A peek into Wyndham's ongoing lawsuit against PCC's [fraudulent rescue companies]

[Saintsfanfl]

Wyndham hasn't filed a suit against "all the rescue companies." We are talking about criminal behavior that does nothing to prevent "bad debt."

If a timeshare is transferred to a Viking Ship, or the company charges an upfront fee, but never actually sells or transfers the timeshare, how does that alleviate bad debt?



Please name one…

(BTW - I think this thread is mis-named)

Because the companies in question do not only transfer to viking ships. They transfer thousands of timeshares to legitimate people. They only viking ship the ones that are so unwanted that no legitimate sane person will accept it. The legitimate transfers far outweigh the viking ship transfers. I am not defending their business, I despise the defendants, but I am stating a fact.

 

[DeniseM]

Saintsfanfl - I am confused by your statement, because Wyndham is not suing them for legal and ethical timeshare transfers - they are suing for the other stuff:

(1) charge upfront or advanced fees for the sale of real estate deeds when a legitimate third-party purchaser is not in place;
(2) fraudulently induce timeshare owners to pay for fraudulent transfers or fraudulent conveyances;
(3) defraud Wyndham;
(4) defraud consumers; and
(5) permit Defendants to garner ill-gotten gains on an ongoing basis.

You can't ignore the criminal behavior, just because they also do some Legit transfers.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

absolutely no reason not to take the fee after the "legitimate transfer" is found and completed....plus they would literally have clients beating down their door if they chose this model.

I have to respectfully disagree with the first point while wholeheartedly agreeing with the second. The reason you would collect in advance is to get paid. If you send a bill after all the work is done, you have a high chance of not getting paid. It would be fine to collect the fee our of the proceeds, but the examples I am referring to have no proceeds to deduct from.

Do you know any real estate agent that would do any work on a house transfer if they had to send a bill to the seller after everything was done and transferred?

 

[TUGBrian]

you appear to be talking about the closing companies that actually perform the deed/title work....not the pcc/viking ship/transfer company itself.

however many if not all of these large clearing houses have well established ties to the principals of the larger PCC's and such.

 

[ronparise]

Maybe some, but I wouldn't say that the low point contracts can be easily sold. Just do a search on eBay completed to confirm that. I recently had to pay closing fees to finally get rid of my three contracts.

I had a deal with a PCC to take every Wyndham points contract that they got. Our deal ended when they found someone to pay them

Im not saying there is anything right about the way a PCC does business. Im saying that closing them down doesnt solve the problem

 

[TUGBrian]

Do you know any real estate agent that would do any work on a house transfer if they had to send a bill to the seller after everything was done and transferred?

yes, every single one of them.

all real estate agents get paid on commission after the closing...not before. if the deal does not go through, the agent does not get paid.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

Saintsfanfl - I am confused by your statement, because Wyndham is not suing them for legal and ethical timeshare transfers - they are suing for the other stuff:

That's obvious but my speculation was based on the idea of shutting all PCC's down. I think it would be great if other PCC's stayed in business and just didn't take up front fees and transfer to ships.

 

[DeniseM]

That's obvious but my speculation was based on the idea of shutting all PCC's down.

OK - but I don't think anyone said that...

 

[DeniseM]

Do you know any real estate agent that would do any work on a house transfer if they had to send a bill to the seller after everything was done and transferred?

Yes - by law, that is how Real Estate sales are handled. Their commission comes out of the proceeds - there are NO upfront fees. I am assuming you have bought or sold real property - did you pay upfront fees???

 

[Saintsfanfl]

yes, every single one of them.

all real estate agents get paid on comission after the closing...not before.

They don't have to. They are guaranteed commission because it will be deducted from the proceeds.

I am talking about a situation in which no proceeds will exist, which is often the case with timeshares.

I agree on stopping up front fees and then never getting the timeshare legitimately transferred. I am definitely for that. But I am referring to a legitimate transfer with no proceeds. This is a situation where the fee should be paid in advance but would be much better if it was to a legitimate escrow.

 

[TUGBrian]

the problem with your theory, is that we simply dont live in that world.

when 90%+ of the people out there are going to take your money and offer a guarantee that is meaningless....it matters little that the other 5 or 10% have a legitimate guarantee. (I still dont see how you differentiate the two, surely you personally arent going to back up these guarantees)

if you have an overwhelming amount of owners who are willing to pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars UP FRONT....the risk of switching to a fee after successful completion is minimal and easily offset by the overwhelming amount of business that would flood in given the nature of this industry.

 

[DeniseM]

Saintsfanfl - no one here is talking about legitimate transfers - that's not the topic. This thread is about the rip-off companies.

 

[theo]

No calculator required...

And there are "PCC" types out there that are nothing like the PCC's named in the suit. It might be a dirty business but some out there do not lie or viking ship.

Not seeking to start an argument when I suspect that you and I mostly agree on most timeshare matters, but those PCC's that do not just set their (...ahem) "acquistions" adrift on a Viking Ship can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand --- and maybe with a few fingers still left unused, no?

Donate For a Cause (for which I personally have little or no use and even less respect, for other unrelated reasons) is maybe one of the rare exceptions, but how many other PCC's actually take the ownership into their own legitimate name before a later attempt at legitimate (i.e., real person, no Viking Ship involvement) transfer?

 

[Saintsfanfl]

Donate For a Cause (for which I personally have little or no use and even less respect for other reasons) is certainly one of the rare exceptions, but how many other PCC's actually take the ownership into their own name before any later attempt at legitimate transfer?

I am not sure DFC is an exception. I actually came across some deeds in Orlando owned by a DFC entity that were transferred to a David MacMillan viking ship entity. It turns out that they have or at least had a partnership to unload some of the units they could not find a home for. It makes sense because I don't know how you could transfer units to your own entities without having this problem at some point. It's not like the worthless units are really going to charities in need.

Maybe they are all bad, but how does one fix a timeshare unit that has a value less than zero? That is the real problem and not one that can be fixed easily.

 

[theo]

I am not sure DFC is an exception. I actually came across some deeds in Orlando owned by a DFC entity that were transferred to a David MacMillan viking ship entity. It turns out that they have or at least had a partnership to unload some of the units they could not find a home for. It makes sense because I don't know how you could transfer units to your own entities without having this problem at some point. It's not like the units are really going to charities in need.

Well, I guess that frees up still another one of those unused fingers on one hand then.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

Well, I guess that frees up still another one of those unused fingers on one hand then.

:hysterical::rofl:

 

[ronparise]

Yes - by law, that is how Real Estate sales are handled. Their commission comes out of the proceeds - there are NO upfront fees. I am assuming you have bought or sold real property - did you pay upfront fees???

The fees are always paid up front Denise. The difference is that there is a 3rd party escrow company holding the money until settlement

 

[ronparise]

Saintsfanfl - no one here is talking about legitimate transfers - that's not the topic. This thread is about the rip-off companies.

No Denise, the thread is about Wyndham

 

[Saintsfanfl]

The fees are always paid up front Denise. The difference is that there is a 3rd party escrow company holding the money until settlement

And settlement is always prior to a deed being recorded. It is never after a legal transfer has been recorded. This fact is many times missing when people refer to "upfront" fees regarding timeshare.

I think timeshare transfers should have an escrow but not be settled until after resort transfer. That or the resort signs off on something before the deed is recorded.

 

[TUGBrian]

No Denise, the thread is about Wyndham

who is suing PCC's and viking ship entities for fraudulent practices....

 

[TUGBrian]

And settlement is always prior to a deed being recorded. It is never after a legal transfer has been recorded. This fact is many times missing when people refer to "upfront" fees regarding timeshare.

I think timeshare transfers should have an escrow but not be settled until after resort transfer. That or the resort signs off on something before the deed is recorded.

it is however, never BEFORE a legitimate legal buyer is found and the process of transferring ownership has begun.

ie...no agent gets his commission before he actually provides the services he is being paid for.

 

[DeniseM]

The fees are always paid up front Denise. The difference is that there is a 3rd party escrow company holding the money until settlement

Ron - as you well know, that is completely different than paying a Realtor an upfront fee to sell your property. Those fees come from the buyer, thus they ARE the proceeds of the sale.

Your oppositional behavior is tiresome….

The pro-Viking Ship (not so hidden) agenda that you keep trotting out is even more tiresome...

 

[Saintsfanfl]

it is however, never BEFORE a legitimate legal buyer is found and the process of transferring ownership has begun.

ie...no agent gets his commission before he actually provides the services he is being paid for.

Very true, and timeshares of value work a similar way with a legitimate timeshare broker. The difference is that is it is very difficult to find any real estate property that has negative value.

The problem comes back around to what to do with all the negative value timeshares. Nobody wants them. It's easy to say the owners that got suckered into buying a worthless week with the promise of being able to go anywhere in the world should keep paying forever until death, but that's not realistic.

 

[TUGBrian]

and I dont disagree with the problem of negative value timeshares.

those however, are not ones that your claimed "legitimate" transfer companies deal with either though as if there was an option to find a legitimate buyer...the need to transfer to a bogus LLC would not exist.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

and I dont disagree with the problem of negative value timeshares.

those however, are not ones that your claimed "legitimate" transfer companies deal with either though as if there was an option to find a legitimate buyer...the need to transfer to a bogus LLC would not exist.

That's true. So we stop just the bogus transfers. Some keep paying, some bad debt, and some maybe find a "buyer". If the resorts and HOAs would be more aggressive with resales and rentals I think it would help alot.

I agree, stopping the bogus transfers is a good first step.