Asiana Boeing 777 crashes in San Francisco

[MULTIZ321]

Asiana Airlines Says Pilot of Crashed Plane was on First Training Flight

Asiana Airlines Says Pilot of Crashed Plane was on First Training Flight with Boeing 777 - from Reuters/ BusinessInsider.com


Richard

 

[pjrose]

I spent 17 years as a Navy Pilot flying the P-3 and three years flight instructing in Pensacola in the T-34c. . . .

This mishap was close to being a safety report. It is unfortunate for the pilots, crew, passengers, families and all involved. We can only hope that things change so it doesn't happen again.

Thank you for your long detailed post. I don't understand all the terms, but I still learned a lot.
PJ

 

[SMHarman]

NYT has been pretty quiet on the cause up until now, just posting the facts.

This is still facts but those facts certainly lead the reader to pilot error as the conclusion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/08/us/san-francisco-plane-crash.html?hp&_r=0

The head of the National Transportation Safety Board said Sunday that the pilots came in too slowly, took too long to realize it and tried to abort the landing seconds before the crash. The South Korean Transport Ministry said the co-pilot, Lee Kang-guk, who had only 43 hours of experience flying a 777, was at the controls at the time of the accident. It was Mr. Lee’s first time piloting a 777 into the San Francisco airport, an Asiana spokeswoman said.

“For now, this itself should not be cited as if it were the cause of the accident,” said Chang Man-hee, a senior aviation policy official at the transport ministry. “Mr. Lee himself was a veteran pilot going through what every pilot has to when switching to a new type of plane.”

In a dramatic moment-by-moment account, the N.T.S.B.’s chairwoman, Deborah A. P. Hersman, suggested that crew members had little inkling of the impending crash until about seven seconds before impact, when one is heard on a cockpit recorder calling for an increase in speed. The call came too late. Three seconds later, an alarm sounded a warning that the plane was about to stall, Ms. Hersman said. One-and-a-half seconds before impact, the pilots advanced the throttles to get more power in an attempt to avert a crash. But before the plane could gain altitude, it hit the sea wall, snapping off its tail section before skidding to a stop and catching fire.

 

[SMHarman]

One thing that has always bothered me is that pilot error is used as a cause way too often. One of the first accident reports I read was a P-3 crash in the Philippines in 1980. The aircraft had a catastrophic engine failure climbing through 20,000. The explosion of the #3 engine knocked out the #4 engine. It also caused a chips light on the #2 engine. The plane was heavy dumping fuel all the way back to the airport and trying to land in Cubi Point. The approach was around midnight in a heavy thunderstorm. When the pilots lower the gear about five miles from touchdown, the aircraft did not have enough power to stay on glideslope and ended up crashing into the bay about a mile short of the runway.

The investigation report stated the cause was pilot error. Most of the pilots in the Navy would not have been able to save that one. Pilots always get the blame. It goes with the job.

tompalm, if you take that quote in context with the paragraph above I was clearly inferring that pilot error is not the only leading cause of 777 problems on final. Though the NYT article i posted above seems to lead back to pilot error.

 

[tompalm]

Microburst? Windshear?

Not likely. There was none reported in the area prior to or after the crash. Also, the weather was good.

The NTSB has already started releasing information and stated tonight that seven seconds prior to the crash one of the pilots called airspeed slow and the pilots added more power. At 1.5 seconds prior to crash, there was a call for a go around. The aircraft speed was well below target speed at 137 knots and the engines were at idle. They also heard rudder shakers, or stall warning going off during the last seconds of the flight. When the engines are at idle, it takes a couple seconds to get thrust after power is added. So, 1.5 seconds was not enough time to stop the descent and recover from the situation.

At this point, there is no question the accident was caused by pilot error. The information released by the NYT article stating that the pilot was new to the aircraft and in-training provides more evidence that the pilot flying did not have very much experience in the 777 aircraft. The First Officer might have been insecure about telling the Captain that his speed was slow or to go around and only made one call out. He should have made continuous calls outs as the situation got worse.

If I wanted to speculate on this, I would say that the Captain thought he would be ok being slow and dragging it in. When he got the rudder shakers, he added power, but it was too late.

Being low and dragging it in is often a term used in non precision approaches were the aircraft make a rapid descent to minimum descent altitude after final approach fix. This worked well when the ceiling, or cloud layer was at 1000 feet and the aircraft could find clear weather at MDA of 500 feet. The problem is that it takes a lot of power to hold level fight when the gear and flaps are down and the tendency is to get slow.

Most carriers in the US have stopped doing that type of approach. If a non precision approach was the only approach available at Aloha, we were required to fly a constant rate of descent to MDA that would continue until the aircraft touched down. This can easily be set up in the flight computer and is available on the 777.

The training and flight standards at foreign airlines are not even close to what the pilots and crews learn in the US. The Air France crash that happened a couple years ago was a result of two First Officers flying together in the cockpit that didn't make the correct recovery to stall warning. The result of that was that all Air France pilots received additional training for stall recovery, or what to do when stall warning comes on.

Training and procedures will improve after this accident. It is unfortunate that it takes an accident before changes are made.

 

[Phill12]

For all of you giving every excuse possible the report today in San Francisco and Morning Joe reports this morning are that it was pilots error all the way!
Plane at five miles out was to high and fast and the pilot had to drop and slow speed fast. He was landing to low and stall speed and plane just dropped. Reports state this pilot was training on this plane and had about 43 hours of training and that was it.
Recorder showed co-pilot telling pilot to speed up and then go around for another try.
This country was band a few years ago in the major US airports because of pilots lack of training. One of the problems is reported in cockpit that pilots don't listen to their co-pilots [deleted]
Clear weather viewing for 10 miles and San Francisco has one of the best safety records of all airports so no point on trying to pass the buck.
PILOT ERROR!

PHILL12

 

[vacationdoc]

Landing video

Here is a video of the landing. It looks like Mr. Hayes may have been at the public park at Coyote Point, very near SFO and a favorite place of mine. DH took the early flight from SFO to Houston that morning. Hats off to all who helped so many survivors.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...ane-sf-plane-crash-on-cam.courtesy-fred-hayes

 

[puppymommo]

When you see the video it is a wonder that only 2 people were killed.

 

[x3 skier]

For all of you giving every excuse possible the report today in San Francisco and Morning Joe reports this morning are that it was pilots error all the way!
Plane at five miles out was to high and fast and the pilot had to drop and slow speed fast. He was landing to low and stall speed and plane just dropped. Reports state this pilot was training on this plane and had about 43 hours of training and that was it.
Recorder showed co-pilot telling pilot to speed up and then go around for another try.
This country was band a few years ago in the major US airports because of pilots lack of training. One of the problems is reported in cockpit that pilots don't listen to their co-pilots [deleted]
Clear weather viewing for 10 miles and San Francisco has one of the best safety records of all airports so no point on trying to pass the buck.
PILOT ERROR!

PHILL12

Not had our morning coffee yet?

Cheers

 

[DeniseM]

Folks - Please stick to the topic, and refrain from making derogatory comments about the [*country of origin.]

*Clarification: I am referring to derogatory comments about Koreans - not discussions about pilot training.

 

[kwindham]

So sad for all involved

 

[rleigh]

I think some of us here are getting a little too touchy about the speculating.

Speculating is normal in this situation, and we all speculate based on our own knowledge and experience; there is nothing wrong with that. We can learn a lot when we speculate---keeping in mind it's someone saying something on a discussion board; take it for what it's worth.

(Denise wasn't even speculating. Low speed can be caused by a mechanical problem.)

And as for x3 skier's comments about certain groups of pilots: if it's true that some pilots in some parts of the world are not trained well for some types of planes, then that is reality, PC or not.

 

[SMHarman]

The training and flight standards at foreign airlines are not even close to what the pilots and crews learn in the US. The Air France crash that happened a couple years ago was a result of two First Officers flying together in the cockpit that didn't make the correct recovery to stall warning. The result of that was that all Air France pilots received additional training for stall recovery, or what to do when stall warning comes on.

Training and procedures will improve after this accident. It is unfortunate that it takes an accident before changes are made.

That's a pretty sweeping allegation.

The faulty, but AF deferred replacement pitot tubes and the inconsistent pull up push down stall guidance between airframe manufacturers also were major contributors.

A big change from that was push down to get airspeed and thicker air where the flight envelope is broader.

The CRJ FL400 club boys (who were trained to US standards) also learned the hard way that high altitude flying leaves less margin for error. AF pilot training was not the primary cause. Steps could have been taken before that Plane even got airborne.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2

 

[x3 skier]

The faulty, but AF deferred replacement pitot tubes and the inconsistent pull up push down stall guidance between airframe manufacturers also were major contributors.

I know of no aircraft where you pull up to recover from a stall unless you are inverted. I do not know all airplanes but I would be interested in which manufacturer(s) have issued guidance to pull up to recover from a stall.

The Air France disaster was basically poor flying skills at its heart with many other factors contributing.

Cheers

 

[x3 skier]

From a UA 747 Pilot

For those interested in an eyewitness report.

"On July 6, 2013 at approximately 1827Z I was the 747-400 relief F/O on flt 885, ID326/06 SFO-KIX. I was a witness to the Asiana Flt 214 accident. We had taxied to hold short of runway 28L at SFO on taxiway F, and were waiting to rectify a HAZMAT cargo issue as well as our final weights before we could run our before takeoff checklist and depart. As we waited on taxiway F heading East, just prior to the perpendicular holding area, all three pilots took notice of the Asiana 777 on short final. I noticed the aircraft looked low on glidepath and had a very high deck angle compared to what seemed “normal”. I then noticed at the apparent descent rate and closure to the runway environment the aircraft looked as though it was going to impact the approach lights mounted on piers in the SF Bay. The aircraft made a fairly drastic looking pull up in the last few feet and it appeared and sounded as if they had applied maximum thrust. However the descent path they were on continued and the thrust applied didn't appear to come soon enough to prevent impact. The tail cone and empennage of the 777 impacted the bulkhead seawall and departed the airplane and the main landing gear sheared off instantly. This created a long debris field along the arrival end of 28L, mostly along the right side of 28L. We saw the fuselage, largely intact, slide down the runway and out of view of our cockpit. We heard much confusion and quick instructions from SFO Tower and a few moments later heard an aircraft go around over the runway 28 complex. We realized within a few moments that we were apparently unharmed so I got on the PA and instructed everyone to remain seated and that we were safe.

We all acknowledged if we had been located between Runways 28R and 28L on taxiway F we would have likely suffered damage to the right side aft section of our aircraft from the 777.

Approximately two minutes later I was looking out the left side cockpit windows and noticed movement on the right side of Runway 28L. Two survivors were stumbling but moving abeam the Runway “28L” marking on the North side of the runway. I saw one survivor stand up, walk a few feet, then appear to squat down. The other appeared to be a woman and was walking, then fell off to her side and remained on the ground until rescue personnel arrived. The Captain was on the radio and I told him to tell tower what I had seen, but I ended up taking the microphone instead of relaying through him. I told SFO tower that there appeared to be survivors on the right side of the runway and they needed to send assistance immediately. It seemed to take a very long time for vehicles and assistance to arrive for these victims. The survivors I saw were approximately 1000-1500' away from the fuselage and had apparently been ejected from the fuselage.

We made numerous PAs to the passengers telling them any information we had, which we acknowledged was going to change rapidly, and I left the cockpit to check on the flight attendants and the overall mood of the passengers, as I was the third pilot and not in a control seat. A couple of our flight attendants were shaken up but ALL were doing an outstanding and extremely professional job of handling the passenger's needs and providing calm comfort to them. One of the flight attendants contacted unaccompanied minors' parents to ensure them their children were safe and would be taken care of by our crew. Their demeanor and professionalism during this horrific event was noteworthy. I went to each cabin and spoke to the passengers asking if everyone was OK and if they needed any assistance, and gave them information personally, to include telling them what I saw from the cockpit. I also provided encouragement that we would be OK, we'd tell them everything we learn and to please relax and be patient and expect this is going to be a long wait. The passenger mood was concerned but generally calm. A few individuals were emotional as nearly every passenger on the left side of the aircraft saw the fuselage and debris field going over 100 knots past our aircraft only 300' away. By this point everyone had looked out the windows and could see the smoke plume from the 777. A number of passengers also noticed what I had seen with the survivors out near the end of 28L expressing concern that the rescue effort appeared slow for those individuals that had been separated from the airplane wreckage.

We ultimately had a tug come out and tow us back to the gate, doing a 3 point turn in the hold short area of 28L. We were towed to gate 101 where the passengers deplaned. Captain Jim Abel met us at the aircraft and gave us information he had and asked if we needed any assistance or hotel rooms for the evening. Captain Herlihy and F/O Ishikawa went to hotels and I went to my home an hour away in the East Bay. "


Cheers

 

[Ken555]

For those interested in an eyewitness report.

Thanks for posting this.

 

[tompalm]

I know of no aircraft where you pull up to recover from a stall unless you are inverted. I do not know all airplanes but I would be interested in which manufacturer(s) have issued guidance to pull up to recover from a stall. Cheers

Concur. The stall recovery for the Boeing 737-800 was to immediately add max thrust and hold the nose pitch attitude between 0 - 3 degrees of pitch up, or level flight until the stall warning stopped and vertical speed was leveled off. After that, increase speed to target speed and start a climb. If the pilot raised the nose, it would cause the aircraft stall to get worse. I am pretty sure that the 777 would have a similar recovery procedure.

If I was speculating what happened on this SFO flight, the pilot flying got stall warning and called for go around by adding max power and raising the nose to climb out. However, the power was not available yet and the aircraft stall got worse. The NTSB is reporting that stall warning came on four seconds prior to impact. If the pilot flying had added power as soon as he got that, they might have had a chance.

Regarding the Air France flight - The pilots got dealt a bad hand. They were in level flight with power on and got stall warning. Totally confused during the process, they tried everything including raising the nose and moving power to flight idle. Nighttime and bad weather is a pilot's worst nightmare to get something like that. Even if they had done everything right, it would have been difficult to safely fly that aircraft. Two low time First Officers in the cockpit without a Captain is something only foreign airlines would do.

I could write more about the stories I heard about pilot training in China, Korea or India. To make it short, my friends that were Captains at Aloha called the Chief Pilot for one of the airlines in India and they got hired over the phone. When they arrived in India, someone looked in their logbook, they had one flight and after that were on their own with a low time First Officer from India. There is no training at some airlines, or they call it OTJ, on the job training.

 

[Clemson Fan]

For those interested in an eyewitness report.

"On July 6, 2013 at approximately 1827Z I was the 747-400 relief F/O on flt 885, ID326/06 SFO-KIX. I was a witness to the Asiana Flt 214 accident. We had taxied to hold short of runway 28L at SFO on taxiway F, and were waiting to rectify a HAZMAT cargo issue as well as our final weights before we could run our before takeoff checklist and depart. As we waited on taxiway F heading East, just prior to the perpendicular holding area, all three pilots took notice of the Asiana 777 on short final. I noticed the aircraft looked low on glidepath and had a very high deck angle compared to what seemed “normal”. I then noticed at the apparent descent rate and closure to the runway environment the aircraft looked as though it was going to impact the approach lights mounted on piers in the SF Bay. The aircraft made a fairly drastic looking pull up in the last few feet and it appeared and sounded as if they had applied maximum thrust. However the descent path they were on continued and the thrust applied didn't appear to come soon enough to prevent impact. The tail cone and empennage of the 777 impacted the bulkhead seawall and departed the airplane and the main landing gear sheared off instantly. This created a long debris field along the arrival end of 28L, mostly along the right side of 28L. We saw the fuselage, largely intact, slide down the runway and out of view of our cockpit. We heard much confusion and quick instructions from SFO Tower and a few moments later heard an aircraft go around over the runway 28 complex. We realized within a few moments that we were apparently unharmed so I got on the PA and instructed everyone to remain seated and that we were safe.

We all acknowledged if we had been located between Runways 28R and 28L on taxiway F we would have likely suffered damage to the right side aft section of our aircraft from the 777.

Approximately two minutes later I was looking out the left side cockpit windows and noticed movement on the right side of Runway 28L. Two survivors were stumbling but moving abeam the Runway “28L” marking on the North side of the runway. I saw one survivor stand up, walk a few feet, then appear to squat down. The other appeared to be a woman and was walking, then fell off to her side and remained on the ground until rescue personnel arrived. The Captain was on the radio and I told him to tell tower what I had seen, but I ended up taking the microphone instead of relaying through him. I told SFO tower that there appeared to be survivors on the right side of the runway and they needed to send assistance immediately. It seemed to take a very long time for vehicles and assistance to arrive for these victims. The survivors I saw were approximately 1000-1500' away from the fuselage and had apparently been ejected from the fuselage.

We made numerous PAs to the passengers telling them any information we had, which we acknowledged was going to change rapidly, and I left the cockpit to check on the flight attendants and the overall mood of the passengers, as I was the third pilot and not in a control seat. A couple of our flight attendants were shaken up but ALL were doing an outstanding and extremely professional job of handling the passenger's needs and providing calm comfort to them. One of the flight attendants contacted unaccompanied minors' parents to ensure them their children were safe and would be taken care of by our crew. Their demeanor and professionalism during this horrific event was noteworthy. I went to each cabin and spoke to the passengers asking if everyone was OK and if they needed any assistance, and gave them information personally, to include telling them what I saw from the cockpit. I also provided encouragement that we would be OK, we'd tell them everything we learn and to please relax and be patient and expect this is going to be a long wait. The passenger mood was concerned but generally calm. A few individuals were emotional as nearly every passenger on the left side of the aircraft saw the fuselage and debris field going over 100 knots past our aircraft only 300' away. By this point everyone had looked out the windows and could see the smoke plume from the 777. A number of passengers also noticed what I had seen with the survivors out near the end of 28L expressing concern that the rescue effort appeared slow for those individuals that had been separated from the airplane wreckage.

We ultimately had a tug come out and tow us back to the gate, doing a 3 point turn in the hold short area of 28L. We were towed to gate 101 where the passengers deplaned. Captain Jim Abel met us at the aircraft and gave us information he had and asked if we needed any assistance or hotel rooms for the evening. Captain Herlihy and F/O Ishikawa went to hotels and I went to my home an hour away in the East Bay. "


Cheers

I find it shocking that nobody was clamoring to get off that plane to provide immediate first aid assistance! You have clear survivors on the ground and a mass casualty situation right in front of you! Geez, if I were a passenger I'd be yelling at the captain and crew to gather up all the first aid equipment on that plane and to exit ASAP to try and provide some aid! I sure as hell wouldn't be asking for another coffee or soda!

 

[x3 skier]

I find it shocking that nobody was clamoring to get off that plane to provide immediate first aid assistance! You have clear survivors on the ground and a mass casualty situation right in front of you! Geez, if I were a passenger I'd be yelling at the captain and crew to gather up all the first aid equipment on that plane and to exit ASAP to try and provide some aid! I sure as hell wouldn't be asking for another coffee or soda!

Are you suggesting it would be a good idea the 747 crew abandon a 750000 pound Aircaft loaded with fuel and passengers via emergency exits and armed with band aids, provide first aid or attempt a rescue from an aircraft that may be about to explode very nearby? The airport fire and rescue people who are infinitely more well trained and equipped were already on the way.

Cheers

 

[Clemson Fan]

Are you suggesting it would be a good idea the 747 crew abandon a 750000 pound Aircaft loaded with fuel and passengers via emergency exits and armed with band aids, provide first aid or attempt a rescue from an aircraft that may be about to explode very nearby? The airport fire and rescue people who are infinitely more well trained and equipped were already on the way.

Cheers

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting! Is somebody going to hotwire the plane and steal it? By their own admission they were stuck where they were and needed to be towed back.

If you think the plane is going to catch fire then if anything you should be out there trying to help the disoriented and hurt people get away from it. I'm a physician and I would've been busting that door open and deploying the chute if I needed to if I saw these living casualties scattered about the runway and trying to get off a plane that's potentially about to burn. There's no way in hell I would've just sat in my seat.

 

[x3 skier]

Good for you. Next time you are in a position to unilaterally decide to activate an emergency exit on an airliner for whatever reason, do as you see fit.

Cheers

 

[Passepartout]

I find it shocking that nobody was clamoring to get off that plane to provide immediate first aid assistance! You have clear survivors on the ground and a mass casualty situation right in front of you! Geez, if I were a passenger I'd be yelling at the captain and crew to gather up all the first aid equipment on that plane and to exit ASAP to try and provide some aid! I sure as hell wouldn't be asking for another coffee or soda!

I laud your feelings of wanting to be of assistance, but under the circumstances the last thing the responders needed would be a few hundred other people wandering about and confusing them with who's who. A 747 sits 2 stories above the tarmac and has no self-contained means to deplane. The cost to deploy emergency chutes is considerable, and use of same would no doubt have caused additional injury. The crew (of the 747) was told to hold position awaiting instructions. Had a call gone out for medically trained personnel, and it could be done safely, I'm sure they would have been paged.

Glad you wouldn't have had to waste a perfectly good coffee or soda should that have happened.

Your feelings are understandable, but not well thought through.

Jim

 

[Phydeaux]

Reports are many pasengers stopped and retrieved their baggage from the overheads, and were found wandering around the debris field with their luggage.


Further, from a cultural standpoint, it is customary to not question the PIC. Let's see, if you were sitting in the seat next to the PIC and knew he was going to crash the aircraft, do you think it would be offensive to speak up and SCREAM a command??

These are some mighty strange folk, by my standards.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting! Is somebody going to hotwire the plane and steal it? By their own admission they were stuck where they were and needed to be towed back.

If you think the plane is going to catch fire then if anything you should be out there trying to help the disoriented and hurt people get away from it. I'm a physician and I would've been busting that door open and deploying the chute if I needed to if I saw these living casualties scattered about the runway and trying to get off a plane that's potentially about to burn. There's no way in hell I would've just sat in my seat.

Like the person who sees a collapsed co-worker lying next to a hose and rushes in to help. So now you have two people on the ground

I previously had responsibilities in planning for and directing emergency response to disasters and accidents. One of the cardinal principles is to resist the urge to rush in and help unless you know what you are doing and can assure your own personal safety.

If, as you assert, the plane was about to catch fire, the last thing anyone should be doing is adding to the casualty toll.

 

[x3 skier]

Like the person who sees a collapsed co-worker lying next to a hose and rushes in to help. So now you have two people on the ground

I previously had responsibilities in planning for and directing emergency response to disasters and accidents. One of the cardinal principles is to resist the urge to rush in and help unless you know what you are doing and can assure your own personal safety.

If, as you assert, the plane was about to catch fire, the last thing anyone should be doing is adding to the casualty toll.

As you and I were taught and taught others, you don't bring another victim to the scene.

If someone has skills they believe would be helpful, ask for the incident commander and offer assistance. In this case, if there was a Physician aboard the 747, the best approach would be to contact one of the crew and ask them to notify the system of your skills and willingness to assist rather than actuating an emergency slide and adding to the already existing problems.

Cheers