Abound Sales Pitch - Buy Vistana Now?

[timsi]

2) 10% AMORTIZATION APPROACH
Your alternative approach of amortizing the upfront cost over 10 years is another way to account for the upfront cost, but in that case, since we are analyzing just one 7 night trip, we must only use the upfront cost for the points used for that one trip. So, for upfront cost, I'll use our real average per-point upfront cost of our Trust points of a little over $11/point, heck I'll even round up to $12/point to account for closing costs, etc. I'm intentionally not averaging in the upfront cost of the points we get from that resale Barony week to calculate the average cost, since those only wound up costing us about $2/point to buy. If you calculate the total upfront cost of our entire 6375 usable points (including the week), our cost actually falls to only $8.63/point, but I'll use the higher $12/point number to be more reflective of the return on the Trust points specifically. So, using that:

Seven nights at 1BR OF Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili - 5675 points.
Maintenance fee cost of those 5675 points at our cost of $0.69: $3916 or $560/night
Upfront purchase cost of 5675 points at $12/point: $68,100
10% amortization of upfront cost: $6810 or $972/night
Total pro-forma "cost" of the Maui week including actual costs and amortized up front cost: $10,726 or $1532/night
Cost of rental of same accommodation on Marriott.com, including taxes: $9735 or $1390/night

So, in this case, you are correct and the rental is slightly cheaper. It looks even worse for someone who has to pay current Points prices. But, in my opinion, the fallacy in the 10 year amortization approach is you are artificially forcing the entire upfront cost to be spread over just ten years. In my option, anyone who makes a timeshare points purchase decision - especially one at developer prices - with just a 10 year time horizon is making a big mistake. We have already owned our MVC points for 8 years and expect to use them well into our 70s if not longer into our early 80s, so we purchased with a 20+ year horizon. Given that, amortizing the upfront purchase over just 10 years is not reflective of reality. For us, 20+ years would be more realistic. If you did that, that $6810 ten-year upfront cost amortization changes to a $3405 twenty-year amortization. So the per night amount falls to $486, making the total pro-forma cost $1046/night - $344/night less than the $1390/night rental cost.

It does not seem you are using the best available rate on Marriott.com when you make your comparisons. When I used the owner code and I got $956 per night 1BR OF unit which is significantly better than $1390 that you mentioned. You also get a minimum of 67,726 Bonvoy points for your stay (worth about $475) when you book through Marriott.com. This would bring your actual cost on Marriott.com to $888 per night and I should mention that if you have any Bonvoy status, you can get more points. I do not agree with using zero cost of capital indefinitely, but even so, it seems there is no saving whether you use 10 or 20 years amortization. I think we are also not taking into account that when you own points, you always need to own a bit more. I wonder what the average annual waste per trust point owner, points that expire without being used. I doubt it is zero. The owner rate is also more flexible, and you do not have to deal with banking deadlines, expiring points for late cancellations etc. I also believe the current hotel prices are inflated, we have to see how things shake out once the revenge travel subsides. Maybe they will be higher, but I doubt it, it is more likely we may see a lot more deals going forward.

Marriott's Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina & Napili Towers
Guest room, 1 King, Sofa bed, Oceanfront, Balcony

Check in: Friday, March 3, 2023
Check out: Friday, March 10, 2023
Summary of Charges 824.00USD Avg./night + 1,004.61USD Taxes and fees 6,772.61USD
Cancelling Your Reservation
You may cancel your reservation for no charge before 11:59 PM local hotel time on February 18, 2023 (14 day before arrival)

 

[JIMinNC]

It does not seem you are using the best available rate on Marriott.com when you make your comparisons. When I used the owner code and I got $956 per night 1BR OF unit which is significantly better than $1390 that you mentioned. You also get a minimum of 67,726 Bonvoy points for your stay (worth about $475) when you book through Marriott.com. This would bring your actual cost on Marriott.com to $888 per night and I should mention that if you have any Bonvoy status, you can get more points. I do not agree with using zero cost of capital indefinitely, but even so, it seems there is no saving whether you use 10 or 20 years amortization. I think we are also not taking into account that when you own points, you always need to own a bit more. I wonder what the average annual waste per trust point owner, points that expire without being used. I doubt it is zero. The owner rate is also more flexible, and you do not have to deal with banking deadlines, expiring points for late cancellations etc. I also believe the current hotel prices are inflated, we have to see how things shake out once the revenge travel subsides. Maybe they will be higher, but I doubt it, it is more likely we may see a lot more deals going forward.

Marriott's Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina & Napili Towers
Guest room, 1 King, Sofa bed, Oceanfront, Balcony

Check in: Friday, March 3, 2023
Check out: Friday, March 10, 2023
Summary of Charges 824.00USD Avg./night + 1,004.61USD Taxes and fees 6,772.61USD
Cancelling Your Reservation
You may cancel your reservation for no charge before 11:59 PM local hotel time on February 18, 2023 (14 day before arrival)

You are correct. I used the Bonvoy member rate, not the MVC discount code rate. I was doing quick and dirty comparisons. For any owner who qualifies for the MVC discount codes but doesn't use points, they can certainly save off the Bonvoy or Senior rates. That doesn't change the basic equation in my payback model, it just stretches out the payback. So, if I substitute the total cost of $6773 that you found above, and subtract my MF cost of $3916, then my cash flow savings would be just under $2900. So that would indeed cut the payback contribution in half - from $5800 to $2900 - and increase the time it would take to recoup the upfront costs.

We've focused a lot in this academic debate on the raw economics of cash vs points, but honestly, from my personal perspective, I don't really worry all that much about whether my "real" payback is 10 years, 15 years, or longer. All I really care about is, "will I eventually recoup most of that upfront cost?" I'm comfortable that in our case the answer is probably "yes." YMMV. What I actually like best about ownership versus cash rental is, with ownership, the cost of lodging for X number of nights per year is paid for in lump sum maintenance fee payments in December and January. Then, when we actually want to travel, it's really just a question of, "what do we want to book?" All those nights are already paid for. With cash rentals, each trip becomes a question, "Is this trip worth $7000 (or whatever)?" That's an intangible psychological value to us that is impossible to quantify.

The raw economics are only part of the story though. If you look at the availability calendar on Marriott.com for MOC, cash reservation availability is somewhat spotty. By contrast, I've always had my choice of the exact dates I want when booking with my MVC points (or weeks). When trying to schedule multiple weeks in Hawaii using a mix of points and weeks across both MVC and HGVC, that ease helps a lot. That's another intangible benefit.

In the end, though, the savings/price comparisons we are debating about all get lost in the rounding of all the things we spend money on in life. Whether I recoup all of our $54,000 cost of our ownership before going to the big timeshare in the sky, or only half of it, so what? That difference is peanuts over 10-15 years. We use our timeshares to make it easier to travel. They work for us.

Finally, the only reason I started into this debate in the first place was your contention that owning Trust points can NEVER make sense. My whole point was to point out that they can and do work for at least some of us. Again, YMMV.

 

[timsi]

You are correct. I used the Bonvoy member rate, not the MVC discount code rate. I was doing quick and dirty comparisons. For any owner who qualifies for the MVC discount codes but doesn't use points, they can certainly save off the Bonvoy or Senior rates. That doesn't change the basic equation in my payback model, it just stretches out the payback. So, if I substitute the total cost of $6773 that you found above, and subtract my MF cost of $3916, then my cash flow savings would be just under $2900. So that would indeed cut the payback contribution in half - from $5800 to $2900 - and increase the time it would take to recoup the upfront costs.

We've focused a lot in this academic debate on the raw economics of cash vs points, but honestly, from my personal perspective, I don't really worry all that much about whether my "real" payback is 10 years, 15 years, or longer. All I really care about is, "will I eventually recoup most of that upfront cost?" I'm comfortable that in our case the answer is probably "yes." YMMV. What I actually like best about ownership versus cash rental is, with ownership, the cost of lodging for X number of nights per year is paid for in lump sum maintenance fee payments in December and January. Then, when we actually want to travel, it's really just a question of, "what do we want to book?" All those nights are already paid for. With cash rentals, each trip becomes a question, "Is this trip worth $7000 (or whatever)?" That's an intangible psychological value to us that is impossible to quantify.

The raw economics are only part of the story though. If you look at the availability calendar on Marriott.com for MOC, cash reservation availability is somewhat spotty. By contrast, I've always had my choice of the exact dates I want when booking with my MVC points (or weeks). When trying to schedule multiple weeks in Hawaii using a mix of points and weeks across both MVC and HGVC, that ease helps a lot. That's another intangible benefit.

In the end, though, the savings/price comparisons we are debating about all get lost in the rounding of all the things we spend money on in life. Whether I recoup all of our $54,000 cost of our ownership before going to the big timeshare in the sky, or only half of it, so what? That difference is peanuts over 10-15 years. We use our timeshares to make it easier to travel. They work for us.

Finally, the only reason I started into this debate in the first place was your contention that owning Trust points can NEVER make sense. My whole point was to point out that they can and do work for at least some of us. Again, YMMV.

I do not know why you do not include the Bonvoy points you would get for a Marriott.com rental. Without any status bonus you would get 67,726 Bonvoy points for your stay (worth about $475). This would bring the actual cost to $6297 (6,772 - 475). The difference to the MF is only $2391. I just do not see how anyone can justify paying today $75,000 to get an annual saving of $2400, it would take 31 years to break even and that does not include any cost of capital or opportunity cost. In reality you will never see your money back and if you get sick and can't travel, it is mostly a writeoff. Not including any amortization in the calculation does not make any sense to me. By the same token, the timeshares where you can prepay the MF for a number of years, are free! Don't forget we are still comparing the trust point bookings with Marriott.com at the current inflated hotel prices. It gets a lot worse if we look at Redweek which should still be an option for a lot of folks.

I have no advanced knowledge about the big timeshares in the sky. I heard though that they are very well appointed and that there are no maintenance fees, special assessments etc. Once you get there you can stay, nobody will kick you out, so you do not have to worry about future inventory issues or glitchy IT. On the flip side, there are no exchanges, so we have to be happy with what we get. In any case, I am in no rush to find out.

 

[JIMinNC]

I do not know why you do not include the Bonvoy points you would get for a Marriott.com rental. Without any status bonus you would get 67,726 Bonvoy points for your stay (worth about $475). This would bring the actual cost to $6297 (6,772 - 475). The difference to the MF is only $2391. I just do not see how anyone can justify paying today $75,000 to get an annual saving of $2400, it would take 31 years to break even and that does not include any cost of capital or opportunity cost. In reality you will never see your money back and if you get sick and can't travel, it is mostly a writeoff. Not including any amortization in the calculation does not make any sense to me. By the same token, the timeshares where you can prepay the MF for a number of years, are free! Don't forget we are still comparing the trust point bookings with Marriott.com at the current inflated hotel prices. It gets a lot worse if we look at Redweek which should still be an option for a lot of folks.

I have no advanced knowledge about the big timeshares in the sky. I heard though that they are very well appointed and that there are no maintenance fees, special assessments etc. Once you get there you can stay, nobody will kick you out, so you do not have to worry about future inventory issues or glitchy IT. On the flip side, there are no exchanges, so we have to be happy with what we get. In any case, I am in no rush to find out.

Why don't I count Bonvoy points? Because between my wife and I we have over 2.2 million Bonvoy points. Getting more has minimal value at this point. Plus, as I said earlier, our priority isn't squeezing every dollar of value out of everything we do. We are convenience and experience driven.

Bottom line, as your numbers show, if you are determined to produce numbers that show Points are a terrible value, you can do that. On the other hand, if you believe Points have value, numbers can be produced that prove that as well - like mine. In the end, it's all about the assumptions each of us use in our numbers. There is no right answer, universally. What works for me may not work for you. We're happy with our weeks and our points. They meet our needs. Your Lagunamar weeks meet your needs. We're both happy, so why debate this any more? This horse is very, very dead.

 

[timsi]

Why don't I count Bonvoy points? Because between my wife and I we have over 2.2 million Bonvoy points. Getting more has minimal value at this point. Plus, as I said earlier, our priority isn't squeezing every dollar of value out of everything we do. We are convenience and experience driven.

Bottom line, as your numbers show, if you are determined to produce numbers that show Points are a terrible value, you can do that. On the other hand, if you believe Points have value, numbers can be produced that prove that as well - like mine. In the end, it's all about the assumptions each of us use in our numbers. There is no right answer, universally. What works for me may not work for you. We're happy with our weeks and our points. They meet our needs. Your Lagunamar weeks meet your needs. We're both happy, so why debate this any more? This horse is very, very dead.

You can’t be serious. The Bonvoy points are valued at $500 per transaction (875 dollars with the bonus if you are Titanium, $17,500 in 20 years, a good chunk of your “saving”), you do not look at the best alternatives in terms of rental price (whether Marriott.com with the owner’s rate or Redweek) and you can ignore 54,000 dollars sitting uninvested (or 75,000 if someone bought today) and the opportunity cost for 20 years. I understand your subjective position about the intangible value but let’s not mix apples and oranges.

 

[AlmostRetired]

There is no right answer, universally. What works for me may not work for you. We're happy with our weeks and our points. They meet our needs. Your Lagunamar weeks meet your needs. We're both happy, so why debate this any more? This horse is very, very dead.

Thank you. This is the net net of all timeshare ownership. Value can mean least cost, least time to spent on it, convenance, most tradable, comfort level. etc but these are individual owner decisions.

 

[sponger76]

You can’t be serious. The Bonvoy points are valued at $500 per transaction (875 dollars with the bonus if you are Titanium, $17,500 in 20 years, a good chunk of your “saving”), you do not look at the best alternatives in terms of rental price (whether Marriott.com with the owner’s rate or Redweek) and you can ignore 54,000 dollars sitting uninvested (or 75,000 if someone bought today) and the opportunity cost for 20 years. I understand your subjective position about the intangible value but let’s not mix apples and oranges.

What about the opportunity cost of all the time you spend griping about Abound that you could be spending productively enjoying your life?

 

[timsi]

What about the opportunity cost of all the time you spend griping about Abound that you could be spending productively enjoying your life?

That seems to be matched by others who, in absence of supporting numbers, have to come with creative ideas to defend it.

 

[sponger76]

That seems to be matched by others who, in absence of supporting numbers, have to come with creative ideas to defend it.

I'm still trying to figure out if someone from MVC peed in your coffee or something. Abound hasn't even launched yet but you're already crusading like it's Sauron coming forth from Mordor and you're trying to rally the Fellowship of the Ring. Just not rational considering they haven't done anything to you. Yes, it's possible that they could. But any stranger on the street *could* hit or rob you. Should you start campaigning against the evils of strangers on the street?

 

[JIMinNC]

You can’t be serious. The Bonvoy points are valued at $500 per transaction (875 dollars with the bonus if you are Titanium, $17,500 in 20 years, a good chunk of your “saving”), you do not look at the best alternatives in terms of rental price (whether Marriott.com with the owner’s rate or Redweek) and you can ignore 54,000 dollars sitting uninvested (or 75,000 if someone bought today) and the opportunity cost for 20 years. I understand your subjective position about the intangible value but let’s not mix apples and oranges.

That old horse is still dead, but I'll leave you with one or two more thoughts...

We are good friends with a couple who are very value-conscious consumers - they always shop for the best price, comparison shop, look for bargains, etc. They also try to maximize their credit card points/rewards by paying everything with their cards - estimated taxes, property taxes, utility bills, etc. They analyze in detail which card offers the best value for each transaction. When they travel they use AirBnB and VRBO and discount escorted tours. They wouldn't ever consider spending what we do for meals when dining out. If they can get a cheaper fare on Spirit, Southwest, or Frontier they will choose them over American, Delta, or United. This couple is at least as financially secure as we are, but they are value-focused and search for deals.

We are friends with another couple who prefer to stay at Ritz Carltons, fly First Class, and they enjoy dining out in really nice places like we do. They will certainly take whatever benefits they get from airline/hotel loyalty programs and using Rewards cards, but it doesn't drive their decisions. They are almost certainly more financially secure than we are.

We are somewhere in between these two couples. We don't usually fly First Class, but we avoid the discount carriers. We don't usually spring for the Ritz, and are happy with Marriotts and Westins, but we stay away from the discount hotels and AirBnBs our more frugal friends often use.

My point is, we all have different priorities. I like our timeshares mainly because they allow me to pay for my travel as a fixed cost every year, then I don't have to shop rates and pay a la carte like when we are traveling to places without timeshares. My costs are locked in each year and I don't have to worry whether that cheapest possible cash rate rental you used in your calculations will be available for the dates I want. If over time, I can save enough to recoup my initial costs, that's great. If I don't recoup it all, that's fine too. We can't take it with us.

The numbers I used are the same methodology I've used to evaluate our timeshare purchases at a high level since we bought our very first timeshare in another system in 1998. A number of us on the MVC board have had almost this same rent vs. buy debate multiple times over the last eight years, and we've all floated around enough numbers to make @SueDonJ 's head spin.

It's all about which assumptions we each use that has a huge impact on what the numbers say. My numbers reflect my specific costs and my specific priorities and I assign no value to things that have no meaningful value to us and don't factor into our decision making. My personal experience has been the cash rates vary and the cheapest rates aren't always there for the dates I want, but I've always been able to get what I want with both my weeks and Points, so I'm uncomfortable using the cheapest cash rate as a comparison. It appears to me that your intent is to use the most favorable rental costs (even if they might not always be available) and attribute every benefit to the cash rentals (like Bonvoy value) while doing the least favorable analysis of the cost and value of Trust Points because that supports your belief that no one can ever justify Trust points.

So, let's please let this horse die a respectful death. That is my plan from here on out. It's 75 degrees in Hilton Head Island and the beach is calling me. I'm going back to productively living my life as @sponger76 suggested - on the beach!

 

[TravelTime]

I am somewhere in between Jim’s examples. I can afford to stay almost anywhere (within financial reason) but I like timeshares for different reasons. I compare to the cash rate at hotels to calculate breakeven because that is where I would stay. I also factor in benefits like Titanium status and upgrades with Marriott hotels, gold status with United and my extra points I received for a hydrid package. I actually only calculated any of this for a little while after purchase with back of the envelope calculations. When I got close to break, I stopped bc I do not care anymore. It was good enough.

I like timeshares because the cost of owning can be half of renting on Redweek for the places I go and 1/4 of the expensive hotels I would stay at with more space. I do not like Redweek because of the strict refund policies if I change my mind, which frequently happens. You lose 50% to 100% of the cost of the rental if you cancel. Plus there is always the risk of a scam when renting from an owner.

I do not like Airbnb for some of the same reasons plus, even if legit, you may not get what you see in the photos and they are rarely in resorts. It could be a good back up for places where there are no timeshares but I still pick a hotel or professionally managed property when I stay outside of my timeshares to guarantee quality.

 

[SueDonJ]

That seems to be matched by others who, in absence of supporting numbers, have to come with creative ideas to defend it.

If "supporting numbers" was the only qualifier that defined reasonable timeshare ownership, every single TUGger would own Weeks that can't be given away unless the seller includes ten years worth of MF's and his/her firstborn in the deal, and fighting each other to the death over access to the Sightings board would be a thing.

@JIMinNC is right - I hate math. I do it only in my sewing room and that's more than enough. Don's a numbers guy but even he didn't project the numbers into the thirty-eighth year of our timeshare ownership to make sure we squeeze only the exact necessary amount of pennies into our vacations.

Our timeshares are for fun. The only nickel-and-diming we do with timeshares is making sure that our discretionary travel funds will cover the cost of the timeshares that work most conveniently for us. For me, it's not convenient to run spreadsheets or to scour the resale market or to get mired in the muck of eBay or to take unnecessary risks with strangers possibly scamming me.

For other timeshare owners, the fun is IN the numbers. Fine, you all have at it. Just don't tell me that your way is the only way or that my way requires a suspension of reason. There is no one right way to approach timeshare ownership, period.

 

[Dean]

I'm late to this party I know but it doesn't seem to matter since it's the same thing time after time anyway.

To me the only way to save money is to buy resale and either use your own week or exchange in Interval. The moment you pay developer prices, the potential saving goes away and that is particularly the case with Abound that is expensive both in terms of initial cost and MF. I have not seen yet a sweet spot to excite me.

Not true but I think we all would agree that simply buying retail at the present time as the only purchase is difficult to defend. There are lots of nuances. There has always been a certain amount of economy in a larger scale and that is definitely true with MVC in 2022. Assuming one is not enrolled or new to MVC or simply needs to add significant volume, there are in between options that can be great for many. Enrolling 7 to 12 resale weeks with a GOOD retail purchase OR buying a resale fractional and enrolling are probably the best ways available to do so. The latter will be best just for points, the former for a combination of usage (using owned weeks, exchanging, points). And if one chooses good weeks, they'll save around 1/3 to 1/2 off fees with the former and maybe 2/3 with the latter. Certainly just buying cheap weeks and exchanging will be the cheapest overall but will have limitations that many of us are not OK with.

Today resale MVC points sell for $6-$8 and work just like points bought from Marriott.

And there are still cheaper ways to get in than that both up front and yearly.

Something does not make sense with the Marriott inventory if the week owners have a hard time booking when the window opens. How many units does Marriott own at Barony Beach and Surf Watch?

Other than resorts where the developer still owns the majority of the weeks, it doesn't matter. For the rest it's not owned by MVC but by members. The question is valid as to the volume in the trust and the volume of owners enrolled for a given season (esp the higher seasons). Points systems and floating weeks systems inherently create a bottleneck for the highest demand times. Anyone deciding to participate should understand that before joining. If not, that's on them.

But this is not true in practice, Abound will "anticipate demand" based on its sole discretion. The best example is your resort where the platinum season ends before the end of the election period. You do not know what formula they use to give MVC a certain number of Memorial day weeks. It is possible they are "anticipating" deposits that will only come in October. What happens by the way if they did not anticipate correctly?

A certain amount of trust is required that they will not take more weeks than they should. But they have a boatload of historical data plus early booking trends to guide them. Could they take all the best weeks before anyone else had access, likely not, but they could tilt the table in their favor if they wanted. Anyone who's uncomfortable with that shouldn't participate in such a way they are caught up in this issue if they are overly concerned about it. And anyone who is completely distrustful, the a degree it's controlling their life, they really should simply get out and move on. Life's too short. BTW, exchanging to MX is easy for great weeks and resorts so I'd ague that owning in MX is a poor choice in general to use for MX.

 

[TravelTime]

I have not been reading the @timsi comments but it seems like he should not own timeshares.

I have read volumes of logical replies from many Tuggers about how different people like and enjoy timeshares for different reasons. How some timeshare owners calculate the ROI on timeshare ownership and how people calculate it different ways. How some people simply do not bother with all spreadsheets and are happy with good enough.

Getting into the transparency issues with timeshares seems like a fruitless endeavor. So does worrying about the changes in the programs. We all know anything can change with timeshares. I think TUG is helpful for learning how to maximize weeks or points.

It is fruitless to tell someone what they prefer is not good based on your own preferences. Not only fruitless but sort of demeaning to continuously do so like a pit bull. You can say why you do not like something for yourself but do not preach to others about their choices and what works for them.

 

[Quadmaniac]

Just a ball of laughs here, be great for parties

Tequila anyone ?

 

[LizMcCoy]

First time on TUG. Starwood/Westin owners for 17 years now. 4* Elite in the old system. Mostly floating properties. Would describe us as more like JIMinNC and TravelTime. Originally bought the timeshares so could travel with our kids and bring the grandparents and have space, kitchen, W/D. Now, we use the timeshare properties for R&R and are generally happy with what we are able to book when we get around to planning/booking (no longer tied to a school calendar and don't always book a year out). At this point, we do more traveling staying at hotel properties using the (now) Bonvoy points than at the VOI properties. But, we are intrigued by some of the new opportunities the MVC offers.

We are a bit behind the 8-ball on the Abound scenario because we moved 18 months ago and even though we did an owner update last December as well as updating our address/email in the owner dashboard back when we moved, we did not receive the invites in the past few months to join zooms and get walked through the new system over the phone. Just did an owner update at Desert Willow and learned that we are just shy of Chairman status in the Marriott Abound world. They of course pushed us to purchase MVC Trust Interests to get us up to Chairman status. (And, their archaic system had all of our contact info wrong (address, phone, email) in the system they used yesterday at Desert Willow, despite my pulling our account up on my laptop and showing them how we are up to date online -- good thing for MVC that we pay our MFs online and that I know when they are due since we haven't received paper invoices yet this year.)

Here are my questions. Sorry that some are very basic questions (we still haven't gone through the tutorials).

1. Is the Chairman level that much more desirable than Presidential? Seems that you get access 3 weeks earlier, but not sure what else we get for the upfront costs and additional MF. They were claiming Titanium Elite status for life, grandfathered regardless of future changes to the program. Limit of 1% of owners in the Chairman level (so presumably, better access if booking in that earliest of early windows). Any other significant benefits different from Presidential? Or is Presidential good enough? Any idea what % of owners/properties are in the Presidential level?
2. We need MVC Trust interests for 1250 Club Points to get us to Chairman level. They offered us 5 interests to get us those 1250 Club Points for $19500 and $850/year MF. Reading on TUG elsewhere I saw someone say that 1500 could be purchased for about $10,000 on the secondary market. Is that true? If so, where do we go to do that transaction? And, does it matter if those interests are purchased on secondary market versus directly from MVC in order to boost the status, assuming we want to go that route?
3. If we opt in for Club Points, do we have to convert all of our properties that year over to Club Points or can we do it property by property?
4. If we opt in for some properties in a year and not others, does that mean we get Presidential or Chairman status only for the transactions in Abound, but lose the Elite 4* status and benefits for the properties that we do not convert to Club Points in a year?
5. Will Elite 4* (now Presidential or Chairman) still get 20% bonus points on conversion to hotel points (we do a lot of that most years)? Is there a similar bonus in the Abound system for Presidential or Chairman level -- I'm assuming you can still convert unused Club Points to Bonvoy points (meaning if we turn a Westin VOI over to Club points in a year but don't use the points that we have a mechanism to then convert to Marriott Bonvoy hotel points -- is this true? I did read somewhere on HUB that in the fine print if you do not opt in for Club Points that many of the old elite bonuses disappear (now there will be conversion fees; will we still get that 20% bonus?)
6. At the sales office yesterday they were excited to show us how we can use Chairman status to (early) reserve desirable properties in particular locations and then rent them on VRBO as a way to earn money to pay for the additional interests we need to get to Chairman level. Has anyone had success doing this? The only time I tried to rent out one of our weeks (at Westin St. John) I had no luck and ended up canceling the reservation.

BTW I went back and looked at my notes from our owner update a year ago and some of the property valuations from Vistana to Abound ended up being quite different from what they were speculating a year ago. I know I read on TUG recently that you can take your Staroptions and divide by 30,000 to get to your Club Points, but that is inaccurate. Differs property by property (and possibly by season).

 

[daviator]

First time on TUG. Starwood/Westin owners for 17 years now. 4* Elite in the old system. Mostly floating properties. Would describe us as more like JIMinNC and TravelTime. Originally bought the timeshares so could travel with our kids and bring the grandparents and have space, kitchen, W/D. Now, we use the timeshare properties for R&R and are generally happy with what we are able to book when we get around to planning/booking (no longer tied to a school calendar and don't always book a year out). At this point, we do more traveling staying at hotel properties using the (now) Bonvoy points than at the VOI properties. But, we are intrigued by some of the new opportunities the MVC offers.

We are a bit behind the 8-ball on the Abound scenario because we moved 18 months ago and even though we did an owner update last December as well as updating our address/email in the owner dashboard back when we moved, we did not receive the invites in the past few months to join zooms and get walked through the new system over the phone. Just did an owner update at Desert Willow and learned that we are just shy of Chairman status in the Marriott Abound world. They of course pushed us to purchase MVC Trust Interests to get us up to Chairman status. (And, their archaic system had all of our contact info wrong (address, phone, email) in the system they used yesterday at Desert Willow, despite my pulling our account up on my laptop and showing them how we are up to date online -- good thing for MVC that we pay our MFs online and that I know when they are due since we haven't received paper invoices yet this year.)

Here are my questions. Sorry that some are very basic questions (we still haven't gone through the tutorials).

1. Is the Chairman level that much more desirable than Presidential? Seems that you get access 3 weeks earlier, but not sure what else we get for the upfront costs and additional MF. They were claiming Titanium Elite status for life, grandfathered regardless of future changes to the program. Limit of 1% of owners in the Chairman level (so presumably, better access if booking in that earliest of early windows). Any other significant benefits different from Presidential? Or is Presidential good enough? Any idea what % of owners/properties are in the Presidential level?

Not really. I don't think there is a scenario where it's worth spending five figures just to get to Chairman's Club. I have been Titanium the past few years (from stays) and haven't found it to make much difference over Platinum. Upgrades at hotel properties are rare and usually very minor upgrades. And it's not "Titanium for Life", it's Titanium for as long as you own all of your timeshares. For some people, those won't be the same thing.

2. We need MVC Trust interests for 1250 Club Points to get us to Chairman level. They offered us 5 interests to get us those 1250 Club Points for $19500 and $850/year MF. Reading on TUG elsewhere I saw someone say that 1500 could be purchased for about $10,000 on the secondary market. Is that true? If so, where do we go to do that transaction? And, does it matter if those interests are purchased on secondary market versus directly from MVC in order to boost the status, assuming we want to go that route?

Somebody that knows more about this will undoubtedly answer you, but yes, you can buy points resale, and then you have to pay a fee to MVC to register those points. My understanding is that once you do so, they are exactly the same as if you'd bought them from MVC.

3. If we opt in for Club Points, do we have to convert all of our properties that year over to Club Points or can we do it property by property?

Property by property, year by year. You do need to elect an entire VOI, so if you have a two-bedroom lockoff, you have to convert the whole thing or none of it; you can't convert just one side or the other. If you own Flex points, you can convert the entire VOI or in 20,000 SO increments.

4. If we opt in for some properties in a year and not others, does that mean we get Presidential or Chairman status only for the transactions in Abound, but lose the Elite 4* status and benefits for the properties that we do not convert to Club Points in a year?

There's no more 4* elite, your status is whatever your Abound status is. It doesn't matter whether you elect all or none of your VOIs for Club Points, your status is your status and it's based on what your VOIs would convert to (in Club Points) if you WERE converting them. You don't actually have to ever do it.

5. Will Elite 4* (now Presidential or Chairman) still get 20% bonus points on conversion to hotel points (we do a lot of that most years)? Is there a similar bonus in the Abound system for Presidential or Chairman level -- I'm assuming you can still convert unused Club Points to Bonvoy points (meaning if we turn a Westin VOI over to Club points in a year but don't use the points that we have a mechanism to then convert to Marriott Bonvoy hotel points -- is this true? I did read somewhere on HUB that in the fine print if you do not opt in for Club Points that many of the old elite bonuses disappear (now there will be conversion fees; will we still get that 20% bonus?)

Yes, the extra 20% on Bonvoy conversion stays for elite owners. Again, it doesn't matter whether or not you ELECT TO CONVERT in any given year. The option to "opt out" means completely opting out of the Abound program, and there is no good reason to do that. You should stay "opted in" even if you never plan to elect Club Points, because opting out means that you give up that option along with many of the elite benefits you get in Abound even if all your trading stays in VSN. People get confused about the terminology, but "opt out" refers to rejecting the option to ever participate in Abound. "Electing" is what you can do each year, with one or more of your VOIs, to trade them for Club Points for that year.

6. At the sales office yesterday they were excited to show us how we can use Chairman status to (early) reserve desirable properties in particular locations and then rent them on VRBO as a way to earn money to pay for the additional interests we need to get to Chairman level. Has anyone had success doing this? The only time I tried to rent out one of our weeks (at Westin St. John) I had no luck and ended up canceling the reservation.

They make it sound much easier than it is. Some people do it, but the VSN rules only allow you to rent stays at your home resort(s), not at resorts you book using StarOptions. I'm not sure what the rules are for bookings you make via Abound. It's also worth noting that when you elect Abound points, you'll pretty much always get less value than you'd get from that ownership in VSN. The benefit is that you can access more properties and you have more booking flexibility (any number of nights, any checkin day, etc.) But if you elect a week that you own to Abound and the turn around and try to book that week (through Abound) with the points you just exchanged for, you'll often find that it's not enough points. That's what people call the "skim" and it's one of the ways that Abound is profitable for Marriott Vacations. So you really only want to elect if you want to book something that you couldn't book within VSN.
I have found renting to be quite a bit of work and hassle. But it can be done, sometimes.

BTW I went back and looked at my notes from our owner update a year ago and some of the property valuations from Vistana to Abound ended up being quite different from what they were speculating a year ago. I know I read on TUG recently that you can take your Staroptions and divide by 30,000 to get to your Club Points, but that is inaccurate. Differs property by property (and possibly by season).

Yes, that's totally inaccurate. Every property (and season) is different and the number of SOs is irrelevant. I own two different VSN properties that have identical SOs but very different values in Abound.

Hope this helps.

 

[Lv2Trvl]

If you book a longer vacation than you need and you want to reduce the number of nights, is this possible without canceling and rebooking? On Facebook, people were saying that you were technically not even allowed to do this. But if you did, you would risk losing the original reservation.

Yes. You can modify point reservations. Only time I had a problem was 4-5 years ago with one Hawaii resort. They (owner's services) claimed the resort did not allow anything less than 7 day stays at that time of year (December). Not how points work. Seems like I called the GM directly and got it fixed. It was strange.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Eric B]

Yes, the extra 20% on Bonvoy conversion stays for elite owners.

I believe the premium on Bonvoy conversion for elite owners becomes 10% for those that are Chairman's Club or Presidential level. Source: VSN club points benefits dated August 2022, attached.

They make it sound much easier than it is. Some people do it, but the VSN rules only allow you to rent stays at your home resort(s), not at resorts you book using StarOptions. I'm not sure what the rules are for bookings you make via Abound.

New VSN rules for rental are in paragraph 8.5 of the latest version of the VSN Disclosure Guide for Mandatory Members of the Vistana Signature Network, quoted below. The one for Voluntary Members hasn't been updated yet. The rules are worded to suggest that the rental option is a bit broader now, allowing booking and renting any Vacation Period at your Home Resort(s) while the old rules seemed to limit it to the unit type and home resort/phase you own.

8.5 Network Member Rentals. A Network Member may reserve a Vacation Period at the Network Member’s Home Resort and rent it on the Network Member’s own account. All renters must comply with the rules and regulations of the Resort Documents affecting occupancy, and the renting Network Member will be responsible for the acts or omissions, including non-payment of any personal charges, of the Network Member’s renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Network Member to use the Unit. Rental by a Network Member of Units reserved through Network (other than a Vacation Period reserved at the Network Member’s Home Resort) is prohibited.

 

[timsi]

I believe the premium on Bonvoy conversion for elite owners becomes 10% for those that are Chairman's Club or Presidential level. Source: VSN club points benefits dated August 2022, attached.



New VSN rules for rental are in paragraph 8.5 of the latest version of the VSN Disclosure Guide for Mandatory Members of the Vistana Signature Network, quoted below. The one for Voluntary Members hasn't been updated yet. The rules are worded to suggest that the rental option is a bit broader now, allowing booking and renting any Vacation Period at your Home Resort(s) while the old rules seemed to limit it to the unit type and home resort/phase you own.

8.5 Network Member Rentals. A Network Member may reserve a Vacation Period at the Network Member’s Home Resort and rent it on the Network Member’s own account. All renters must comply with the rules and regulations of the Resort Documents affecting occupancy, and the renting Network Member will be responsible for the acts or omissions, including non-payment of any personal charges, of the Network Member’s renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Network Member to use the Unit. Rental by a Network Member of Units reserved through Network (other than a Vacation Period reserved at the Network Member’s Home Resort) is prohibited.

Guess who owns units at most if not all the resorts? The developer of course. This is probably done with the intention to rent any unit using any points, any unit etc without bothering with the details.

 

[daviator]

I believe the premium on Bonvoy conversion for elite owners becomes 10% for those that are Chairman's Club or Presidential level. Source: VSN club points benefits dated August 2022, attached..

It's always been 10%. I said 20% which was either a typo or a brain fart… it’s been 10% all the way back to SVO when they started the elite program. Apologies for my mistake

 

[LizMcCoy]

Not really. I don't think there is a scenario where it's worth spending five figures just to get to Chairman's Club. I have been Titanium the past few years (from stays) and haven't found it to make much difference over Platinum. Upgrades at hotel properties are rare and usually very minor upgrades. And it's not "Titanium for Life", it's Titanium for as long as you own all of your timeshares. For some people, those won't be the same thing.

Somebody that knows more about this will undoubtedly answer you, but yes, you can buy points resale, and then you have to pay a fee to MVC to register those points. My understanding is that once you do so, they are exactly the same as if you'd bought them from MVC.

Property by property, year by year. You do need to elect an entire VOI, so if you have a two-bedroom lockoff, you have to convert the whole thing or none of it; you can't convert just one side or the other. If you own Flex points, you can convert the entire VOI or in 20,000 SO increments.

There's no more 4* elite, your status is whatever your Abound status is. It doesn't matter whether you elect all or none of your VOIs for Club Points, your status is your status and it's based on what your VOIs would convert to (in Club Points) if you WERE converting them. You don't actually have to ever do it.

Yes, the extra 20% on Bonvoy conversion stays for elite owners. Again, it doesn't matter whether or not you ELECT TO CONVERT in any given year. The option to "opt out" means completely opting out of the Abound program, and there is no good reason to do that. You should stay "opted in" even if you never plan to elect Club Points, because opting out means that you give up that option along with many of the elite benefits you get in Abound even if all your trading stays in VSN. People get confused about the terminology, but "opt out" refers to rejecting the option to ever participate in Abound. "Electing" is what you can do each year, with one or more of your VOIs, to trade them for Club Points for that year.

They make it sound much easier than it is. Some people do it, but the VSN rules only allow you to rent stays at your home resort(s), not at resorts you book using StarOptions. I'm not sure what the rules are for bookings you make via Abound. It's also worth noting that when you elect Abound points, you'll pretty much always get less value than you'd get from that ownership in VSN. The benefit is that you can access more properties and you have more booking flexibility (any number of nights, any checkin day, etc.) But if you elect a week that you own to Abound and the turn around and try to book that week (through Abound) with the points you just exchanged for, you'll often find that it's not enough points. That's what people call the "skim" and it's one of the ways that Abound is profitable for Marriott Vacations. So you really only want to elect if you want to book something that you couldn't book within VSN.
I have found renting to be quite a bit of work and hassle. But it can be done, sometimes.

Yes, that's totally inaccurate. Every property (and season) is different and the number of SOs is irrelevant. I own two different VSN properties that have identical SOs but very different values in Abound.

Hope this helps.

Thank you. That was super informative and helpful.

 

[LizMcCoy]

It's always been 10%. I said 20% which was either a typo or a brain fart… it’s been 10% all the way back to SVO when they started the elite program. Apologies for my mistake

20% was actually my typo. Anyway, yes thanks for the chart with all that info. Very helpful. Going to go through the Abound Tutorials with my husband tonight.

May post some more questions afterwards.

Thanks again