[2015] Marriott to acquire Starwood hotels

[ciscogizmo1]

For the hotel side, I'm assuming that they will fold SPG into the MR program by retrofitting the current portfolio into MR categories (e.g. an SPG7 will be a MR 9) and that they will covert it 1:1.

Why? Because the number of hotel points required are very similar:

Marriott Program:
Category # MR points need (Saver rate)
1 7,500 (6,000)
2 10,000 (7,500)
3 15,000 (10,000)
4 20,000 (15,000)
5 25,000 (20,000)
6 30,000 (25,000)
7 35,000 (30,000)
8 40,000 (35,000)
9 45,000 (40,000)

Starwood Program:Category Starpoints
1 3,000
2 4,000
3 7,000
4 10,000
5 12,000-16,000
6 20,000-25,000
7 30,000-35,000

I can't imagine that with this data, they'd ever give Starwood members double or even quintuple their SPs.

I disagree with you on this because most of the time the 5th night is free with Starwood so it comes out way lower. I posted real live examples of how I used the Starwood system in the post above. You are taking the typical accountant view and comparing them which is okay but it isn't reality. I'm sure that is how the Marriott corporation will look it. I always check on my Marriott rewards to see if I can get a better deal and I cannot. You cannot stay on concierge level with points with Marriott. Also with Starwood if there is a room available you can book it on points. With Marriott they only allow X amount of rooms to be booked on points. So, for places like London you have to book 11 months out to the day. With Marriott in Europe it can be tricky as you have to book the day they release the rooms for the week. So in London the one hotel I was interested in releases their rooms on Sundays for the week. However, I needed a reservation for Thursday through Tuesday. I had to book the first part Thursday to Sunday and then, book the next week Sunday to Tuesday and, then, I had to call Marriott to use a special point rate. Plus, the category they place the rooms in for Marriott are much higher than Starwood (look at my Anaheim comparison) It is very obvious that Marriott over values their hotels.

 

[ciscogizmo1]

Marriott Rewards Credit Card from Chase (JPMorgan Chase and Co. link)

"Marriott Rewards Credit Cards are available to US residents that have a valid permanent home address within the 50 United States or the District of Columbia only." I believe there are other options for Canada and Europe; hopefully those owners will chime in here.

Thanks for the link..

 

[ciscogizmo1]

The hotels I look at in Anaheim aren't luxury hotels. But here is an example of a Marriott hotel that is rate a category 7 and cost 140,000 points for a 5 night stay in August:


SpringHill Suites Anaheim Maingate

1160 West Ball Road Anaheim, California 92802

1.5 miles from Anaheim


Guest rating 4.6/5


 Save hotel
.

 Free high speed Internet
 Free breakfast
 Kitchen/kitchenette
 Fitness center
Category 7
Hotel Reward
• Cash + Points



SpringHill Suites Anaheim Maingate


From

140,000 points/stay

or


199
USD /night

Now here is a similar hotel with Starwood it is considered a Category 4 and cost 40000 points for a 5 night stay. Remember the 5th night is free:

Sheraton Park Hotel at the Anaheim Resort
1855 South Harbor Boulevard
Anaheim,
California
92802
United States
SPG Category 4


Photos

|

Hotel Information

370 sq ft / 34 m²
Sweet Sleeper Bed
Starbucks coffee in room
Refrigerator
Wi-Fi internet for an additional charge


Average Rate Per Night
8,000 Starpoints



Terms & Details


Reserve


5th Night Free!

+ Show Night-By-Night Rate

The free breakfast Marriott offers is not worth 100,000 points in my book.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Will SVO/VSE VOIs (aka TS weeks) still have SPG-like privileges transferred with equivalency (if at all...) to Marriott?
... equivalent SVN privileges in ILG/II?

doubt it...

 

[vistana101]

For one example, the St. Regis Bal Harbour is 35,000 starpoints for one night in prime season while the Ritz down the road is 70,000 points per night in Marriott's system. A 1 to 1 conversion would be very disappointing.

 

[LisaRex]

For one example, the St. Regis Bal Harbour is 35,000 starpoints for one night in prime season while the Ritz down the road is 70,000 points per night in Marriott's system. A 1 to 1 conversion would be very disappointing.

I didn't even see a reward worth 70,000 MRs in their grid. But you are correct. Apparently, the Ritz hotels are in a category (which Marriott calls "tiers") of their own. The redemption rate for these are rather laughable. Here are the points required for these hotels:

Ritz-Carlton
Hotel Tier: 1 30,000 (20,000)
Hotel Tier: 2 40,000 (30,000)
Hotel Tier: 3 50,000 (40,000)
Hotel Tier: 4 60,000 (50,000)
Hotel Tier: 5 70,000 (60,000)

I've stayed in a few Ritzes (Boston 2x and Half Moon Bay), and enjoyed them, but both were on the corporate dime. I'd never pay that kind of dough for a room with a bed, even one with a chocolate on the pillow. So that's kind of a non-issue FOR ME.

But if you look at the "regular" top tier hotels in each program, it's not nearly as bad. For instance, The Phoenician in Phoenix is a Level 6 SPG hotel, which I imagine is comparable to the JW Marriott Camelback (Level 8 Marriott)? The former will run you 20,000-25,000 SPs and the latter will run you 35,000-40,000 MRs.

Yes, a significant increase, except but not so bad if you overlay the cost per night into how you EARN MRs.

For business travelers who can actually stay in Marriott hotels, they can earn a whopping 15 points per $ spent if they're able to use their Chase Marriott Rewards card. If their corporation restricts them to a corporate card, they can still earn 10 points per $ spent. By comparison, you can only earn a maxi of 5 SPs per night in the SPG program, and only 2-3 if you cannot use your SPG AMEX. So that's a significant increase in the number of points you can earn.

For leisure travelers such as myself, I can earn 2x points on restaurants, which is my #2 category of personal spending (behind home improvement stores right now because I'm in the middle of building a lake house.) The SPG Amex only gives me 1:1 earnings ratio on non-hotel spending, so I'll earn quite a few more points if I switch to the Chase MR card.

And, of course, the Chase card gives you one night in Cat 1-5 each year, with an $85 annual fee.

IOW, I can't say that I'm thrilled to be looking at the sunset of the SPG program. I'll definitely miss the 12,000 SP nights at the Sheraton Fisherman's Wharf and the deals on flights with SPs. But it's not a complete disaster. And you really should look on the bright side, because there's not a darn thing we can do about it except bang our heads on the wall. .

 

[DavidnRobin]

And you really should look on the bright side, because there's not a darn thing we can do about it except bang our heads on the wall. .

How about a Class Action Lawsuit? Oops! Forgot that I failed to opt-out of the Arbitration clause...
:rofl:

 

[LisaRex]

You are taking the typical accountant view and comparing them which is okay but it isn't reality. I'm sure that is how the Marriott corporation will look it.

I only come armed with common sense and the knowledge of what happened with the airline mergers. In the airline mergers, the loyalty programs merged and the ratio was 1:1, no matter what their earnings or redemption platforms looked like prior to the merge. I was active on FlyerTalk during the early mergers, and loyal members of the airlines that were swallowed up by other airlines kicked and screamed about the worth of their miles vs. "SkyPesos."

The good news is that elite members were always given comparable status in the new program. (Though I do believe that some "lifetime statuses" were taken away, though I could be wrong on that.)

What further complicates this latest merger is the former affiliations between TSs and hotels. The former Starwood timeshare division spun itself off from Starwood but retained the "Sheraton" and "Westin" monikers (for a huge fee). II will own that branch. Marriott hotels, which is still affiliated with Marriott TSs company, will now own the Starwood hotels, but will not be affiliated with Starwood TSs.

So my GUESS is that SVN will continue for awhile and then replaced by some II internal currency. This COULD be a good thing if they value their resorts fairly and open it up to Hyatt TSs, which are reportedly nice.

My GUESS is that SO to hotel currency will be discontinued permanently, or possibly grandfathered in. But I think II's focus will be on exchanges, which is where their expertise is.

 

[LisaRex]

How about a Class Action Lawsuit? Oops! Forgot that I failed to opt-out of the Arbitration clause...
:rofl:

That's too bad because had you not opted out, you might be among the victors who qualify for a $25 per night rebate on your next Marriott, formerly Starwood, hotel!

 

[ciscogizmo1]

I
But if you look at the "regular" top tier hotels in each program, it's not nearly as bad. For instance, The Phoenician in Phoenix is a Level 6 SPG hotel, which I imagine is comparable to the JW Marriott Camelback (Level 8 Marriott)? The former will run you 20,000-25,000 SPs and the latter will run you 35,000-40,000 MRs.

Good luck in booking at the Camelback. I just looked for Starwood Phoenician for 5 nights from March 5 to 10th it is available for 100,000 points but for Marriott there is no availability on points.

But you are right there is nothing we can do about it. It definitely makes me sad though.

 

[NNerland]

Please remember that they signed multi million dollar, multi year contracts to continue the licensing use of Westin, Sheraton...etc.

In these deals, which all cost us money, they are done to ensure the continued value play. Will the points be worth as much, one can argue we have to wait and see - but to even insinuate they will be dropped is insane.

Their entire value proposition of their network GOES OUT THE WINDOW - and thus WHY they signed these deals that go into play in selling their developer assets.

I agree we have no idea where loyalty and such is going...but Marriott is picking up a multi-million dollar check each year, and I understand for something like 75 years (that was the contract).

I am waiting for the rolling heads (smilies) -- but Marriott said they realize they are so far behind in Technology and Marketing. SPG was a killer in that area. They are acquiring this. They also stated that SPG had a far superior loyalty program. Yes there is something like 2-1 Marriott to SPG members, but there are going to be MANY duplicates.

My big issues is the new flood of redeemers at quality properties that SPG has, the increased redemption levels, and possible suite upgrades going away.

But hardly one person has talked about how Marriott admitted WHY they bought SPG -- Platform, Global Presence, Website/Tech/Ap

Finally - can we please stop comparing a Hotel Merger with an AIRLINE MERGER. Hotels are NOT Monopoly's and they have a HUGE incentive to reward their customers. Airlines OWN GATES and OWN YOU as a customer based on where you HUB FROM -- Hotels must win your business WHERE YOU GO. I do like some more "value" options when traveling to cities that don't have SPG. But when traveling you still have MILLIONS of hotel rooms to choose from when you end in a city -- NOT THE CASE WITH AIRLINES.....The Gov't has gone back to the GOOD OLD DAYS of Monopolies and we are all cattle. They care VERY little about leisure traveler and all about business. Just look at how the Medallian Rewards have gone - to $$ spent.

Hotels really have an interest in keeping their customers at EVERY City they arrive in and must be competitive.

Again just my opinion

 

[SueDonJ]

... What further complicates this latest merger is the former affiliations between TSs and hotels. The former Starwood timeshare division spun itself off from Starwood but retained the "Sheraton" and "Westin" monikers (for a huge fee). II will own that branch. Marriott hotels, which is still affiliated with Marriott TSs company, will now own the Starwood hotels, but will not be affiliated with Starwood TSs. ...

A minor correction - Marriott, Int'l spun off its timeshare division to a separate company, Marriott Vacations Worldwide, back in 2011. The only affiliations between the timeshare and hotel companies is a franchise/naming rights agreement for which MVW pays MI a significant fee, and continuing Marriott Rewards membership and benefits for the timeshare owners.

When the Starwood timeshare division is spun off to Interval Leisure Group, it appears that it will be a very similar arrangement to what's in place now between MVW and MI. And as explained to me by other Marriott TUGgers, when the Starwood hotels are acquired by MI (which apparently can't/won't happen unless the Starwood timeshare spin-off goes through) at that point the franchise/naming rights fee will be paid by ILG to MI.

 

[LisaRex]

Here's an article discussing just what we've been discussing:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/must-starwood-elites-high-life-171904387.html

The biggest news, I suppose, is confirmation that the programs will not remain separate:

"No details have been released yet on what it means for the loyalty programs but Marriott CEO Arne Sorenson says 'we will take the best of both programs and make sure the bests are preserved.'"

 

[YYJMSP]

I would definitely not be happy about the loss of SPG privileges and conversion options. I took a look at some of the info on the SVN site about the Interval acquisition and I saw this:

Got a "personalized" email with the following:

Dear Owner,

Earlier this week, Starwood Hotels & Resorts (Starwood) announced that they are joining with Marriott International to form the world’s largest hotel company, creating a marriage of the best in innovation and execution.

We want to assure you that Starwood’s previously announced merger of Starwood Vacation Ownership (SVO) and Interval Leisure Group (ILG) will move forward as planned with an expected closing in the second quarter of 2016, creating a stronger, more integrated vacation ownership business. With our plans for accelerated growth and commitment to investing in new Westin® and Sheraton® properties, most notably, The Westin Nanea Ocean Villas in Maui, opening in 2017, the result will be a more robust portfolio of vacation offerings for Owners and Guests.

With the combination of SVO and ILG, we will remain the exclusive provider of vacation ownership for the renowned Westin and Sheraton brands, and you will continue to enjoy your ownership as you always have, including Platinum-level status in the industry-leading Starwood Preferred Guest® (SPG) program.

Starwood and Marriott will remain separate companies until the transaction closes, which is expected by mid-year 2016. For now, there is no change to your SPG program status, Starpoints or existing reservations. SPG members will continue to earn Starpoints and elite stay/night credit for stays, and bonus Starpoints for any promotions in which they are currently participating. Members should continue to manage their SPG accounts and book reservations as normal. We will keep you updated as more information becomes available.

We are excited about what the future holds and invite you to click here to view the recent press release.

Best Regards,

Stephen G. Williams
Chief Operating Officer

Nothing about what happens to Elite-level benefits, other than the SPG Platinum, but that's kinda expected at this early stage in the game.

 

[DanCali]

Point Value

According to The Points Guy the ratio should be 3 to 1 or even 4 to 1.

http://thepointsguy.com/2014/05/what-is-a-point-or-mile-worth-new-monthly-valuation-series/.

I tend to agree. I have quite a few points in both programs (400K+ in Starwood and 600K+ with Marriott) and you get a much bigger bang for your Starpoints. A free Westin night costs 10K-12K points and a comparable Marriott branded hotel is 30K-35K.

Also, excluding status bonus, Marriott gives you 10 points per dollar for stays while Starwood gives you 2(?). Marriott's credit card gives you 5 points per dollar charged at Marriott while Starwood gives you 2.

 

[dioxide45]

Is there a chart out there with the different Marriott ViSA cards and what they offer? I might have to upgrade.

I'm still sad. We stayed in Portland, Oregon at the Nines. We stayed for 5 nights on concierge level for 80,000 points. If I were to stay at a Marriott hotel on the Waterfront in Portland I would have to 140,000 points. So, this is where the points devalue for me. You can never use rewards points to stay concierge level with Marriott. I've only been able to upgrade by paying cash. If I want to stay at the 80,000 point level in Portland I would have to stay at a Fairfield Inn.

Another example is that we frequent Disneyland a lot. So, if I stay on Marriott Points I can pay anywhere from 100,000 to 140,000 points for a 5 night stay. With Starwood I would pay 32,000 - 55,000 points for a 5 night stay.

I won't speculate now but with Marriott the owner I doubt they are going to lower their point structure when all they have been doing is raising them or moving hotels from category to category.

I think you need to look at the earnings rates. For Marriott you get 10 points per dollar. At Starwood I think I read that you get 2? So in order to stay at the Marriott, you would have to spend only $14,000 to earn those 140,000 points to stay at the Marriott hotel on the Waterfront in Portland. For those 80,000 SPG points, you would actually have to spend $40,000 at Starwood hotels to get that same stay.

The big benefit comes up with the credit card. If you have the Marriott card you can usually find promos of 50,000-70,000 signup bonus points from Chase and then 1 point per dollar for non Marriott spending. The SPG American Express you only get 25,000 signup bonus but do earn the same 1 point per dollar. So credit card spending is where SPG has Marriott beat.

Comparing their lowest tier hotels. Marriott's costs 7,500 Marriott Rewards Points. Requiring only $750 in spending at a Marriott hotel. To stay at the lowest tier Starwood that costs 3,000 points, you have to spend $1,500 at Starwood hotels.

If you are simply comparing program to program and excluding the credit cards, it seems that Marriott's program has a better redemption rate.

 

[JudyS]

I agree completely with ciscogizmo1. The cost to book a room is NOT similar in StarPoints and in Marriott Reward Points. 7500 (the lowest cost for a room using Marriott Reward Points during most time periods) is not "very similar" to 3000 (the lowest cost for a room using StarPoints, year-round.) Instead, it is more than twice as much.

And, as ciscogizmo1 said, StarPoints offers a discount in the form of a 5th night free. There is also a further discount available in StarPoints if one books 5 nights (in hotel categories 3 or 4) at the same time as transferring 50,000 miles to an airline. This program is called "Nights and Flights" and it's an excellent deal if you want some airline miles as well as a hotel room.

Of course, Marriott could convert StarPoints to Marriott Reward Points at a 1:1 ratio. But if Marriott does that, it won't be because the value of a StarPoint is similar to the value of a Marriott Reward Point. It will be because Marriott is greedy.

Please remember that they signed multi million dollar, multi year contracts to continue the licensing use of Westin, Sheraton...etc.....

....But hardly one person has talked about how Marriott admitted WHY they bought SPG -- Platform, Global Presence, Website/Tech/Ap

Finally - can we please stop comparing a Hotel Merger with an AIRLINE MERGER. Hotels are NOT Monopoly's and they have a HUGE incentive to reward their customers. Airlines OWN GATES and OWN YOU as a customer based on where you HUB FROM -- Hotels must win your business WHERE YOU GO. I do like some more "value" options when traveling to cities that don't have SPG. But when traveling you still have MILLIONS of hotel rooms to choose from when you end in a city -- NOT THE CASE WITH AIRLINES.....The Gov't has gone back to the GOOD OLD DAYS of Monopolies and we are all cattle. They care VERY little about leisure traveler and all about business. Just look at how the Medallian Rewards have gone - to $$ spent....

Very good points!

I did in fact see that the Marriott CEO said that one of the main things that made Starwood attractive to Marriott was the Starwood Preferred Guest (aka SPG aka StarPoint) loyalty program.

If Marriott does a massive devaluation of StarPoints, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. I'll bet that not only are SPG members more loyal than the typical Marriott Reward member, they are more affluent, too. Of course, companies have shot themselves in the foot before. (Remember "New Coke"?) So, I'm still concerned that a massive devaluation of StarPoints may be coming eventually. But, I don't think it's guaranteed.

 

[JudyS]

...
If you are simply comparing program to program and excluding the credit cards, it seems that Marriott's program has a better redemption rate.

This may be true, but acquiring points through credit cards is way easier than acquiring points by actual hotel stays. Virtually all of my StarPoints come from credit card use. (As a timeshare owner, I hardly ever stay at hotels.)

If you stay at a Starwood hotel and charge the cost to your Amex SPG credit card, the earn rate gets closer to Marriott's. Base SPG members get 4 StarPoints total per dollar spent if they stay at a Starwood property and charge it to their Amex SPG credit card. All Elite SPG members get at least 5 (I'm not sure if some categories of Elite get more.)

If you own a StarWood timeshare purchased directly from the developer, you're Elite in SPG. And, it can actually make sense to buy a developer Starwood purchase, so many TUG members are SPG Elite.

 

[dioxide45]

This may be true, but acquiring points through credit cards is way easier than acquiring points by actual hotel stays. Virtually all of my StarPoints come from credit card use. (As a timeshare owner, I hardly ever stay at hotels.)

If you stay at a Starwood hotel and charge the cost to your Amex SPG credit card, the earn rate gets closer to Marriott's. Base SPG members get 4 StarPoints total per dollar spent if they stay at a Starwood property and charge it to their Amex SPG credit card. All Elite SPG members get at least 5 (I'm not sure if some categories of Elite get more.)

If you own a StarWood timeshare purchased directly from the developer, you're Elite in SPG. And, it can actually make sense to buy a developer Starwood purchase, so many TUG members are SPG Elite.

The same though exists for the Marriott credit card. If you have that, you earn an additional 5 points per dollar at Marriott hotels. So you actually earn 17 pionts per dollar (10 for the base spending, 5 for the credit card and an additional 2 because the credit card gets you to Marriott silver where you actually earn 12 point per dollar on hotel stays.

The credit card for every day spending is where the value is in the SPG program. Earning points on hotel stays, it seems that Marriott has SPG beat IMO.

 

[YYJMSP]

Please remember that they signed multi million dollar, multi year contracts to continue the licensing use of Westin, Sheraton...etc.

In these deals, which all cost us money, they are done to ensure the continued value play. Will the points be worth as much, one can argue we have to wait and see - but to even insinuate they will be dropped is insane.

Their entire value proposition of their network GOES OUT THE WINDOW - and thus WHY they signed these deals that go into play in selling their developer assets.

I expect that they signed up for the right to continue using those names as a brand, nothing more -- I would be surprised if there was anything in those agreements about SPG points, status, etc.

 

[YYJMSP]

I think you need to look at the earnings rates. For Marriott you get 10 points per dollar. At Starwood I think I read that you get 2? So in order to stay at the Marriott, you would have to spend only $14,000 to earn those 140,000 points to stay at the Marriott hotel on the Waterfront in Portland. For those 80,000 SPG points, you would actually have to spend $40,000 at Starwood hotels to get that same stay.

The big benefit comes up with the credit card. If you have the Marriott card you can usually find promos of 50,000-70,000 signup bonus points from Chase and then 1 point per dollar for non Marriott spending. The SPG American Express you only get 25,000 signup bonus but do earn the same 1 point per dollar. So credit card spending is where SPG has Marriott beat.

Comparing their lowest tier hotels. Marriott's costs 7,500 Marriott Rewards Points. Requiring only $750 in spending at a Marriott hotel. To stay at the lowest tier Starwood that costs 3,000 points, you have to spend $1,500 at Starwood hotels.

If you are simply comparing program to program and excluding the credit cards, it seems that Marriott's program has a better redemption rate.

Elite levels of SPG earn more points, so the more you stay, the more you get.

If you're SPG Platinum and stay at least 75 nights, a year you get 4pts/USD. Factor in you choosing the points as your welcome amenity, the Make A Green Choice program, various promotions constantly going on, it's not unreasonable to get in the range of 10pts/USD or higher on most paid stays.

I find I routinely earn 1000+ SPG points per night on $100/nt stays (which also includes breakfast and evening snacks :whoopie

 

[dioxide45]

Elite levels of SPG earn more points, so the more you stay, the more you get.

If you're SPG Platinum and stay at least 75 nights, a year you get 4pts/USD. Factor in you choosing the points as your welcome amenity, the Make A Green Choice program, various promotions constantly going on, it's not unreasonable to get in the range of 10pts/USD or higher on most paid stays.

I find I routinely earn 1000+ SPG points per night on $100/nt stays (which also includes breakfast and evening snacks :whoopie

I was comparing the base programs because it is really the only way to compare apples to apples. Each program has their promos. There were years where Marriott owners could buy gift cards and get at least the equivalent of 25-30 points per dollar for Marriott stays. Higher tier elite members in Marriott get more points on hotels stays also. A platinum member in Marriott using the credit card is getting a minimum of 20 points per dollar for stays at Marriott hotels with no promos. Those same platinum members in Marriott are getting breakfast too.

 

[SMHarman]

I expect that they signed up for the right to continue using those names as a brand, nothing more -- I would be surprised if there was anything in those agreements about SPG points, status, etc.

I think you will find that document covers way more than the brand over the door.

 

[dioxide45]

I think you will find that document covers way more than the brand over the door.

Even if it does, I would find it unlikely that it would require that the SPG program to be continued on indefinitely. That would be a deal killer to almost any sale of Starwood Hotels when Starwood was looking to sell the hotel division. The deal likely does include provisions for ILG to buy StarPoints to give to owners for conversion of their weeks and or other outstanding offers they have to give StarPoints to owners.

I think it will be odd for ILG to long term continue to offer Marriott Reward points to Westin and Starwood timeshare owners. It is possible and perhaps likely, but it would be a strange arrangement. I think it is more likely that they will somehow re-brand the Westin and Starwood properties as Hyatt and offer some type of conversion there. Though that is purely speculation.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out for current Starwood owners.

 

[YYJMSP]

I think it is more likely that they will somehow re-brand the Westin and Starwood properties as Hyatt and offer some type of conversion there. Though that is purely speculation.

Isn't part of the long-term agreement that they signed (anyone have a pointer to it online?) that they have to maintain the brand affiliation?