Anyone else thinking of dropping out of MVC Destinations program?

[jtdillian]

What is this skim?

What is this skim everyone is always talking about?

 

[SueDonJ]

What is this skim everyone is always talking about?

For an overwhelming majority of Weeks in the Marriott system, if enrolled in the Destination Club they are allotted a fewer amount of Points than it would cost to reserve them in the DC. For example, a Barony Beach Gold OF Week is allotted 3725 DC Points but it costs 4000 to book most 7-day OF intervals that correlate to dates in the Gold season. The difference is what TUGgers call, "skim."

There are a very few exceptions - as he did up-thread TUGger jimf has posted extensively about the DC value he gets from his Frenchmen's Cove weeks. That's because the DC Points Charts don't always align perfectly with the established Weeks Calendars, so then it's sometimes possible to get better DC value if you can take advantage of the lower-Points-cost dates.

Some TUGgers also refer to "skim" when enrolled Weeks do not get the same usage value from DC Points that they do from exchanging in II. It's a valid argument for some who got better II exchange value than like-for-like. But for others who own non-lockoff-3BR or high-Points-allotment Weeks, II didn't always offer like-for-like exchange value anyway.

 

[WFP]

The Skim does provide one additional feature to the weeks owner and that is the ability to start a 7-day stay on any day of the week at their home resort. This as opposed to having to start on a Fri/Sat/Sun.

It would be impossible for every owner to do this if you went to the extreme theoretical. It would lead some dates open for multiple units and some owners unable to book their weeks.

While I don't like the Skim, that is one of the benefits derived from the Skim.

Bill

 

[puckmanfl]

good evening....

Dan...

Where in Florida do you hail from....

maybe someday we can hook up at a local pub and share a glass of "skim" milk!!!:hysterical::whoopie:

I hail from the hockey hotbed of Tampa

Go Bolts..

 

[DanCali]

good evening....

Dan...

Where in Florida do you hail from....

maybe someday we can hook up at a local pub and share a glass of "skim" milk!!!:hysterical::whoopie:

I hail from the hockey hotbed of Tampa

Go Bolts..

I'm in the southeast part.

 

[DanCali]

What is this skim everyone is always talking about?

For an overwhelming majority of Weeks in the Marriott system, if enrolled in the Destination Club they are allotted a fewer amount of Points than it would cost to reserve them in the DC. For example, a Barony Beach Gold OF Week is allotted 3725 DC Points but it costs 4000 to book most 7-day OF intervals that correlate to dates in the Gold season. The difference is what TUGgers call, "skim."

There are a very few exceptions - as he did up-thread TUGger jimf has posted extensively about the DC value he gets from his Frenchmen's Cove weeks. That's because the DC Points Charts don't always align perfectly with the established Weeks Calendars, so then it's sometimes possible to get better DC value if you can take advantage of the lower-Points-cost dates.

Some TUGgers also refer to "skim" when enrolled Weeks do not get the same usage value from DC Points that they do from exchanging in II. It's a valid argument for some who got better II exchange value than like-for-like. But for others who own non-lockoff-3BR or high-Points-allotment Weeks, II didn't always offer like-for-like exchange value anyway.

The definition Sue provided is subjective. Let me try and give you a more objective definition, which reflects how GregT explained it and how I view it.

For most points systems you have "points in = points out".

What that means is that if you add up all the points given to owners for all the units for all the weeks in the points system you get X. Now if you add up all the points it takes to reserve all those same units you get Y. most timeshare systems X=Y. For Marriott X<Y.

This is accomplished by Marriott in the following way: If you choose to covert to points, you get 6%-10% less than the average points needed to reserve a week in your season.

For example, if I take all the Platinum weeks at NCV (weeks 23-51, excluding week 26) and compute the average points required to reserve a week in that season I get approximately 3700 points. Now, if all the owners in that season got the same ~3700 points when converting a week (regardless of whether they intended to visit in July or November) then that would be "fair" in the sense that "points in = points out" and there would be no surplus of points in the aggregate. However, last time I checked, Marriott was offering 3475 to convert one of those weeks to points, approximately 6% less. This shortchanges owners by about 225 points each time they convert to points (~$100-$120). Marriott can potentially use that difference to make its own reservations for the most desirable weeks (you can't work faster than their computers) and rent them out. This is just an example - I'm not sure how they use the surplus of points but there is undeniably a surplus they capture.

Note that this is an "objective" definition in the sense that it looks at what your week should get to obtain "points in = points out" (the average points required to book a week in the season) versus what it actually gets. As Greg puts it - any way you look at it, you get 90 to 94 cents for your dollar in terms of points conversion. This is essentially an extra fee you pay each time you convert to points (those touted II fee savings are not really all there...)

The reverse skim argument, which people who like to travel weekdays and shoulder season raise, goes as follows: NCV Platinum season runs from June to December. if I like NCV in November (say I go on each Thanksgiving), I need only 2900 points to reserve that week. That is much less than 4725 points needed for the July and August weeks, when most people want to travel with their kids who are on break. I would be better off converting to points, getting the 3475 points, using 2900 to book my reservation and having almost 600 points left over to book another short reservation elsewhere or rent those points out. This is true... but it's true even if Marriott gave owners 3000 points for converting their weeks to points (you'd still have 100 points left over). Should owners be happy if they got 3000 points? Is 3000 points fair? Is 3475 fair? What is the "fair" number?

I'd argue it has to be "points in = points out"; or about 3700 points in the example above (note that - referring to Sue's explanation - it still won't allow me to reserve a summer week with points since a summer week is 4725 points, but at least there will be no surplus in the aggregate, and therefore no skim based on my definition, if they did that). Marriott doesn't need to capture a hidden fee on this. They already got fees when people enrolled and when they pay annual club dues.

 

[m61376]

And to add to DanCali's excellent explanation above: there are several properties where not only owners were allotted an aggregate of less points than required to reserve weeks in the season, there are many properties where owners weren't allotted enough points to reserve any weeks, or at least most of the weeks, in their season.

 

[dioxide45]

(those touted II fee savings are not really all there...)

For those that never convert to DC points, those touted II savings are fantastic. One is either using II or using DC with any given week, so I don't think the DC point skim has any effect on II exchange fees.

 

[billymach4]

For those that never convert to DC points, those touted II savings are fantastic. One is either using II or using DC with any given week, so I don't think the DC point skim has any effect on II exchange fees.

Really? How do you explain that when I own resale weeks that straddle the June 2010 date. I own 2 weeks pre June 2010, and 1 week post June 2010. What is Marriott going to do for me?

Or to a resale owner that owns post June 2010.

If I dive into the DC I have to pay the DC club fees, and an II membership? Or if I own post June 2010 then I have to buy points and rent points, and pay DC dues, and an II membership.

 

[SueDonJ]

The definition Sue provided is subjective. Let me try and give you a more objective definition, which reflects how GregT explained it and how I view it.

For most points systems you have "points in = points out".

What that means is that if you add up all the points given to owners for all the units for all the weeks in the points system you get X. Now if you add up all the points it takes to reserve all those same units you get Y. most timeshare systems X=Y. For Marriott X<Y.

This is accomplished by Marriott in the following way: If you choose to covert to points, you get 6%-10% less than the average points needed to reserve a week in your season.

For example, if I take all the Platinum weeks at NCV (weeks 23-51, excluding week 26) and compute the average points required to reserve a week in that season I get approximately 3700 points. Now, if all the owners in that season got the same ~3700 points when converting a week (regardless of whether they intended to visit in July or November) then that would be "fair" in the sense that "points in = points out" and there would be no surplus of points in the aggregate. However, last time I checked, Marriott was offering 3475 to convert one of those weeks to points, approximately 6% less. This shortchanges owners by about 225 points each time they convert to points (~$100-$120). Marriott can potentially use that difference to make its own reservations for the most desirable weeks (you can't work faster than their computers) and rent them out. This is just an example - I'm not sure how they use the surplus of points but there is undeniably a surplus they capture.

Note that this is an "objective" definition in the sense that it looks at what your week should get to obtain "points in = points out" (the average points required to book a week in the season) versus what it actually gets. As Greg puts it - any way you look at it, you get 90 to 94 cents for your dollar in terms of points conversion. This is essentially an extra fee you pay each time you convert to points (those touted II fee savings are not really all there...)

The reverse skim argument, which people who like to travel weekdays and shoulder season raise, goes as follows: NCV Platinum season runs from June to December. if I like NCV in November (say I go on each Thanksgiving), I need only 2900 points to reserve that week. That is much less than 4725 points needed for the July and August weeks, when most people want to travel with their kids who are on break. I would be better off converting to points, getting the 3475 points, using 2900 to book my reservation and having almost 600 points left over to book another short reservation elsewhere or rent those points out. This is true... but it's true even if Marriott gave owners 3000 points for converting their weeks to points (you'd still have 100 points left over). Should owners be happy if they got 3000 points? Is 3000 points fair? Is 3475 fair? What is the "fair" number?

I'd argue it has to be "points in = points out"; or about 3700 points in the example above (note that - referring to Sue's explanation - it still won't allow me to reserve a summer week with points since a summer week is 4725 points, but at least there will be no surplus in the aggregate, and therefore no skim based on my definition, if they did that). Marriott doesn't need to capture a hidden fee on this. They already got fees when people enrolled and when they pay annual club dues.

I'm not sure how subjective it is to say that "skim" is the difference between how many DC Points an enrolled Week is allotted and what it costs to book a same interval with Points. That's basically what I said, pointing out that "the overwhelming majority of Weeks" suffer skim.

I think it's more subjective to get into the whole, "Marriott should or could have done blahblahblah differently ..." IMO that's a wasted exercise. Skim exists. As long as we recognize it, then we can know how to figure it into the equation of which exchange company - II or the DC - is the better value depending on the Week(s) we own.

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning...

Thank you Sue.... you hit nail on head...

Of course, skim exists..it is basically the DC exchange fee... but the good news is that I can choose wether to be skimmed or not....I can do good ol fashioned II trading... under DC club..or I can play in DC and accept skim....

If I wanted to trade like/like I do an II trade an accept what I get within my parameters. If I want to mix and match, cancel, do a short stay, name my dates and view and change if necessary... I take my skim and work my system.

DC is just an added option!!!!

There is some myth about II inventory drying up. I think that is for the gang that works hard to upgrade. 2 bedrooms from 1 etc. I believe that like for like is still in business...

Plerase remmeber for Sue (3 bedroom non lock off at SW and my brother (Pres week at Aruba) they do much better (even with skim) playing in points...

 

[dansimms]

II account with Destinations Program

I recently added to my Marriott portfolio to get to the Premier Plus level. I had already been in the Destination Program and I was surprised to see that another II account was created, so I asked II to merge the two. Does anyone think I made a mistake in doing so? I just thought it would be simpler and much less likely to have an unexpected invoice show up in the future. The II person that I dealt with at the Marriott II number seemed like a Junior Rep and didn't leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy that I had done the right thing. Thoughts? Since it was a merger and not a cancellation, I did feel that there shouldn't be any negative consequences.

 

[dioxide45]

I recently added to my Marriott portfolio to get to the Premier Plus level. I had already been in the Destination Program and I was surprised to see that another II account was created, so I asked II to merge the two. Does anyone think I made a mistake in doing so? I just thought it would be simpler and much less likely to have an unexpected invoice show up in the future. The II person that I dealt with at the Marriott II number seemed like a Junior Rep and didn't leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy that I had done the right thing. Thoughts? Since it was a merger and not a cancellation, I did feel that there shouldn't be any negative consequences.

There are advantages to merging the two. They really should be combined. If you ever opt to upgrade to II Gold or II Platinum status, having only one account means all your weeks and points would be covered by the new status. I don't see any negative consequences to doing this.

 

[dansimms]

Thanks !

Thanks for your input. I figure I will check with Marriott Destinations Desk in a couple of weeks, after the dust settles, and make sure it is intact with anything I would like it to do for me. Much Appreciated!

 

[dioxide45]

Really? How do you explain that when I own resale weeks that straddle the June 2010 date. I own 2 weeks pre June 2010, and 1 week post June 2010. What is Marriott going to do for me?

Or to a resale owner that owns post June 2010.

If I dive into the DC I have to pay the DC club fees, and an II membership? Or if I own post June 2010 then I have to buy points and rent points, and pay DC dues, and an II membership.

I am not sure how un-enrolled weeks are getting hit at all. The skim does not apply to you in any way since you can't convert your weeks to points.

If you opt to enroll your pre 6/10 weeks, they would be covered by the annual DC fee and any exchanges would be covered at no additional cost as would the II account for those weeks. Of course you would have to pay an II membership and exchange fees for the un-enrolled ineligible week.

Marriott really doesn't owe you anything or has to do anything for you. They are still providing you the ability to reserve your week and exchange it through II under the terms prior to DC roll-out.

 

[Big Matt]

What I've found to be the best value with the DC is to use it to the fullest advantage.

Stay Sunday through Thursday. Weekends are almost the same points total for two days as the five week days.

Continue to lock off and deposit one of my units every other year with II. I still get great trades with II for places that I like to go and which are easy to get (Williamsburg, Orlando, etc.). Plus there's no exchange fee.

Leverage Marriott Rewards points when possible to bridge a 12 day trip. Sunday to Thursday in a timeshare, Friday and Saturday in a Marriott Hotel and five more DC nights Sunday through Thursday. I basically get 10 DC nights for about what a seven day stay costs me and I get either one or two rooms using Rewards points for the middle. It's not that easy to do, but in places where you have timeshares and hotels in the same area or on the same property that helps (Orlando, Myrtle Beach, Hawaii, etc.).

 

[billymach4]

I am not sure how un-enrolled weeks are getting hit at all. The skim does not apply to you in any way since you can't convert your weeks to points.

If you opt to enroll your pre 6/10 weeks, they would be covered by the annual DC fee and any exchanges would be covered at no additional cost as would the II account for those weeks. Of course you would have to pay an II membership and exchange fees for the un-enrolled ineligible week.

Marriott really doesn't owe you anything or has to do anything for you. They are still providing you the ability to reserve your week and exchange it through II under the terms prior to DC roll-out.

Maybe I should restate my point. Not looking for anything from Marriott. I just want to state that the DC membership, and savings for II in my situation are not at all a benefit if I ever decide to join the DC. I have a mixed bag of weeks that are eligible for the DC and not eligible. I would still have to pay for a separate membership in II if I eventually enroll in the DC. My issue is that I don't see any savings in the DC membership.

Note: My attitude has slightly changed in the last month since I have seen the experts here tout the benefits of enrolling in the DC, and renting points. This may be something I might consider in a few years. Especially now that I have had a taste of the Hawaiian destinations and now of course I want to return.

 

[csalter2]

Maybe I should restate my point. Not looking for anything from Marriott. I just want to state that the DC membership, and savings for II in my situation are not at all a benefit if I ever decide to join the DC. I have a mixed bag of weeks that are eligible for the DC and not eligible. I would still have to pay for a separate membership in II if I eventually enroll in the DC. My issue is that I don't see any savings in the DC membership.

Note: My attitude has slightly changed in the last month since I have seen the experts here tout the benefits of enrolling in the DC, and renting points. This may be something I might consider in a few years. Especially now that I have had a taste of the Hawaiian destinations and now of course I want to return.

BillyMach4, I own only one week with Marriott at Ko Olina and I find value in the DC. First, I have II so that cost is absorbed and if you do an exchange to another Marriott, which I do, that cost $124 cost is gone , if I lock off that cost is gone, if I trade for MRP that cost is also gone. So I do all of these at some point so to me even with only one week there is benefit. Oh and yes, I have worked the system and rented points to my advantage to ensure my reservations through a Premier Plus owner at 13 months out. My point is that there are some great advantages to enrolling in the DC if you are a weeks owner.

 

[DanCali]

I'm not sure how subjective it is to say that "skim" is the difference between how many DC Points an enrolled Week is allotted and what it costs to book a same interval with Points.

But how do you define "the cost to book the same interval"?

In the DC, a season can have 20 weeks and each week can, in theory, require a different number of points to book. Those who travel in the lower demand weeks will feel like they didn't get skimmed (or are benefiting from "reverse skim"). Whose who travel in the high demand weeks will feel like they got shortchanged. If there is one week in a season that requires 2000 points to book and 15 other weeks in the season that require 2500-4000 points to book then is 2300 points good enough? They guy who books that low demand week may be happy, but my point is that he would also be getting 80 cents on the dollar because his week should be worth many more points.

So what is the right number of points?

Note that in the example I gave, even if NCV Platinum gave owners 3700 points when converting, those owners still can't reserve the high demand summer weeks which require 4725 points. But 3700 (or maybe it's around 3690) points would be a "fair" number because it represents the average points required to book a week in the season and there would be no points surplus in the aggregate captured by Marriott. I don't think there is any other way to look at it.

 

[SueDonJ]

But how do you define "the cost to book the same interval"?

In the DC, a season can have 20 weeks and each week can, in theory, require a different number of points to book. Those who travel in the lower demand weeks will feel like they didn't get skimmed (or are benefiting from "reverse skim"). Whose who travel in the high demand weeks will feel like they got shortchanged. If there is one week in a season that requires 2000 points to book and 15 other weeks in the season that require 2500-4000 points to book then is 2300 points good enough? They guy who books that low demand week may be happy, but my point is that he would also be getting 80 cents on the dollar because his week should be worth many more points.

So what is the right number of points?

Note that in the example I gave, even if NCV Platinum gave owners 3700 points when converting, those owners still can't reserve the high demand summer weeks which require 4725 points. But 3700 (or maybe it's around 3690) points would be a "fair" number because it represents the average points required to book a week in the season and there would be no points surplus in the aggregate captured by Marriott. I don't think there is any other way to look at it.

About what I bolded - there isn't a RIGHT number of Points! There are only the amounts that Marriott has allotted. Trying to figure out whether they're "fair" or not is like what I said before, a wasted exercise. Over the years we've all thought at different times that Marriott was being unfair - if we all decided to drop our timeshares based on that, none of us would own Marriotts anymore!

IMO the way to think about skim reasonably is to to recognize that it exists with Exchange Points usage and then move on to, "what does it do for/to me?" For some it's a deal-breaker, no doubt. For others not so much because they've figured out how to get as much value as they want to get from their enrolled Weeks despite the skim. A few very lucky others get more value from the DC than from II or Weeks usage, making skim completely immaterial.

(I got into this because of the simple question, "what is this skim everyone's talking about?" But I agree with dioxide in the other conversation in this thread - that skim is completely irrelevant if you enroll Weeks in the DC for the simplified fee structure, using them as Weeks and never converting to DC Points.)

Getting back around to the OP's question, if you've enrolled and are gaining no benefits at all from the DC - none that you've seen and none that you can reasonably see in the future - then not renewing your enrollment sounds to me like a good plan. If enrollment in the DC is costing you more than if you hadn't enrolled, with no uptick in usage value, then it's a no-brainer - don't renew.

 

[billymach4]

What about unused points?

Lets say you have 10,000 points in a given year.

Puck comes along and tells you how to score some great vacations for your points and you have about 700 unused points from some reverse skim?

What do you do with the unused points if you can't use or rent out? Do they get forfeited? Carry over? I thought they expire at some point?

 

[billymach4]

BillyMach4, I own only one week with Marriott at Ko Olina and I find value in the DC. First, I have II so that cost is absorbed and if you do an exchange to another Marriott, which I do, that cost $124 cost is gone , if I lock off that cost is gone, if I trade for MRP that cost is also gone. So I do all of these at some point so to me even with only one week there is benefit. Oh and yes, I have worked the system and rented points to my advantage to ensure my reservations through a Premier Plus owner at 13 months out. My point is that there are some great advantages to enrolling in the DC if you are a weeks owner.

That is a great deal. But in my case I would continue to have an II membership for my Ocean Pointe week since it is post 6/2010. Unless of course I occupy or rent out. At this point I would want to deposit and exchange that week via II. So I must maintain a separate II account.

 

[SueDonJ]

Lets say you have 10,000 points in a given year.

Puck comes along and tells you how to score some great vacations for your points and you have about 700 unused points from some reverse skim?

What do you do with the unused points if you can't use or rent out? Do they get forfeited? Carry over? I thought they expire at some point?

Points expire as of the end of their Use Year, yes. They can be banked a single year ahead providing you do the banking transaction prior to the banking deadline and they can be rented out (either as Points to other DC Members or, similar to the Weeks system, as a reservation to non-DC Members.)

Careful management is needed, no doubt, to avoid losing Points to expiration. VacationPointExchange.com is invaluable there, facilitating rentals/transfers of unused Points.

(The only Points system with which I was aware prior to Marriott's DC is Disney's - Points expire at the end of the Use Year in that system as well so Marriott didn't surprise me with that aspect of the DC. In fact, I still don't understand how a Points system can allow points to have perpetual usage value while still satisfying the supply/demand inventory controls. )

 

[rpw]

However, last time I checked, Marriott was offering 3475 to convert one of those weeks to points, approximately 6% less. This shortchanges owners by about 225 points each time they convert to points (~$100-$120). Marriott can potentially use that difference to make its own reservations for the most desirable weeks (you can't work faster than their computers) and rent them out.

I'd have to really think about this a bit, but it does sound like the "skim" does actually cost you money. Every time I convert my TS to DC points I'm leaving money on the table. So much for the "savings" over II. It sounds like I'm either paying it to II or Marriott.

 

[suzannesimon]

There are owners that never go anywhere but their home resort during their home season. I run into them all the time on vacation more often than I run into people who trade. They don't need points or II at all. Trading is more complicated that they want to deal with.

I think you can find the true value of a week by checking the rental prices. It's interesting to see what the fair-market rent is compared to the points allocated to a resort by Marriott, Hyatt or Starwood. Sometimes the points gotten are a real deal - other times not so much. In those cases, try renting your week for a reasonable amount and renting where you want to go - one or more units - because you'll have the money to do it without the hassle of waiting for a trade to come through. Aruba is an example of a place where you can get excellent rental income where the point-value is just not comparable.