• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 31 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 31st Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $23,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $23 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    Tens of thousands of subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

A peek into Wyndham's ongoing lawsuit against PCC's [fraudulent rescue companies]

ace2000

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
5,032
Reaction score
152
This issue continuously comes up on TUG and the same things are said every time. There's no easy fix to the problems at hand and that's the real issue.

I feel that if a solution does arrive in the future it will because of the LLCs pushing the HOAs and corporations into that solution. Otherwise, it's proven that they will do nothing.
 

csxjohn

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
6,552
Reaction score
134
Location
North East Ohio
Resorts Owned
Tropic Shores Resort, Bluegreen points
.... It's easy to say the owners that got suckered into buying a worthless week with the promise of being able to go anywhere in the world should keep paying forever until death, but that's not realistic.

And here we are back to the original problem created by the developers such as Wyndham.

In my mind W and others like them started this cycle by Their outrageous sales tactics and obscene pricing.

The original buyers are aging and many can't or don't want to pay for something that didn't turn out as promised.

PCCs came along with a way to help them but in return are hurting all the other owners.

I see it as a never ending cycle and in the end owners at resorts with undesirable weeks will be hurt the most and W will come out smelling like a rose.
 

Saintsfanfl

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2012
Messages
8,851
Reaction score
634
Location
Central Florida
The original buyers are aging and many can't or don't want to pay for something that didn't turn out as promised.

PCCs came along with a way to help them but in return are hurting all the other owners.

True. Most people that want out couldn't care less about inadvertently raising maintenance fees on the higher value weeks that remain. Nobody cares about them so why should they care about hurting the rest of the owners? Take a mud week vs ski week as an example. The mud rents out at a 50% loss, while the ski week rents out at a 50% gain. Some argue that is isn't fair for the mud to default, but how is it fair for the situation to continue?

It's a conundrum.
 

ace2000

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
5,032
Reaction score
152
If the resorts and HOAs would be more aggressive with resales and rentals I think it would help alot.

Correct, and the resorts and HOAs won't be aggressive until the owners push back. But, very few on TUG want to take a stand on that. And even fewer want to actually complain to their HOAs. They'd rather publicly shoot the easy targets - which are the LLCs.
 

Rent_Share

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
5,091
Reaction score
3
Location
SOCAL (562)
There's no reason Wyndham couldn't pick up the weeks people are willing to pay a PCC to dump them and bundle those weeks into CWA and resell at full price.

They need to continue to develop to grow locations but, recycled points that someone will pay to stop the MF cost are cheaper than the WAAM they currently developing under.
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
58,482
Reaction score
10,285
Location
Northern, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim) NEW: 2 Lawa'i Beach Resort!
Correct, and the resorts and HOAs won't be aggressive until the owners push back. But, very few on TUG want to take a stand on that. And even fewer want to actually complain to their HOAs. They'd rather publicly shoot the easy targets - which are the LLCs.

My HOA's are Wyndham and Starwood - think I can influence them? They control the HOA's, and it would take legislation - they don't care what owners think or want.
 
Last edited:

ace2000

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
5,032
Reaction score
152
My HOA's are Wyndham and Starwood - think I can influence them? They control the HOA's - nice theory, but it would take legislation - they don't care what owners think or want.

Well evidently these PCCs ARE influencing them - hence the lawsuit.

Like them or not, they are providing a solution to the problem. The fraud has to be cleaned up, but there are some actually providing a solution here.
 

comicbookman

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
977
Reaction score
322
Location
Dillwyn, Virginia
Actually the point system was a good step toward making all owners equal. Wyndham, Starwood et al, can't publically take back contracts without admitting that their product is not worth what they say it's worth. The only way it would work for them is if they found a bigger revenue stream than sales.
 

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Actually the point system was a good step toward making all owners equal. Wyndham, Starwood et al, can't publically take back contracts without admitting that their product is not worth what they say it's worth. The only way it would work for them is if they found a bigger revenue stream than sales.

Wyndham's CEO Steve Holmes has stated publicly in the quarterly earnings calls that they are buying back
 

Rent_Share

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
5,091
Reaction score
3
Location
SOCAL (562)
It's a precarious balance before the house of cards tumble, and not a far legal stretch for a cause of action based on "you sold it at 20, now it's worth 1-2 or less (000)"

As to the resorts that were built by developers that aren't continuing to develop, eventually they implode and the land is redeveloped.
 

Saintsfanfl

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2012
Messages
8,851
Reaction score
634
Location
Central Florida
Wyndham's CEO Steve Holmes has stated publicly in the quarterly earnings calls that they are buying back

It's crazy but many times owners that want out just don't know. I have been flipping Marriott units for 100% profit or more back to Marriott or through Marriott that owners paid PCC's to unload. I will even see a unit for sale on Redweek for a price 1/2 of what they can get from Marriott through a brokered resale or buyback. Marriott obviously isn't making an effort to contact owners and I doubt Wyndham is either. The PCC's are far more aggressive because that is where they make 100% of their money.
 
Last edited:

famy27

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
608
Reaction score
135
Location
Elgin, IL
I agree that we might be reaching a tipping point.

I keep an eye on timeshare-related lawsuits, and it is getting ridiculous. Attorneys specializing in timeshare contract cancellation sue developers, developers sue Viking Ships, developers sue relief companies that promise to get owners out of contracts, and the occasional state AG jumps in to sue some particularly offensive scam operator.

I'll be watching to see how all of this plays out. I haven't checked the docket, but have any of the Viking Ship companies answered the complaint, or will Wyndham just win a default judgment? If so, how are they going to collect?
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
23,330
Reaction score
9,135
Location
Florida
likely following the precedent set by the washington state AG who shut down that huge viking ship operation run by the Gibbs'
 

Kaiopect8

TUG Member
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Location
Vermont
No criminal prosecution?

Given this description, I am curious as to why no one has convinced any prosecutor anywhere to pursue criminal charges? Maybe that has been done somewhere?
 

Saintsfanfl

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2012
Messages
8,851
Reaction score
634
Location
Central Florida
Given this description, I am curious as to why no one has convinced any prosecutor anywhere to pursue criminal charges? Maybe that has been done somewhere?

It would be very, very difficult to impossible to get a criminal conviction while costing a load of tax dollars.
 

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
I dont get it

If its wrong for a pcc to convince someone to pay an excessive fee to sell their timeshare, why is ok for Wyndham to charge an excessive price to buy that same timeshare?
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
58,482
Reaction score
10,285
Location
Northern, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim) NEW: 2 Lawa'i Beach Resort!
Ron - seriously? Is that all you've got tonight? :rolleyes:
 

csxjohn

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
6,552
Reaction score
134
Location
North East Ohio
Resorts Owned
Tropic Shores Resort, Bluegreen points
I dont get it

If its wrong for a pcc to convince someone to pay an excessive fee to sell their timeshare, why is ok for Wyndham to charge an excessive price to buy that same timeshare?

Ron - seriously? Is that all you've got tonight? :rolleyes:

Ron actually said a mouthful there.

This keeps going in a circle and my opinion is that this whole problem was created by the money charged for "new" timeshares. We've been through the numbers before and what they are charging for timeshares compared to regular condos is way out of whack.

Developers saw a huge market for small shares of resort type properties and told every lie they could think of to get us to buy. It is now coming back to bite them and everyone screams about the cure an not too much said about the cause.
 

Rent_Share

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
5,091
Reaction score
3
Location
SOCAL (562)
Because the underlying transferee is a dummy corporation set up to default on the obligations, A developer can argue their is value in their sale through prepaid vacation accomodations
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
58,482
Reaction score
10,285
Location
Northern, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim) NEW: 2 Lawa'i Beach Resort!
John - No one "said" it was OK for Wyndham to rip off developer buyers, so that is a flawed comparison.

This is just another facet of Ron's, "The end justifies the means," campaign. ;)
 

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Because the underlying transferee is a dummy corporation set up to default on the obligations, A developer can argue their is value in their sale through prepaid vacation accomodations

So the pccs use dummy corporations, to provide a legitimate service (albeit overpriced) to their customers.and thats wrong... but Wyndham is a legitimate corporation selling their customers an overpriced product, and thats ok


in the first case im asked to believe my timeshare is worth less than zero...and thats a lie

and in the second im Im asked to pay more than 5 times its value to buy it...another lie.

pccs and the developers are two sides of the same coin and that coin is counterfeit

I dont see how Wyndham can make a case that they (Wyndham ) have been defrauded by any PCC , much less how that can show any damages. I think that they are just a little jealous that the pccs have developed a sales staff as "good" as their own, and a little up set that the pccs have exposed their lies.
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
58,482
Reaction score
10,285
Location
Northern, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim) NEW: 2 Lawa'i Beach Resort!
Ron - I may be wrong, but I don't believe you can code html. Can you?
 

ace2000

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
5,032
Reaction score
152
Ron - I may be wrong, but I don't believe you can code html. Can you?

You may not realize this about Ron, but when Ron creates a web site it gets triple the page views because all the other developers want to see how he did it. And when Ron promised to start working for Microsoft, Bill Gates decided it was time to retire.
 

Bigrob

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
2,099
Reaction score
141
Location
Centreville, VA
So the pccs use dummy corporations, to provide a legitimate service (albeit overpriced) to their customers.and thats wrong... but Wyndham is a legitimate corporation selling their customers an overpriced product, and thats ok


in the first case im asked to believe my timeshare is worth less than zero...and thats a lie

and in the second im Im asked to pay more than 5 times its value to buy it...another lie.

pccs and the developers are two sides of the same coin and that coin is counterfeit

I dont see how Wyndham can make a case that they (Wyndham ) have been defrauded by any PCC , much less how that can show any damages. I think that they are just a little jealous that the pccs have developed a sales staff as "good" as their own, and a little up set that the pccs have exposed their lies.

I think the key issue is whether, in fact, the subject individuals (I hesitate to refer to them as corporations as they create new LLCs like bunnies reproduce) are providing a legitimate service, not whether it is over-priced. In the case of taking on a "negative value" timeshare where the intent is simply to transfer it to a bogus entity that will be declared bankrupt, leaving the remaining owners responsible for additional costs, is this really a legitimate service...

I suspect that a strategy soon to be implemented by Wyndham (and already adopted by some other TS companies) is not allowing transfers to LLCs. Presumably those already in LLCs will be "grandfathered in" but restricting ownership in this manner is a logical step that may limit all owners' flexibility in the future, impacting for example the ability to create and resell (via ownership rights in the LLC) platinum accounts.

Of course the other side of the coin is... if all other avenues are exhausted for the owner of a negative value timeshare, and they no longer have the means to continue paying and default on the maintenance fees, the rest of the owners are no better off than if they had paid a PCC/Viking ship to set it adrift.

I would definitely draw a distinction between those companies that are paid upfront and work legitimately to sell the timeshare (Sumday, Sean Singletary, Fried, CJ/Discount Timeshares, Jeff Fudge, etc.) and the ones mentioned in the lawsuit. I've seen some of these offer pre-paid MF's, free closing and an Amex gift card of up to $400... obviously they could set them adrift without incurring these fees, so their model is definitely legitimate, even though they collect the fees up front (as they have to, since it's a negative-value "asset" they're selling).

In summary - collecting fees up front - legitimate. Collecting fees in excess of what is required because the owner doesn't know what they have is of value - legitimate but less ethical. Collecting fees and not making an effort to provide the service specified (i.e., not attempting to market and transfer legitimately to a new owner) - illegitimate.
 

csxjohn

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
6,552
Reaction score
134
Location
North East Ohio
Resorts Owned
Tropic Shores Resort, Bluegreen points
Ron - I may be wrong, but I don't believe you can code html. Can you?

I just wish he'd use the comma key when writing those big numbers with all the Zeds.:hysterical:
 
Top