Am I about to get ripped off and what, if anything, should I do?

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I’m looking for some TUG sage wisdom and advice. So long story short, I won an auction on eBay for 64k Wyndham Bali Hai points for $220.50 all-in, which is obviously a great deal, and maybe too good to be true. The seller timersharesavingsllc had a feedback score of 7, however all 7 were for Wyndham or Worldmark timeshares and were positive. There were some older feedback comments about poor communications, but no other red flags and I figured it was worth the $220.50 risk to get such a great price on a Bali Hai addition. I also got a copy of an estoppel letter so it appeared to be on the up and up.

The eBay auction ended on June 4th, and made full payment and signed their contract on June 5th.

On June 11th I sent the following email to the seller (just to see what his timeline was for deed recording, since I always breath easier after a deed has been recorded and I can look it up):

Good Afternoon,

I just wanted to check and see what your expected timeline was for closing / deed recording on this.

Thanks!

On June 13th, the seller wrote back:

Everything was passed to our closing department where they will submit it into Wyndham for approval if they haven't already submitted it. Once they do it is usually around 7-10 weeks before we hear back from them. Once we do hear back with approval they will also be sending any closing documents that will be needed. That is when our closing agent will reach out to get those completed.

This seemed wrong to me. I’ve purchased 5 previous Wyndham contracts, and the order was always: 1. Deed is recorded (after the rescission period), and then the deed and transfer paperwork are sent to Wyndham for them to process the transfer (and I know that takes 3-5 months). Am I missing something here? Why would they need to get permission from Wyndham to record the deed? There’s no ROFR that I’m aware of at Bali Hai, at least there wasn’t for the last Bali Hai contract I purchased.

Based on those concerns, I sent the following email this morning (trying to be as nice as possible) because I figured this was just the seller’s inexperience:

Good Morning,

I’ve purchased multiple resale Wyndham contracts previously (including at Bali Hai). The deed needs to be recorded and then the transfer paperwork can be sent to Wyndham. I know that Wyndham takes a very long time to process the transfer paperwork (upwards of 3 months), so I understand the delay there and I always leave positive feedback for the seller on eBay once the deed has been recorded, since I know it will be a long time before the transfer is processed. My question was if you or your closing department have a timeline for the deed recording, not for the transfer paperwork to be sent. I know you need to wait the rescission period in order for the deed to be recorded, but that time has now elapsed.

Thank You,

And I promptly received this response:

On average, expect the deed recording process to take roughly 90 days or so.

So….. that is obviously a very looooong time for them to record the deed, and more importantly, puts it out past the timeframe when I could put in a claim to eBay/paypal if it turns out this is just a scam. On the other hand, it’s only $220.50 and he does have positive feedback for other Wyndham deeds. Am I just overthinking this and I should just let this ride? I guess my downside risk isn’t that much? Should I respond to him with anything else? I don’t want to **** off the seller and cause this to blow up either because I think it’s probably still more likely than not that this is not a scam and this guy just doesn’t quite know what he’s doing. Any advice/comments are appreciated, feel free to be brutal if you think I’m just being nuts here and shouldn’t be worrying about this.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Wyndham doesn't approve anything. That sounds like a made-up reason for a delay in the closing.

And FYI, our transfers of the weeks we gave away took 5 full months AFTER Wyndham received the $399 per contract for transfer and the copy of the deed.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Wyndham doesn't approve anything. That sounds like a made-up reason for a delay in the closing.

And FYI, our transfers of the weeks we gave away took 5 full months AFTER Wyndham received the $399 per contract for transfer and the copy of the deed.

Yeah, that’s what I thought. What would you do if you were me?

 

[bnoble]

It’s $200. How much of your time is that worth?

 

[dioxide45]

My guess is they don't know the nuances of what they are selling. They may have other sales of other timeshare under different Ebay seller names, so they are just saying something to provide a response. The fact that they are responsive is a good sign.

 

[paxsarah]

Yeah, I'd probably let it play out, since you don't have much invested into it. It's like the free Timeshare Nation Oceanside Pier I got with the erroneous estoppel (Wyndham's error). I crossed my fingers and hoped that it worked out, and it did.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

It’s $200. How much of your time is that worth?

That’s fair.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

My guess is they don't know the nuances of what they are selling. They may have other sales of other timeshare under different Ebay seller names, so they are just saying something to provide a response. The fact that they are responsive is a good sign.

Thanks.

 

[learnalot]

The only thing that might be affecting the normal process is that I believe all sales/transfers of Hawaii property must go through escrow and/or an agent licensed in Hawaii. (I don't think it's both - it's one or the other, but I can't remember which). Someone will know.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

So I have an update, and there is a plot twist, and now I’m not sure what to do:

Last week this eBay reseller finally sent me a “Vacation Plan Ownership Deed” with a page that I as the buyer need to have signed and notarized. I’ve never needed to do this before as the buyer and think it is strange (and I’ve purchased Bali Hai before) but don’t think much of it and was going to have it notarized this week.

Today, I get a phone call from an unknown number and answer it. The person on the other end asks me if I just purchased a timeshare and I’m about to hang up on them thinking it’s spam, but don’t. The person identifies himself as the seller of the contract (Bali Hai 64k). He wanted to know how much I paid for it because the outfit selling it (apparently working for a timeshare exit scam company) charged him $10,000 upfront and told him they would pay him back out of the proceeds of the eventual sale. I told him I was so sorry, that I had paid approximately $200 for it on eBay, and that if he went on eBay he would find that most Wyndham contracts of that size sold in that general range, maybe plus or minus a few hundred dollars. I told him I was so sorry he was taken for $10,000, and of course if he wanted to back out of the deal I understood (I figured I’m only in for $200 and maybe I can make an eBay claim against the seller and if not, it’s $200). I mentioned both TUG and Certified Exit as additional resources he might want to check out.

He starts asking me questions about how he gets it transferred to me and how he can finally stop paying maintenance fees, and I explain the transfer timeline, how best case scenario is probably that the transfer goes through sometime in November and he stops paying maintenance fees then. He then asks (and this is where I’m getting spooked) “Well what if I just stop paying maintenance fees now?” I explain that if he stops paying maintenance fees after the deed is recorded but before Wyndham process the transfer then we are both going to end up stuck, with me having title and Wyndham refusing to transfer it out of his name until he gets current. I again offer to just cancel the deal and possibly eat the $200 and he indicates he needs to talk to his wife and get back to me, but asks me not to send in the notarized contract and that he will get back to me in a week.

I am now thinking that this is not worth this aggravation. I’m thinking of either calling him back and just strongly suggesting that he contact Wyndham Certified Exit and we both back out of this deal. I do not trust this reseller at all not to **** this up with his weird paperwork and delays, and I don’t fully trust this seller not to just stop paying the maintenance fees, and I wish I had never bid on this auction. I have plenty of other contracts at this point. I don’t know if this guy will get out of this any faster with certified exit than he will with consummating this sale, but this whole thing has me nervous.

Thoughts?

 

[dioxide45]

So I have an update, and there is a plot twist, and now I’m not sure what to do:

Last week this eBay reseller finally sent me a “Vacation Plan Ownership Deed” with a page that I as the buyer need to have signed and notarized. I’ve never needed to do this before as the buyer and think it is strange (and I’ve purchased Bali Hai before) but don’t think much of it and was going to have it notarized this week.

Today, I get a phone call from an unknown number and answer it. The person on the other end asks me if I just purchased a timeshare and I’m about to hang up on them thinking it’s spam, but don’t. The person identifies himself as the seller of the contract (Bali Hai 64k). He wanted to know how much I paid for it because the outfit selling it (apparently working for a timeshare exit scam company) charged him $10,000 upfront and told him they would pay him back out of the proceeds of the eventual sale. I told him I was so sorry, that I had paid approximately $200 for it on eBay, and that if he went on eBay he would find that most Wyndham contracts of that size sold in that general range, maybe plus or minus a few hundred dollars. I told him I was so sorry he was taken for $10,000, and of course if he wanted to back out of the deal I understood (I figured I’m only in for $200 and maybe I can make an eBay claim against the seller and if not, it’s $200). I mentioned both TUG and Certified Exit as additional resources he might want to check out.

He starts asking me questions about how he gets it transferred to me and how he can finally stop paying maintenance fees, and I explain the transfer timeline, how best case scenario is probably that the transfer goes through sometime in November and he stops paying maintenance fees then. He then asks (and this is where I’m getting spooked) “Well what if I just stop paying maintenance fees now?” I explain that if he stops paying maintenance fees after the deed is recorded but before Wyndham process the transfer then we are both going to end up stuck, with me having title and Wyndham refusing to transfer it out of his name until he gets current. I again offer to just cancel the deal and possibly eat the $200 and he indicates he needs to talk to his wife and get back to me, but asks me not to send in the notarized contract and that he will get back to me in a week.

I am now thinking that this is not worth this aggravation. I’m thinking of either calling him back and just strongly suggesting that he contact Wyndham Certified Exit and we both back out of this deal. I do not trust this reseller at all not to **** this up with his weird paperwork and delays, and I don’t fully trust this seller not to just stop paying the maintenance fees, and I wish I had never bid on this auction. I have plenty of other contracts at this point. I don’t know if this guy will get out of this any faster with certified exit than he will with consummating this sale, but this whole thing has me nervous.

Thoughts?

Deeds in Hawaii need to be signed by both the seller and the buyer. This is probably what they sent you to have signed and notarize. There are only a few states that are like that. Louisiana being one of the others.

Sadly this is a situation where the owner could have just come to TUG and done a post in the Free Timeshares forum and given it away for free instead of paying $10,000 to some exit outfit.

What is the going value (not Ebay distressed) for a contract like this? Would it be worth it to reimburse the seller for the MFs from this month till transfer in order to salvage the deal? Long term, would the contract be worth that to you?

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

What is the going value (not Ebay distressed) for a contract like this? Would it be worth it to reimburse the seller for the MFs from this month till transfer in order to salvage the deal? Long term, would the contract be worth that to you?

Hard to say what the going value is, it’s all over the map. Bali Hai has decent maintenance fees, and I definitely got a good deal, but I can’t imagine a contract this small being worth much more than closing costs given that it’s only 64k points. Maybe $800 - $1000 including closing costs? Honestly it’s not worth much to me, I probably have too many points at this point after my latest DVC purchase. The maintenance fees if he’s paying the full program fee because this is all he owns are like $40 a month so that’s minimal if it takes another 4 months to close I guess. The whole thing makes me nervous though.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Deeds in Hawaii need to be signed by both the seller and the buyer. This is probably what they sent you to have signed and notarize. There are only a few states that are like that. Louisiana being one of the others.

Sadly this is a situation where the owner could have just come to TUG and done a post in the Free Timeshares forum and given it away for free instead of paying $10,000 to some exit outfit.

What is the going value (not Ebay distressed) for a contract like this? Would it be worth it to reimburse the seller for the MFs from this month till transfer in order to salvage the deal? Long term, would the contract be worth that to you?

The real tragedy is that he didn’t even have to find Tug. If he had just called Wyndham Certified Exit they absolutely would have taken it off his hands for free. It’s Bali Hai, I’m confident they want that back for their CWA portfolio given the low maintenance fees.

 

[paxsarah]

Deeds in Hawaii need to be signed by both the seller and the buyer.

That's interesting because I bought a Bali Hai contract last year and didn't have to have anything notarized. I was just asked to do a typical docusign purchase agreement.

 

[dioxide45]

That's interesting because I bought a Bali Hai contract last year and didn't have to have anything notarized. I was just asked to do a typical docusign purchase agreement.

I think I read the requirements incorrectly. The buyer only signs a deed if there is an assumption. So in this case, as long as the timeshare is paid in full, then the buyer doesn't need to sign.

 

[jules54]

Let it ride out. The owner needs to deal with the company he agreed to let sell it not you. If the deal never happens the company that sold the timeshare will most likely reimburse you. I had this happen to me this year with a La Belle Maison contract I bought on eBay. The company told me the seller changed their mind and refunded my 250.00. I think the deed had already been transferred to my name but I’ve heard nothing from anyone. If you use your credit card for PayPal payment you have that Avenue to pursue for the refund also. I’d never just eat the 220.00 until every Avenue had been driven on. Lol

 

[Pink_Warrior]

So at the end of the day, you are working with a shyster would ripped off the original owner. I pretty much had this exact scenario. I even flew to Orlando and met with the older couple who answered a postcard mailing to exit. They paid $14,000. Then the shyster never took it out of their names so they paid MF year after year, only to have the points expire. We had it deeded in our names, only to have Wyndham NOT put it in our account. So we had it deeded back out of our names. Then Wyndham took the contracts out of our account EXCEPT my husband's name remained on one of the contracts (not deeds.) So we still get mail with the shyster's name on it.

So there is a department "Wyndham Cares" who in theory should be going after these people. However, I sent complete documentation of the scam to Wyndham's legal department. And what did they do? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! Apparently Wyndham DOESN'T care.

I would cut and run.

 

[dioxide45]

So at the end of the day, you are working with a shyster would ripped off the original owner. I pretty much had this exact scenario.

This applies to many situations with Ebay auctions. Either an exit company or some other timeshare company that conned someone into "trading in" a timeshare to buy theirs. Both are about equal in terms of a shyster.

 

[5finny]

Isn't your risk $200 plus winding up owning a timeshare that may have delinquent maintenance fees plus having to hold the hand of an uninformed owner who got scr**ed?
Probably not a super large money risk but definitely an aggravation risk

 

[ShawnH]

I knew that the timeshare exit companies were bad, but this is worse than I thought. And this reinforces in my mind that they are far worse than the timeshare sales team. I knew going on what I was getting into, mostly, but I see people getting duped all the time. But to then to get swindled by another company that is supposedly “helping” them out of a timeshare just pours jet fuel onto the fire so to speak.

I have to say if this were me I’d probably distance myself from this deal. If it’s setting off your inner alarm bell there is a reason.

I’m not anti timeshare but I do think the sales team try’s every tactic in the book to get people that shouldn’t to sign that dotted line for a quick pay day. The these bottom feeders come in and prey on these poor people to make another quick buck.

 

[dioxide45]

I knew that the timeshare exit companies were bad, but this is worse than I thought. And this reinforces in my mind that they are far worse than the timeshare sales team. I knew going on what I was getting into, mostly, but I see people getting duped all the time. But to then to get swindled by another company that is supposedly “helping” them out of a timeshare just pours jet fuel onto the fire so to speak.

I have to say if this were me I’d probably distance myself from this deal. If it’s setting off your inner alarm bell there is a reason.

I’m not anti timeshare but I do think the sales team try’s every tactic in the book to get people that shouldn’t to sign that dotted line for a quick pay day. The these bottom feeders come in and prey on these poor people to make another quick buck.

This is the reality of a lot of timeshare resales on Ebay. Unless you are willing to go through a broker and pay a little more or find an owner and do a direct owner to seller purchase, it is the game that exists.

 

[ShawnH]

This is the reality of a lot of timeshare resales on Ebay. Unless you are willing to go through a broker and pay a little more or find an owner and do a direct owner to seller purchase, it is the game that exists.

I think the fact the the original owner contacted Fido and the resulting conversation would certainly raise some alarms if I were in this situation.

I also understand that there is a reason there are a lot of resale contracts on the market and most likely the reason they are there probably isn’t good.

 

[dioxide45]

I think the fact the the original owner contacted Fido and the resulting conversation would certainly raise some alarms if I were in this situation.

I also understand that there is a reason there are a lot of resale contracts on the market and most likely the reason they are there probably isn’t good.

The owner was probably worried that the Ebay seller wasn't going to pass on the sale proceed and wanted to know how much it really was. I'm kinda curious how the owner knew who the buyer was. Usually these companies obtain a POA and just do everything without the owner knowing what is going on.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

That's interesting because I bought a Bali Hai contract last year and didn't have to have anything notarized. I was just asked to do a typical docusign purchase agreement.

Yeah, I don’t remember doing this for Bali Hai either.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Isn't your risk $200 plus winding up owning a timeshare that may have delinquent maintenance fees plus having to hold the hand of an uninformed owner who got scr**ed?

Given the competence level of Wyndham, I worry my risk is some kind of no mans land where I have a property deeded to me, with delinquent maintenance fees, that start accruing in my name, that Wyndham forever refuses to transfer, that I also can’t pay because Wyndham is so incompetent, or that I can pay, but it doesn’t matter., because they still don’t transfer it.