Are any timeshare systems seeing an appreciation in value over 15 years ago?

[rickandcindy23]

I am seeing a downturn in nearly all of my ownerships in resale value, even when we purchased resale a number of years ago:

Wyndham's lowest maintenance fees resorts that we bought in 2007-2009 were not free back then, now they are free. We paid a lot for our Kingsgate and gave a bunch away recently. Wyndham is partly to blame for that because a flood of resales hit starting 2-3 years back after they changed the rules on owners.

WorldMark was .40 per point when we bought 15 years ago, now TUG members are reporting that it's less than .10.

Marriott floating weeks have lost value. What I paid for my first week at Willow Ridge back in 2012 is more than my week is worth now, about double, actually.

Shadow Ridge Village weeks saw a huge increase last year, which subsequently devalued our ownership. I was trying to sell a few but resales are way lower than when we bought 3 years ago. I will hold 'em and not fold 'em. I can rent for MF's for a few years.

I believe inflation has hurt timeshares generally, and I think Airbnb and VRBO have played a part in devaluing timeshares.

I am not going to say that Westin has "lost" value on the resale market because I don't know what it was before we purchased. I have purchased another week for slightly less through a TUG member. I have another one that is an even better deal in the works.

 

[CO skier]

Wyndham's lowest maintenance fees resorts that we bought in 2007-2009 were not free back then, now they are free. We paid a lot for our Kingsgate and gave a bunch away recently. Wyndham is partly to blame for that because a flood of resales hit starting 2-3 years back after they changed the rules on owners.

WorldMark was .40 per point when we bought 15 years ago, now TUG members are reporting that it's less than .10.

Club Wyndham prices were not that much higher 18 years ago (2006)

Prices really are crazy

I've been reading posts lately about the resale prices, so I was bored and I just pulled up ebay and sorted by time ending soonest. So when I started watching it was a 105K contract CONVERTED and the price 20 minutes ago was $15.50. Then 20 minutes later THIS!:eek::eek::eek::eek...

tugbbs.com

What value there was then mostly evaporated in the 2008 Great Recession, and Club Wyndham joined the $1 resale timeshare crowd on EBay.

What is a timeshare other than a commitment to ongoing, ever increasing maintenance fees? I get plenty of value from the maintenance fees I pay, and it is a huge bargain compared to comparable rentals, but "value" is in the eye of the beholder (owner).

Plus, there will always be more timeshares on the market than there is demand. Economics 101 teaches that will lead to lower prices. Add in competition from Airbnb, VRBO, etc. that did not exist 15 years ago, and the downward trend in timeshare resale prices becomes a one-way street.

Lastly, there is no question removing VIP benefits from resale contracts eliminated the price support for low maintenance fee resale Club Wyndham contracts, and the only value there, now, is in the few hundred dollars maintenance fee savings per year versus Club Wyndham Access or other higher maintenance fee contracts.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I bought Kingsgate and Patriot's Place and Smoky Mountains back then, and they were not free. I had a lot of great advice on TUG as to what we should buy, and lower MF's was the goal. We spent a lot of money on those deeds. I have some of the paperwork saved on my computer. $6,000 for a 310,000 Smoky Mountains. Angel Fire was almost that much for 154,000 points, but we are keeping Angelfire. It's too cheap in MF's to give away. I also paid $3,000 for 238K Kingsgate.

Wyndham is a fairly good product. I like that they keep the fees under control. I think the resorts individually are very well managed. They have gone too long between updates at some resorts. Bali Hai really needs an update for some of the more worn units. We own there, so I can comment on that. Panama needs major updates, and I think that's happening now. I am anxious to go back again and stay.

Pagosa Springs had a mixed bag of units both times we stayed. Now I ask for Peregrine ahead of time. I am not staying in an old unit with dangerous stairs. I heard that one is getting updated, Village Pointe.

 

[iftravel]

DVC certainly appreciated.

 

[dioxide45]

I think, other than ultra prime properties/weeks, we will continue to see this trend.

DVC certainly appreciated.

It has, but I've noticed that DVC seems to be a little more volatile and reacts to the market more. It tends to go up and down where other timeshares go down. Overall it does seem to go up more than it goes down, so that is a good thing. Timing a sale though for the best resale value isn't always as easy.

 

[frank808]

All my DVC have increased in price. I can sell my SSR points(resale) and VGC(direct and resale)for double what I paid. VGF and Aulani (direct) would not be double what I paid but still make a profit. We got lucky buying our first DVC contract all those years ago before my son was born.

HGVC I would be losing out on the resale price. I paid about $1000 a week (on average) for each deeded week. I am fine with getting nothing back on resale as it has been a great 16 years of awesome vacations.

MVC I will lose $8 per point since I bought 5K direct points to enroll a bunch of weeks. This cost me about $2300 for each week to enroll in the club. Will take about 9 years to break even on this with free exchange and lock off fees. It has been almost 6 years since enrolled so almost to break even point.

Willowridge, Grand Chateau, Grand Vista, Harbour Lake platinum weeks I have bought for as high as $2000(with closing) and as low as sellers paying me(free with no closing costs and week to use). My average is less than $1000 per MVC week.

KoOlina floating weeks I think would break even. Maybe lose a thousand or make a thousand each week.

MVC Grand Residence fractionals I could definitely sell for more than I paid resale.

Yes, I agree with rickandcindy that the resale price I paid for floating weeks in MVC and HGVC would be less then purchase price. But on average it is not much of a loss if I gave all the HGVC and MVC floating weeks all away right now. My family, friends and myself have had so many great vacations and memories over the past 16 years that the small purchase price compared to MF makes it all worth it.

Buy timeshare weeks at a decent price resale. That way, when at worst, you need to give them away, it will not be that big of a loss. But you have those decades of CHERISHED memories for less than the price of a hotel room.

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[WaikikiFirst]

anyone mention inflation, as in capital thrown at TSs mostly not even keeping up with inflation.
"Plastics"? Maybe "Demographics". maybe (almost) everyone internalized that MFs will rise just as quickly as hotel room prices will?

 

[montygz]

I see a similar Grandview Las Vegas to what I bought 7 years ago sold for $270 on eBay, $20 more than what I paid! But I paid $250. Or was it $200? I can't recall. In the end, it is really just a giveaway unit.

Anyway, what I have noticed over the years is that timeshare systems have done all they can to make resale units less and less valuable by stripping away benefits.

Even Disney has done this, taking away benefits from non-developer purchasers.

Meanwhile, there is much more competition for timeshares from rental properties that don't require the commitment of endless fees. Why buy a generic timeshare in Orlando when you can rent a house for about the same money?

We all know the flaws of the financial model for timesharing, so expecting any value out of these at all is a reach. They may be an investment in vacations, but they are not a financial investment.

However, they can still be a great value if you use them well and if you don't pay a developer price.

 

[RX8]

My first timeshare, Grand Pacific Palisades in Carlsbad, CA, was purchased from the resort's internal resale department. It was a little more expensive than true resale, but they threw in the HGVC enrollment at no extra charge. I didn't even pay the activation fee. At the time, one could buy a Grand Pacific resort private via resale and, if it was already enrolled in HGVC, the new buyer had the option to enroll their new week. HGVC changed that a couple of years ago and now the HGVC enrollment goes "POOF" upon resale (HGVC also "influenced" Grand Pacific to close their resale department because it was hurting retail sales). The new buyer now only gets the Grand Pacific deed/week. This is true even for those that purchased their Grand Pacific Resort direct from HGVC at retail prices. This is one factor that has helped diminish the resale value of my week. I am making nowhere near what I paid if I sold it today. That said, even if I gave the week away, I would still consider this a fantastic purchase.

About six years after I purchased the Grand Pacific week, I purchased DVC resale. Found a good deal on 160 points at Grand California. I could sell this in a matter of hours if I needed to and still come out way ahead of my purchase price. If I only knew then what I know now, I would have purchased Grand Californian retail back when it opened in 2009. Retail prices were only $112/point and yet it still took 1.5 years to sell out. At the time though, I had a 3-year-old and a newborn. Money wasn't growing on trees then and we were in an economic downturn. I worked for a major auto manufacturer and there were questions about whether or not I would have a job. I put my family priorities over a timeshare. Dang it! If only I could go back in time and have a conversation with myself - "Don't sweat it! These are family memories which are PRICELESS. You can do this. Even if you DID lose your job you could go to work at Disneyland. It would be like Disneyland paying your DVC dues for you making the purchase almost FREE!

 

[bnoble]

The acquisition cost of my portfolio is slightly negative---I spent a thousand or two for a unit here and there, but also had a year's free use on a couple that I took on at no cost, so it all comes out in the wash. Even if I had to pay a few bucks to get rid of each one, I've gotten good value out of them.

Whenever I am considering buying any timeshare, I evaluate it under the assumption that it will be worth $0 when I wish to dispose of it. My usual question is: How long do I have to own this unit to break even if I give it away at the end? If that is a reasonable number of years (less than ten, and preferably less than five) when assuming a range of reasonable inflation rates then it's worth considering. If there is residual value at the end, I consider it found money.

This probably eliminates some very high-cost ownerships, but not all of them. For example, Disney's Saratoga Springs at $90pp, amortized at 5% over 10 years, gives a first-year cost of $19.54 per point ($8.14 dues, $11.40 acquisition)---that's close enough to the cost of renting points on the open market that I'd consider that purchase, but I would have to think about it. To be fair 5% is probably a little high. At 4%, the cost is $19.06.

 

[iftravel]

If DVC implemented a mandatory enrollment fee / education fee like MVC, I’m sure it will destroy its resale value immediately.

 

[dioxide45]

If DVC implemented a mandatory enrollment fee / education fee like MVC, I’m sure it will destroy its resale value immediately.

It would likely push the price per point down by whatever that fee is.

 

[iftravel]

It would likely push the price per point down by whatever that fee is.

Not just that. The liquidity / volume of resale DVC will immediately dry up just like MVC. On eBay, I’ve already seen MVC sold at zero.

 

[dioxide45]

Not just that. The liquidity / volume of resale DVC will immediately dry up just like MVC. On eBay, I’ve already seen MVC sold at zero.

But would instituting a transfer fee drive up supply on the resale side? I don't know that it would do that. Maintenance fee increases for MVC seem to be what is pushing the huge increase in supply and driving down the price. I don't think a punitive transfer fee would do that. It just changes who gets the money in the end. More goes to DVC than the owner.

 

[frank808]

My first timeshare, Grand Pacific Palisades in Carlsbad, CA, was purchased from the resort's internal resale department. It was a little more expensive than true resale, but they threw in the HGVC enrollment at no extra charge. I didn't even pay the activation fee. At the time, one could buy a Grand Pacific resort private via resale and, if it was already enrolled in HGVC, the new buyer had the option to enroll their new week. HGVC changed that a couple of years ago and now the HGVC enrollment goes "POOF" upon resale (HGVC also "influenced" Grand Pacific to close their resale department because it was hurting retail sales). The new buyer now only gets the Grand Pacific deed/week. This is true even for those that purchased their Grand Pacific Resort direct from HGVC at retail prices. This is one factor that has helped diminish the resale value of my week. I am making nowhere near what I paid if I sold it today. That said, even if I gave the week away, I would still consider this a fantastic purchase.

About six years after I purchased the Grand Pacific week, I purchased DVC resale. Found a good deal on 160 points at Grand California. I could sell this in a matter of hours if I needed to and still come out way ahead of my purchase price. If I only knew then what I know now, I would have purchased Grand Californian retail back when it opened in 2009. Retail prices were only $112/point and yet it still took 1.5 years to sell out. At the time though, I had a 3-year-old and a newborn. Money wasn't growing on trees then and we were in an economic downturn. I worked for a major auto manufacturer and there were questions about whether or not I would have a job. I put my family priorities over a timeshare. Dang it! If only I could go back in time and have a conversation with myself - "Don't sweat it! These are family memories which are PRICELESS. You can do this. Even if you DID lose your job you could go to work at Disneyland. It would be like Disneyland paying your DVC dues for you making the purchase almost FREE!

In 2009, during black friday sale, prices of VGC came down to $90 with all incentives.

Wish I bought more just like you wished. With a 4 year old and economy going bad from housing crisis, wife and I decided it was not prudent to use most of our cash reserves to buy the VGC points we wanted. We settled for half and wish we just went with our first instinct. Just like buying stocks and homes during housing crisis. Wish we bought more, but glad we at least bought some. At the time, we made the most prudent choice and would do the same again knowing it could have gone the other way.

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[dioxide45]

In 2009, during black friday sale, prices of VGC came down to $90 with all incentives.

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At times, they struggled to sell VGC.

 

[frank808]

At times, they struggled to sell VGC.

True that and I could not understand why VGC was so cheap based on the mantra of location, location and location. Plus being the only DVC in California at the time.

Direct at BLT (WDW equivalent of VGC) was going for more direct and resale at the time. Plus there were multiple resorts at Disney World that you could book at.

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[Fido Chuckwagon]

I am seeing a downturn in nearly all of my ownerships in resale value, even when we purchased resale a number of years ago:

Wyndham's lowest maintenance fees resorts that we bought in 2007-2009 were not free back then, now they are free. We paid a lot for our Kingsgate and gave a bunch away recently. Wyndham is partly to blame for that because a flood of resales hit starting 2-3 years back after they changed the rules on owners.

WorldMark was .40 per point when we bought 15 years ago, now TUG members are reporting that it's less than .10.

Marriott floating weeks have lost value. What I paid for my first week at Willow Ridge back in 2012 is more than my week is worth now, about double, actually.

Shadow Ridge Village weeks saw a huge increase last year, which subsequently devalued our ownership. I was trying to sell a few but resales are way lower than when we bought 3 years ago. I will hold 'em and not fold 'em. I can rent for MF's for a few years.

I believe inflation has hurt timeshares generally, and I think Airbnb and VRBO have played a part in devaluing timeshares.

I am not going to say that Westin has "lost" value on the resale market because I don't know what it was before we purchased. I have purchased another week for slightly less through a TUG member. I have another one that is a better deal in the works.

Disney Vacation Club. Someone who bought direct from the developer 15 years ago through DVC might owe CAP gains tax if they sell now, and someone who bought resale (excluding a couple of the resorts that expire in ‘42) likely will.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I think, other than ultra prime properties/weeks, we will continue to see this trend.

It has, but I've noticed that DVC seems to be a little more volatile and reacts to the market more. It tends to go up and down where other timeshares go down. Overall it does seem to go up more than it goes down, so that is a good thing. Timing a sale though for the best resale value isn't always as easy.

The DVC resorts that are getting close to expiration are finally going down.

 

[rickandcindy23]

The DVC resorts that are getting close to expiration are finally going down.

We have our OKW we bought resale about 14 years ago, and I am thinking of getting out of it but then again, I can rent right up until 2042, so I can make $10 X 250 X another 17 years, plus more with inflation. We may just have to pay Disney to extend it, if they offer to do it.

We do have our 1,000 DVC direct purchase of OKW that expires in 2057. I am happy with that purchase.

 

[easyrider]

The Villa Group in Mexico has become three separate groups of opulent resorts. The resale prices vary between memberships but because of the new resort memberships, the prices are quite a bit higher than what they were 15 years ago.

Bill

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I am glad that all but one in my portfolio are resale. If we lose 100% of < $5k paid so what? We've gotten massive trade value compared to renting.

We own resale Westin Kaanapali OF. During Covid those units briefly went up by $5k. Now holding it's value compared to what I paid resale.

I sold an HGVC Vegas about 2 years ago and got close to the original price resale purchase price.

My other resale timeshares are holding their value because they have low MF and big benefits in their system. I paid < $5000 for each of them so even at 0 it is not much loss when we exit.

I have one retail that still hurts because it is only worth about $1500 today. Big lesson.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I forgot completely about Disney. Kind of a stupid thing to forget. I am getting some amazing rentals with DVC Rental Store.

 

[iftravel]

I forgot completely about Disney. Kind of a stupid thing to forget. I am getting some amazing rentals with DVC Rental Store.

Disney keeps expanding - more rental income for you.

https://www.wsj.com/business/disney-d23-expo-theme-parks-b63751fe?mod=Searchresults_pos2&page=2

 

[rickandcindy23]

When our friends bought Hono Koa oceanfront, they paid something like $12,000. They bid the same amount of money on a Sands of Kahana 2 bedroom, which was not accepted through the broker they were using. SOK is free on ebay now. The generic timeshares are losing value to the minus column.

I bought our first Hono Koa every-other-year week for about $1,500 total with closing costs and the $550 transfer fee. That was 5 years after they bought. It was hard to find weeks and I checked ebay and RW often. We now have 2 even, 2 odd and one annual week to make a total of 3 weeks. Now, with the increases in fees, people are giving these away.

Presidential Villas at Grand Palms, AKA Presidential Villas at Plantation Resort, has had a downturn in value. People are giving the weeks away. I paid $2,500 to $3,000 for those. I have sold all but one of the weeks and have a person who will rent my last week every year, so it's not a big deal, but I hope to sell that last one. RCI devalued the week, going from 101 TPU's to 64 in one season. Those had fees of about $600 when we bought. 101 TPU's for $600. I remember it was $6 PP.