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Asiana Boeing 777 crashes in San Francisco

Phydeaux said:
Reports are many pasengers stopped and retrieved their baggage from the overheads, and were found wandering around the debris field with their luggage.


Further, from a cultural standpoint, it is customary to not question the PIC. Let's see, if you were sitting in the seat next to the PIC and knew he was going to crash the aircraft, do you think it would be offensive to speak up and SCREAM a command??

These are some mighty strange folk, by my standards.
Click to expand...

People in shock may act irrational. I think you are strange by my standards, you decry the speculation and question the experience of other posters, yet you continue to post random questions inviting more speculation.
 
tompalm said:
Concur. The stall recovery for the Boeing 737-800 was to immediately add max thrust and hold the nose pitch attitude between 0 - 3 degrees of pitch up, or level flight until the stall warning stopped and vertical speed was leveled off. After that, increase speed to target speed and start a climb. If the pilot raised the nose, it would cause the aircraft stall to get worse. I am pretty sure that the 777 would have a similar recovery procedure.
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You concur then say Boeing stall recovery is up to 3 degrees of UP!
I know that is basically level flight but still you are pulling the yolk back, not pushing.
I believe Boeing has revised this in light of AF.
 
Clemson Fan said:
I find it shocking that nobody was clamoring to get off that plane to provide immediate first aid assistance! You have clear survivors on the ground and a mass casualty situation right in front of you! Geez, if I were a passenger I'd be yelling at the captain and crew to gather up all the first aid equipment on that plane and to exit ASAP to try and provide some aid! I sure as hell wouldn't be asking for another coffee or soda!
Click to expand...
I saw an interview of a policeman who did this. He went in the plane and used a knife to cut the safety belts and other officers handed knifes to the airline crew to help other passengers that were stuck. This officer also told a medical van, that had delivered a passenger to a plane, to go to the crash area immediately with his van.

I hope that we stop inexperienced flight crew from landing planes in the USA. They have done it before so could do it again.
 
SMHarman said:
You concur then say Boeing stall recovery is up to 3 degrees of UP!
I know that is basically level flight but still you are pulling the yolk back, not pushing.
I believe Boeing has revised this in light of AF.
Click to expand...

No he didn't and neither do I.

It's yoke, not yolk (as in eggs and probably a result or auto correct ;)) and that pitch attitude is to maintain level flight and maintain yoke or stick position when you get a stall warning and not actually in a stalled condition. If you get a stall warning, you are in level flight at a high angle of attack. When the stall warning sounds, you either lower the nose, add power or both. If you "pulled the yoke back" when actually in a stall, which is not level flight, it would deepen the stall, not recover. If you raised the nose by pulling back when you get a stall warning, you would likely stall the wing in short order and depart from level flight.

Cheers
 
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iconnections said:
I saw an interview of a policeman who did this. He went in the plane and used a knife to cut the safety belts and other officers handed knifes to the airline crew to help other passengers that were stuck. This officer also told a medical van, that had delivered a passenger to a plane, to go to the crash area immediately with his van.
Click to expand...

It is quite different for a person from the Fire and Rescue organization to do what he did than for a person not from that organization to just rush into the scene and potentially becoming another victim. Likewise it is quite different for a member of Fire and Rescue to direct other pepole and their equipment not from the organization to assist than for someone to just drive a rescue vehicle into the scene without coordination.

When the incident commander is directing Fire, Police and equipment use, the last thing he or she needs is for well intentioned people trying to help without coordination and possibly wind up dealing with another victim.

The SFO Fire and Rescue organization performed exemplary.

Cheers
 
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x3 skier said:
Good for you. Next time you are in a position to unilaterally decide to activate an emergency exit on an airliner for whatever reason, do as you see fit.

Cheers
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I don't think it would be looked at like the disgruntled flight attendant who grabbed a couple of beers and got off the plane that way.

I also was not advocating letting all the passengers out of the plane.

Having a mass casualty situation basically right in front of you with disoriented and hurt survivors scattered about is a pretty unique situation. At the very least, I would've been trying to form up a team to go out there and assist. I would need to see emergency personnel on their way or there before I would back off. Once I saw them there and was told to back down I would comply.

I once had a car accident happen right in front of me for which I did get out and assist before the EMT's got there. Once they got there, I gave them my statement of what happened and what was going on and then I let them take over. Fortunately there were no serious injuries, but what if somebody was dazed and confused and the car was starting to burn. Would the advice still be to sit in my car and wait for the EMT's to arrive?

I was an Army Physician for 8 years and have been to many exercises and courses dealing with mass casualties.
 
Clemson Fan said:
Having a mass casualty situation basically right in front of you with disoriented and hurt survivors scattered about is a pretty unique situation. At the very least, I would've been trying to form up a team to go out there and assist. I would need to see emergency personnel on their way or there before I would back off. Once I saw them there and was told to back down I would comply.

I was an Army Physician for 8 years and have been to many exercises and courses dealing with mass casualties.
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Clemson Fan said:
I'm a physician and I would've been busting that door open and deploying the chute if I needed to if I saw these living casualties scattered about the runway and trying to get off a plane that's potentially about to burn. There's no way in hell I would've just sat in my seat.
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Those seem to be two quite different approaches.

I suggested earlier that informing the crew of your capabilities and offering assistance is a very appropriate thing to do. Your experience in mass casualties may have been helpful but "busting that door open and deploying the chute" and running across the airport to insert yourself into a incident would not be appropriate in my opinion. It might at a minimum disable the aircraft and possibly cause anxiety in the remaining passengers and most likely distract those already on the scene from addressing the needs of the victims to deal with someone who deployed an emergency chute from an aircraft near the scene, especially since they have no idea who you are and what caused the crash and why someone decided to escape from a parked aircraft near the scene.

I appreciate your desire to help and your service. I also might suggest attending to victims of a car crash in slightly different that an airliner crash involving over 300 passengers and crew and the potential for an explosion of aviation fuel. I have done the former a number of times and would volunteer my assistance at the latter rather than deploying an emergency chute and rushing into a well managed aircraft disaster rescue operation.

Cheers
 
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x3 skier said:
If you get a stall warning, you are in level flight at a high angle of attack. When the stall warning sounds, you either lower the nose, add power or both. If you "pulled the yoke back" when actually in a stall, which is not level flight, it would deepen the stall, not recover. If you raised the nose by pulling back when you get a stall warning, you would likely stall the wing in short order and depart from level flight.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Concur. When I stated level flight, I meant pitch 0-3 degrees nose up. Usually cruise attitude in the 737, or most commercial airliners is 3 degrees nose up.

It would be difficult to enter the stall at 0-3 degrees pitch angle. In the simulator, or check ride that occurs each year, pilots have to make the aircraft stall by holding nose up about 15 degrees and holding a 30 degree bank angle. When the aircraft gets stall warning, the correct response is max power, level the wings and lower the nose to 0-3 degrees nose up until the stall warning stops, increase speed and start a slow climb. If everything is done right, altitude loss should only be 300 feet or less from the time the stall warning started.

I have read a lot of safety reports and have never heard of a commercial airliner entering stall. This 777 was more than 30 knots below target. By most airline standards, that would be gross negligence. If someone did that in a simulator, they would fail. 10 knots off target in smooth air is about as bad as it gets and I have not ever seen that.

Now we learn the First Officer was actually an instructor pilot. The mishap investigation report will be interesting. There must be human factors involved here, like alcohol, medication, or something else that caused this to happen.
 
x3 skier said:
It is quite different for a person from the Fire and Rescue organization to do what he did than for a person not from that organization to just rush into the scene and potentially becoming another victim. Likewise it is quite different for a member of Fire and Rescue to direct other pepole and their equipment not from the organization to assist than for someone to just drive a rescue vehicle into the scene without coordination.

When the incident commander is directing Fire, Police and equipment use, the last thing he or she needs is for well intentioned people trying to help without coordination and possibly wind up dealing with another victim.

The SFO Fire and Rescue organization performed exemplary.

Cheers
Click to expand...
Correct.

And if you have OSC responsibilities with resources at your disposal and you see a need, it is critical that you hold those resources until you can assess. For example, in the situation of the plane crash, you don't make major commitments of resources to where people are streaming out of the plane, stumbling, collapsing to the ground, and in obvious need of help. Not until you check out the areas where people are NOT streaming from the plane. Because those locations would be where the need for help is greatest.
 
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Nice video, thanks for posting. One news report stated that the aircraft was at 100 feet four seconds prior to impact. The news also reported that foreign pilots are not required to take drug or alcohol test after a crash like American pilots do. Guess we will never know if it was really bad flying skills, or if there was more to it like pilots taking medication that caused impairment.
 
tompalm said:
Nice video, thanks for posting. One news report stated that the aircraft was at 100 feet four seconds prior to impact. The news also reported that foreign pilots are not required to take drug or alcohol test after a crash like American pilots do. Guess we will never know if it was really bad flying skills, or if there was more to it like pilots taking medication that caused impairment.
Click to expand...

If it isn't just "plane" pilot error, I will be very very suprised.

Cheers
 
Passenger killed by fire truck after surviving the plane crash!

Boy, This http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...tim-killed-by-fire-truck-not-plane-crash?lite is a bummer. Imagine looking up after surviving a plane crash and seeing the front of a fire truck bearing down on you!

Still, it is a miracle that there was no more loss of life than did occurr. Many people will have to deal with lifelong pain and disability. It remains to be seen how their medical needs and ongoing care will be seen to.

Jim
 
Yes, awful. I thought I read elsewhere that she was not visible through foam.
 
...still trying to process the fact that survivors were going to the overhead bins for their luggage.............
 
As tragically proven. Not all International carriers' training is up to U.S. standards. Think about that when you can save a few bucks on a foreign carrier you've never heard of.

Incidentally, during my own flight training, I took several 'pull up, go around and re-try the landing'. No shame in it. Far better than trying to 'save' a bad approach.

Note also that Asiana dropped their lawsuit against the TV station that used the fictitious names of the crew, as well as their suit against Boeing. Hardly the maker's fault that their pilot flew the plane too low and slow.

Jim
 
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Passepartout said:
Note also that Asiana dropped their lawsuit against the TV station that used the fictitious names of the crew, as well as their suit against Boeing.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear. The TV error is the least of their worries.
 
Today -

Another Korean Airlines problem - over shooting the runway in Japan - on landing it ran off the runway.
 
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