.

And that takes us back to the cancel/rebook. It's not in writing, it's not in the contract. What really matters, regardless of what was said in your sales presentations, is what is in the written contract (that you signed). Sad as that may be (points above (dghenri) very well stated/taken).

 

[ronparise]

I would like to point out that these sales representatives up sold us on membership levels, first Silver then Gold and ultimately Platinum chasing greater discounts. Never once during these sales pitches was the word exploit used. The system of cancelling and rebooking was taught as a matter of fact, drawn out, diagrammed. When I reached the million point level I remember the sales representative stating that my million points was worth two. I was even called upon at an Owner's update to explain the method I used on booking my room. I was held up as a shining example of how to maximize my membership. It was stated to the group that if they were not happy with their membership they were not using their benefits to its maximum potential.

As an outsider, I don't work for Wyndham, how would I know what is a "loophole". The sales team never characterized it as a loophole. Had they done so I would expect it to close so I spent my money, over 150K, to get the largest discount possible. Never was it expressed to me that it would go away. When you have representatives of a company selling you a product and the same sales pitch is used throughout all the resorts I stayed at the likelihood of their Corporate Office not knowing what is being said/sold is slim to none. To take away that benefit after the money has been collected is something I would expect if I signed a contract in a dark alley not at a Wyndham Resort. I trusted in the brand, what their representatives sold me on and paid a pretty penny for trust.

Also I have heard this before, it was never meant that an owner would get a discount on every reservation. Well I do understand that I could have lost my room when I cancelled, which never happened, I excepted that there was risk but I paid to take the risk, to make that option available to me by upgrading my membership. So where does it say it was "never meant that an owner would get a discount on every reservation"? A method was taught my Wyndham Sales Reps, whose cubicles are often decorated by numerous awards indicating excellence. Why would I believe there was anything shady, unfair in a practice when it is illustrated time and time again and I am called upon to tell others?

With regard to tying up inventory, never once did I do that. I always booked the room I reserved like everyone else. I did not join to make money, do business or anything else other than vacation. If owners were using benefits for profit then Wyndham most certainly should find a way to curtail that behavior but not at the expense of those who were not.

What possible difference does it make whether I cancel and rebook for my own use or cancel and rebook for my own profit. Either way I used my points for my own selfish purposes. And you, yours.

you spent $150000 so you could get a 50% discount on all your reservations. Your million points are still worth 2 million. (Just make all your reservations within 60 days of check in).

The discount program is in writing. VIPs get discounts on what’s available 60 days before check in. That’s the way it was and that’s the way it is.

If you were entitled to a discount on every reservation then the cancel rebook thing should have worked every time and the reservations clerks wouldn’t have warned you about the risk

It was a game. And the game is over


About the money. It dosent matter whether you paid $150000 for the effective use of 2 million points or paid $150000 for the use of 1 million points. Either way you got screwed. The very same points are available on the secondary market for $5000 per 1 million points. Even with discounts all the time $150000 is too much to pay

 

[ronparise]

Coming late to the game (Dad had already purchased 1.4M), it was quite an eye opener to hear the sales pitch. As the WYN sales people tried to sell my Dad even more points, they certainly did market cancel/rebook as a VIP benefit. They did not mention the risk. Only when I brought up that there must be risk involved, did the salesperson admit there was. And even then he poo-pooed it as minimal/no worries. Had I not brought up the risk, it would not have come up, of that I am certain. My Dad was not a cancel/rebooker - the salesperson was trying to convince me (to convince my Dad).

At the August owners meeting, at the exec round tables, there were many upset owners voicing their disconcert at cancel/rebook being curtailed with the new system.

I'm not saying filing with the BBB is a bad idea, but the lawyer I spoke to suggested filing a complaint with the Florida DBPR (Department of Business and Professional Regulation). WYN appears to care what they say. There are other posts here on TUG about DBPR (with positive outcomes). Here is their website: http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/lsc/index.html

Apparently the DBPR is the closest thing to a boss that WYN has. WYN really does get to do whatever they want because tourism is so big in Florida - no one wants to make them too mad. That is my opinion based on my experience, not anything a lawyer specifically told me. Just my take away based on personal experience.

And that takes us back to the cancel/rebook. It's not in writing, it's not in the contract. What really matters, regardless of what was said in your sales presentations, is what is in the written contract (that you signed). Sad as that may be (points above (dghenri) very well stated/taken).

What is in writing is that vip discounts are for reservations made from available inventory within 60 days of check in and that hasn’t changed

 

[dghenri]

What possible difference does it make whether I cancel and rebook for my own use or cancel and rebook for my own profit. Either way I used my points for my own selfish purposes. And you, yours.

you spent $150000 so you could get a 50% discount on all your reservations. Your million points are still worth 2 million. (Just make all your reservations within 60 days of check in).

The discount program is in writing. VIPs get discounts on what’s available 60 days before check in. That’s the way it was and that’s the way it is.

If you were entitled to a discount on every reservation then the cancel rebook thing should have worked every time and the reservations clerks wouldn’t have warned you about the risk

It was a game. And the game is over


About the money. It dosent matter whether you paid $150000 for the effective use of 2 million points or paid $150000 for the use of 1 million points. Either way you got screwed. The very same points are available on the secondary market for $5000 per 1 million points. Even with discounts all the time $150000 is too much to pay

 

[dghenri]

I had mentioned the fact that I purchased my membership to vacation not to make money because there seems to be a belief that VIP members were using their membership as a business venture. It was in response to this statement "megarenters and other VIP owners getting twice as many reservations as they are entitled to." I just wanted to address that to indicate that is not true my case and actually I could care less what anyone does with their points, live and let live. Just defending myself from those who would paint an inaccurate picture of the reason for my complaint.

I believe honesty and integrity should be the cornerstone of any reputable business. I trusted in Wyndham, trusted that the brand stood for something. With that belief, when I was sold a membership based upon performance I did not for one second believe that the course would be changed midstream. I consider a sales pitch by a company representative as something supported 100% by the company they represent. Had at the time of the sale had I been told open and honestly about "loopholes" "it was never meant" some sort of game then so be it, I accept the change, it is what it is. That is not what happened. I would not sign up for a discount that you can never get, what's the point of that? What inventory will be left 60 days out? None at the resorts I vacation at. So I got screwed, but I still have fight in me. I am just encouraging others to join the battle if they so choose, hoping that the number of complaints my compel Wyndham to reconsider.

 

[dghenri]

What is in writing is that vip discounts are for reservations made from available inventory within 60 days of check in and that hasn’t changed

Thank you for your support and the website where I can submit an additional complaint that may carry more leverage, it is very much appreciated.

 

[breezez]

I would also like to address those that hold the belief that Wyndham may not care about complaints to the BBB or their rating. My thought is that they may because it could effect their bottom line, the value of their stock. If their rating continue to fall and stockholders take notice and they may flee in favor of less precarious investments. So what if that C+ became a D or D minus. Shareholders my interpret that rating as a bad risk.

What I do know if no one complains their is zero to no chance of change. Change can and does happen in the government and in the corporate world. I am retired and I worked for a large nationwide entity for 30 years and I can tell you for a fact that we did not do business in year 30 as we did on day one and that was because people complained. The squeaky wheel is much more likely to get oil versus the one that doesn't.

If BBB complaints were hurting them people would not be buying new contracts. I am sure a low level employee goes through the motions to clear them. But I don’t think WYN cares to much with results.

Complaints they will care about are ones to FL attorney generals office.

But that said you need a legitimate complaint. In contract law you have the 4 corners rule, basically only what is in the 4 corners of the document matter period. The fluff of VIP and what it gets you can be changed or taken away at anytime it’s not guaranteed in your contract.

If you have accounts you can’t access, years of points missing under new systems, account on hold preventing their use while audits are going on etc. then you have a great reason to contact FL attorney general and file a complaint. But angry you can no longer game the system like you used to be able to wont get you very far.

 

[dghenri]

Sir I thank you for your thoughtful input and for your perspective on Florida's Attorney General, which may be my next step. The fundamental premise of my complaint is that a corporation should be held accountable for the conduct of its employees. I don't work for Wyndham and never owned a single timeshare or knew much about the industry in general until I attended one of their meetings while on vacation.


When I sit in on one of their meetings surrounded by staff in business suits and I am told about the merits of membership and the different perks associated with the different levels of ownership I am compelled to believe them. It's Wyndham, a worldwide known brand, not Acme Timeshares. More often than not these sales persons take you to their workstations decorated by company awards pictures of their families etc, they most certainly don't appear to be charlatans that would sale a perspective buyer on some sort of game, exploitation of the system through a loophole. I am angry not because I cannot game the system because I did not know it was a game. Had at any point a Wyndham representative even hinted that cancel/rebook was a loophole, a way to trick the system, some sort of exploitation, I would fully accept that it was over. Again assert my innocence and would take a polygraph to support that.

This cancel/rebook was taught, drawn out, illustrated on paper before my eyes at every single resort I upgraded at without exception. So we are talking about multiple resorts and multiple representatives. Again I was called upon at Owner Workshops to tell other owners how I booked my reservation. I was touted as an owner that knew how to maximize his points. I hardly seems that if this was some sort of underhanded method, a way of gaming or beating the system, I would have been called upon by Wyndham staff members in a well-lit conference room full of other owners to espouse the method. It would be like espousing the ability of a thief.

Cancel/rebook was taught as a matter of fact, a method to save half of your points if you were a Platinum Member. I wanted access to inventory as well as affordability and my membership level ultimately gave me both. I spent the money I spent based upon those two things, accessibility and affordability, without either one of them the membership, for me, is not worth the dollars spent.

With regard to the contract these meetings are fast paced high pressure events with regard to sales. The goal, which they never seem to stick to, is supposed to last 90 minutes or less to include the breakfast or lunch they serve you. They make you a one-time offer on deals and often, if you decline, they have you sign a document that the offer was declined telling you it would never more to be made available. if you agree to close the deal verbally, they present you with the paperwork summarizing each document they ask you to initial and sign. Am I the only one that doesn't read word for word every contract or document presented to me at a title company, an automobile dealership etc? We rely on and put our trust in the representative that those documents represent their spoken word. Maybe it is foolish but I suggest it is a very common occurrence.

Back to my premise, can a sales representative tell you anything, teach you anything, provide you with any methodology to make a sale? The company then would have zero obligation to fulfill what was said even if a consumer made a purchase based upon that information? Maybe they can but if that is true it is a slippery slope. Just imagine if "ANYTHING" can be said and then you sign, "gotcha" I would hope consumers have more protection than that.

 

[breezez]

Sir I thank you for your thoughtful input and for your perspective on Florida's Attorney General, which may be my next step. The fundamental premise of my complaint is that a corporation should be held accountable for the conduct of its employees. I don't work for Wyndham and never owned a single timeshare or knew much about the industry in general until I attended one of their meetings while on vacation.


When I sit in on one of their meetings surrounded by staff in business suits and I am told about the merits of membership and the different perks associated with the different levels of ownership I am compelled to believe them. It's Wyndham, a worldwide known brand, not Acme Timeshares. More often than not these sales persons take you to their workstations decorated by company awards pictures of their families etc, they most certainly don't appear to be charlatans that would sale a perspective buyer on some sort of game, exploitation of the system through a loophole. I am angry not because I cannot game the system because I did not know it was a game. Had at any point a Wyndham representative even hinted that cancel/rebook was a loophole, a way to trick the system, some sort of exploitation, I would fully accept that it was over. Again assert my innocence and would take a polygraph to support that.

This cancel/rebook was taught, drawn out, illustrated on paper before my eyes at every single resort I upgraded at without exception. So we are talking about multiple resorts and multiple representatives. Again I was called upon at Owner Workshops to tell other owners how I booked my reservation. I was touted as an owner that knew how to maximize his points. I hardly seems that if this was some sort of underhanded method, a way of gaming or beating the system, I would have been called upon by Wyndham staff members in a well-lit conference room full of other owners to espouse the method. It would be like espousing the ability of a thief.

Cancel/rebook was taught as a matter of fact, a method to save half of your points if you were a Platinum Member. I wanted access to inventory as well as affordability and my membership level ultimately gave me both. I spent the money I spent based upon those two things, accessibility and affordability, without either one of them the membership, for me, is not worth the dollars spent.

With regard to the contract these meetings are fast paced high pressure events with regard to sales. The goal, which they never seem to stick to, is supposed to last 90 minutes or less to include the breakfast or lunch they serve you. They make you a one-time offer on deals and often, if you decline, they have you sign a document that the offer was declined telling you it would never more to be made available. if you agree to close the deal verbally, they present you with the paperwork summarizing each document they ask you to initial and sign. Am I the only one that doesn't read word for word every contract or document presented to me at a title company, an automobile dealership etc? We rely on and put our trust in the representative that those documents represent their spoken word. Maybe it is foolish but I suggest it is a very common occurrence.

Back to my premise, can a sales representative tell you anything, teach you anything, provide you with any methodology to make a sale? The company then would have zero obligation to fulfill what was said even if a consumer made a purchase based upon that information? Maybe they can but if that is true it is a slippery slope. Just imagine if "ANYTHING" can be said and then you sign, "gotcha" I would hope consumers have more protection than that.

dghenri,

I understand your complaint and the lack of ethics used by many people in timeshare sales, but deep in the contract you signed there is a blurb that their are no promises for
any goods or services outside what is stated in the contract. Wyndham specifically states their VIP program is subject to change or deletion at any time. You agreed to this, like it or not.

Unless you can prove in a court of law you were specifically deceived you really don’t have a leg to stand on. Some people have proved their cases and got out. You can think all you want they were unethical and I would bet they were, in fact I have never been to one owner update or sales presentation where I didn’t feel they were being deceptive or telling lies. This is an industry wide systemic problem. Sites like TUG exist to educate people.

Your more apt to affect their reputation doing a YouTube video. There are several with people who feel they were duped by the timeshare companies. But the high pressure sales they use is by design. To get you on the hook before you can research it.

I think the best thing that could happen one day to show people the deceit is to have 20/20, Date Line, MSNBC Investgates or another news organization pick an area like Vegas or Orlando and go to several timeshares presentations all the way to buying them and doing the rescind to show the world their practices. I think something like this would get lawmakers and legislatures on side of the consumer.

In any case I would probably be more mad about what you paid vs same at resale without VIP would be around $6K. While resale may not get discounts. I would not live long enough to recoupe the price difference retail vs resale on a million points at today’s prices.

 

[nicemann]

FYI I go to the "updates" every time I visit. I refuse to sign anything including the paper saying you are denying the offer. There is no reason for them to have you sign that. That is just another sells tactic to make you think the offer will never be as good. Next time if you wanted that offer I am sure they will give you the same offer. Not that I recommend buying from them though.