[ 2012 ] Fairmont / Sunchaser / Northwynd official thread with lawsuit info!

[GypsyOne]

I would not sign a waiver without advice from a lawyer, preferably one representing owners in the legal action.

Or tell them that a release of liability is not necessary, that ordinary common law will cover legal liability and limitations in use of facilities.

Or that signing a waiver was not required or part of the agreement in purchasing the time share, why would one be required now?

 

[LookingForAnswers]

So CleoB... did you sign it? I would think that it the form is presented to you, they expect you to sign it.... could they refuse you occupancy if you didn't sign it?

I know with a medical form at the hospital, they always give you release forms, I have crossed out portions that I did not agree to, and seemed to appease the file clerk.

So, what would you cross off? Just points 4 & 5?

Do you think we are starting to get a bit paranoid? People sign this kind of waiver all the time, without even thinking about it.

 

[MFD]

So CleoB... did you sign it? I would think that it the form is presented to you, they expect you to sign it.... could they refuse you occupancy if you didn't sign it?

I know with a medical form at the hospital, they always give you release forms, I have crossed out portions that I did not agree to, and seemed to appease the file clerk.

So, what would you cross off? Just points 4 & 5?

Do you think we are starting to get a bit paranoid? People sign this kind of waiver all the time, without even thinking about it.

That's true, we do sign these kinds of waivers all the time, but even Northwynd's recent behaviour and questioning trustworthiness, I would be wary of signing anything coming from them.

 

[Quadmaniac]

So CleoB... did you sign it? I would think that it the form is presented to you, they expect you to sign it.... could they refuse you occupancy if you didn't sign it?

g) not signing the waiver does not force the Resort to re-schedule your reservation for a different timeframe.

 

[Spark1]

g) not signing the waiver does not force the Resort to re-schedule your reservation for a different timeframe.

With Northwynn's track record I would not sign anything with these guys. I thought I read that part of our maintenance fees covered insurance for these kind of things. It would not surprise me one bit that Northwynn sees another cash cow here. Why would us timeshare owners trust these bandits?

 

[CleoB]

Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought I read at one time that they were not selling any timeshares at this time? Maybe I'm incorrect, so speak up if I am. But if I did hear correctly, why is there a need for show suites?

Does anyone remember what the estimate was per unit for the repairs? We're in Fairmont right now and dropped by to look at 803 & 807 show suites. As far as my husband and I can tell everything is cosmetic work (except for the poly b pipe replacement). The B side which was supposed to be reworked simply had a shower put in instead of a tub to giver a couple extra square feet to the kitchen area. Anyway, I thought is was around $400,000/unit and from what I see that's way, way overpaid. Their spec sheet on villa enhancements include:
General
· Poly B pipes replaced with PEX pipes.
· Updated look that will transition well in years to come.
· Finishes are highly durable and designed for commercial use.
· Elimination of carpet in the living area and bedroom A side (easy cleanup and maintenance)
· Installation of blackout blinds to provide privacy and a good night sleep
· All Riverside buildings will have foyers and laundry facilities
· Coming soon: wall art featuring local scenery captured by a valley photographer

Kitchen
· New layout to accommodate full kitchen and table in every Riverside B.
· Non-stick frying pan
· 2 extra place settings in each one bedroom villa
· pull down faucet for easy sink cleanup

Living
· Flat screen TV with HDMI hookup
· Blue ray player

Bedroom
· New linens package to facilitate duvet cover wash after every visit
· Decorative bed scarf
· Dressers and armoires for clothing storage
· Flat screen TV with HDMI hookup

Bathroom
· A side – jetted tub replaced with a soaker tub for easy cleanup and maintenance
· B side – jetted tub replaced with a shower to increase the square footage in the B side living space.

It's pretty and up to date decor, but it's definitely not worth $400K when the structure, electrical, roofing, walls and sub-floor are already in place.

 

[gnorth16]

I would suggest re-reading items 4 and 5. I would never sign this and they can not force you to in order to check in. Why would you sign away your rights, even if it was a simple liability waiver without 4 and 5 ? No chance in hell. It would be a fair expectation to be safe if the resort and if something has not been maintained properly causing harm, you bet they are going to be liable.

I never said to sign it, just that it has nothing to do with the lawsuit.

 

[Quadmaniac]

4. The Releasor does hereby remise, release and forever discharge the Releasee of and from any and all manner of actions, causes of action, claims and demands which the Releasor every had, now has, or can, shall or may hereafter have for any cause, matter or thing in any way connected with, arising out of, or in respect of and and all use of or participation in any of the Amenities and the Activities.

5. The Releasor agrees to indemnify the Releasee from any costs (including but not limited to legal fees and disbursements on a solicitor and own client basis ) associated with defending or litigating any claims, demands, actions or rights of action, whether asserted by the Releasor or a third party, arising out of or in any way connected with the use or participation by the Releasor or the Releasor’s guests and/or Minors in any of the Amenities and Activities.

I would interpret that as possibly releasing them from any legal action.

 

[GypsyOne]

I would not sign a waiver. How many times have you had to sign one when checking into a motel or resort? Me - none. Resorts do have responsibilities to the public for safety and security and I would not waive those rights. Resorts have common law to protect their interests if they are without fault.

 

[CleoB]

I never said to sign it, just that it has nothing to do with the lawsuit.

I didn't say it had anything to do with the lawsuit and no we didn't sign it. My husband told the clerk at the front desk that he would take it and read it over (he's done thousands of contracts over the years) and get back to her.

 

[gnorth16]

I would interpret that as possibly releasing them from any legal action.

Regarding amenities and activities at the TS. Again, nothing to do with the legal action going on right now in the BC Courts. I agree its not right, nor would I sign it. They have a similar waiver at their resort in BC (posted by a TUGer last month). Just trying to distinguish between the two so people don't get worked up by mixing the two up. Feel free to get worked up on the waiver on its own merit (or lack there of)....

 

[Meow]

Fill a room with lawyers and ask them if a waiver has much validity in a courtroom. Half will say it may have some value. The other half will say it's not worth the paper it's written on.

 

[GypsyOne]

Fill a room with lawyers and ask them if a waiver has much validity in a courtroom. Half will say it may have some value. The other half will say it's not worth the paper it's written on.

The problem is needing a room full of lawyers to figure that out.

 

[gnorth16]

The problem is needing a room full of lawyers to figure that out.

Let me know where that room is and I will run in the other direction.:rofl:

 

[glowcolour]

Can anyone tell me if it is safe to pay the maintenance fee and deposit your weeks with an exchange company? If there is a bankruptcy will the deposits be honoured?

 

[Duane_Meade]

Rancher, you are entitled to your thoughts, but I come to quite different conclusions. I was part of a group that did a detailed review of Northwynd's proposals and the companies' performance under the contracts we signed. We identified a total of twelve breaches of contract and misrepresentations. Our report formed the basis for a group of owners filing Affidavits and Form 67s with the B.C. Supreme Court protesting the Companies' petition. I will cover some of the grievances.

You are wrong that we don't wish to pay maintenance fees or that we didn't expect maintenance would increase over time. We would just love to be paying maintenance fees, but only for the services for which we contracted and for the lessor/lessee relationship we entered into. But, as a result of bad management and a prematurely deteriorating facility, the Companies are attempting to change the rules and off-load the responsibility of a failing facility to the timeshare owners.

A major breach of contract is failure of the manager to manage and maintain the Vacation Resort in a prudent and workmanlike manner. This failure has resulted in significant loss of value to Timeshare Owners, unreasonably increased maintenance costs, diminished the quality of our vacation experience, and placed the future of the complex under doubt and uncertainty. This bad management was manifest in numerous ways, is self-evident, and is freely admitted to by Company management. This in itself could be justification for timeshare owners suing for damages.

Another misconception you have Rancher, is that the timeshare owners are owners of the resort. By saying that we should not be surprised at special assessments, you seem to be equating our interest in a timeshare to an interest in a condominium, where the owner has fee-simple ownership along with associated benefits. We are not owners of the resort, nor do we have the rights and privileges of ownership, such as participating in management or having an equity interest in the resort. Read the contract. It clearly states we have entered into a lease and that the parties have a Lessor/Lessee relationship. Lessees are not responsible for capital improvements. As Lessees we have right of habitability for a fixed period of forty years and then our rights expire with zero residual value. But, the Companies are expecting the timeshare owners to pay for capital restoration of the buildings for which we do not have an equity interest and only they, the real owners of the resort, will benefit. Of course it has to be mentioned that the Companies attempted to shore up this little problem in saddling us with capital costs by attempting to convince timeshare owners to convert (for a price) to "Legacy for Life" contracts and thus responsible for capital restoration of the buildings. Those that did convert claim non-disclosure of serious deficiencies in the property and contract liability for capital improvements.

Another strange interpretation you have is that somehow we should be happy the Company is prepared to take our timeshare back for a cost of about $3,200. So for me, I paid $16,000 for the timeshare and I pay another $3,200 for the Company to take it back for a total cost of $19,200, and I am done out of about 28 years of timeshare benefits. Could anything be any more ridiculous in its absurdity? And they offer this deal despite Clause 13 of the contract that provides a formula for them paying me out at a discounted amount if I default, which is more the way it should work!

I'll state once again that this Company must not be allowed to win in court. If the precedent is court sanctioned that the timeshare owners can be charged for upgrades to capital structures, there will be a never-ending parade of requests for more money for upgrades. And why wouldn't they? They are the real owners of the resort and only they will benefit from a more valuable property. We are lessees and our rights expire with zero residual value after forty years.

This is no time for apathy. If you haven't signed up already, sign on with one of the lawyers representing the owners. If we work co-operatively, the cost per individual will be minimal. If we lose this case, we all lose heavily.

They sent me a release. It was a farce, they wanted me to personally Imdimify a group of people that I assume were the developers of the sight. for fee of $4000. The whole operation is a scam. Under the advice of my Lawyer just walk away. Washington State AG just settled a case for Millions of dollars against a time share operation out of Lacy WA for fraud.

 

[ERW]

There is new information on the Fairmont case posted on the Sunchaser web site. Looks like the new round will be in October.
I found this information to be important.

7. The determinations made arising out of the hearing of the Special Case are binding on all of Leaseholders and Timeshare Owners who have been served;
a. Service of this Order and of all Orders or proceedings In this matter is
deemed to be effective by posting on the website
(www.sunchaserresort.com) and by service on counsel for the Respondents
or by service In the manner specified in filed Responses; an

So is this basically stating that all leaseholders and TS owners will, whether or not they are represented by one of the legal groups, will be bound to the decision of the court? I am assuming that is what the term "who have been served" refers to (as in "served with notice" that they will have to pay the special assessment AND maintenance fees).

Sometimes legal jargon can mean something totally opposite to what we lay people interpret it to mean. Just wanting clarification.

 

[TS Migraine]

Just Catching up after a while away from this site. Thanks a BUNCH Gypsy One for your succinct and pertinent analysis of both the Contract Breaches and ( OUR) collective grievances concerning them. You have aptly put into words all that I have innately believed and tried to make known to less informed TS owners like Rancher. Thanks again.
Now on a different note, I have deposited my Fairmont time for the last three years and so have accumulated 4 weeks of Time Share Exchange- two weeks of which expire January 1, 2014. I have recently been trying frantically to book these two weeks in Sunny California - Palm Desert area- with NO LUCK! I cannot believe that will all the TS in that area that there is nothing I can exchange for before my time expires! I am beginning to suspect that either Interval International membership is really not helpful, or my Fairmont Resort carries NO CLOUT in the exchange world. I thought by depositing my time I could avoid the hassles of trying to use my Weeks at Fairmont under dubious relations with Management, but this FRUSTRATION in not being able to book a single week of exchange within a two to four month window makes me believe both my Time Share Maintenance/ deposit expense and my II Membership have been a complete waste of my .
money.

 

[Pita]

Limited Availability

Just checked Interval using a one br deposit at SDO and it only showed four units available in Palm Springs between Nov. 2 and Dec. 28. One of them was the Westin Mission Hills! The others were not as nice.

 

[TS Migraine]

Pita thanks for checking. I just checked again for the very same dates you did using my Fairmont 1 br full kitchen as exchange and NOTHING came up as available. What does SDO stand for? I would love to book in a Westin's Mission Hills. We stayed their once before and it is lovely. I strongly suspect that Interval no longer allows Fairmont TS Owners to exchange for their best properties. Nothing comes up for me, not Westin or any of the other 4 units between November 2, and December 28th. What week was the Westin?

 

[gnorth16]

SDO is Sheraton Desert Oasis. Westin Mission Hills and SDO are part of the Starwood network and there is a preference period. For a low period, I am surprised that nothing came up. Did you try Arizona as well?

 

[Pita]

The WMH was a 1BR Nov. 23-30. The others were: Casitas Del Monte 2BR Dec 13-20: Welk Reorts Desert Oasis 1BR Dec 13-20 and Dec 14-21 : Palm Canyon Resort 2BR Dec 14-21

 

[TS Migraine]

Thanks again gnorth16 and Pita. No I didn't try Arizona. I have a medical appointment within driving distance of Palm Desert/ San Diego and I had hoped to make my travel south worthwhile and use up my TS and stay a week. AZ is too far away to work into this engagement, but I shall maybe have to see what is available elsewhere and go "wherever" just to use up my time. I can't exchange any where though, if Interval gives me nothing to choose due to the Legal Petition / Necessary RENO mess that seems to have lowered the previous 5 star exchange value of Fairmont.

 

[Meow]

I don't know if the reason is that Fairmont Sunchaser has lost trading power or it's just an overall problem with Interval, but I have found that getting good exchanges has become more difficult recently. I have been depositing a full two bedroom in high season (The cost of locking off has become prohibitive!) and am lucky to get a studio unit in exchange in any nice vacation areas. ( eg. Hawaii or Southern Calif. Coast). It's too much of a risk to go along with Northwynd's Reno Plan. That's why I joined one of the Legal groups. I don't know what our chance of success is. Probably no better than 50%.

 

[LookingForAnswers]

I checked Interval as well... we have a time share in Wolfe Creek - used to get pretty good exchanges.... but Palm Desert has been problematic for a while. Same units always come up for our Wolfe Creek unit as well as the Sunchasers units. Usually only efficiency units available in the resorts we used to easily get 1 or 2 bedroom units in.

We have a couple weeks still on deposit with Interval, and am hoping that, since the dates of the stays we deposited have come and gone (so probably sold), our future attempts to use them will still be honored fairly. But am concerned since, Interval indicates they will only release weeks if our accounts are in good standing with the home resort.... don't know how long that is going to be, considering we haven't paid the renovation fee.

Regarding the legal counsel. We signed on as well with Geldert Law earlier this month. I have found that the $100 retainer was easy to come up with. Hoping though, that things settle without too much more financial commitment. But to date we are very pleased with their weekly updates on what's going on, leaving us with the oponion that the case against Northmont's proposition is pretty substantial. It's hard to imagine the judge will rule in their favor.

At any rate, it has become quite apparent to us that on our own, my husband and I are not knowledgeable enough to deal with the legalities on our own. I know most who haven't signed on with lawyers feel they will reap the benefit of the work of the lawyers working in behalf of the groups..... personally, we were not willing to take that chance. We can foresee scenarios that may play out well for those who have committed to legal counsel, but not necessarily include the others.

Regarding the resort itself. We just got back from a weeks stay. Initially when the first letter came from Northmont came out this spring, we panicked and deposited our week into interval, thinking that since we weren't going to pay unless ordered to by the court, we would loose our week.... Then after hearing that people were still getting checked into the resort despite not paying, we paid interval to book the same week, but in Hillside Villas instead of our Riverside Villa we own! (lost our lock off fee, and then had to pay interval to book the week.... but as a nice bonus, we were left with the lock off week deposit, which we were able to book for a week in Vegas in December.)

Anyway, back to the resort. Check in went quite smoothly. I told the reception clerk it was too late to read and digest the waiver agreement, so said I would take it to the room to check later.... Interesting that his reason to sign was that "all the resorts" are doing that now, and that since there was no lifeguard on duty, it was necessary to have the waiver signed. I offered to agree not to use the pool.... (only the pool in the check in center was operating.... not the outdoor pool by the Hillside Villas where we ended up anyway) He said, but "no, you could be hit by a golf ball or something". That seemed funny to me, since the resort is not part of the golf course anyway. He said bad example. At any rate, we got off not signing the form. Had they pushed for me to sign the next day, I would definitely have refused, as there were some maintenance issues that I was not going to release them of liability had we been hurt ( For example, the shower handle came off twice when we showered, while the hot water was pouring out.... it was very difficult to attach back on to shut water off )

We went twice to see the renovated unit open house... first time, even though we were there during the viewing hours, room was locked. Next time, we showed up an hour early - room open and had a chance only to take a quick look at the kitchen, but we were escorted out as it wasn't viewing hours and they said the touch up paint was still wet. But what we saw, while looking nice and refreshed, wasn't that spectacular. The new flooring was to be "non-carpeted"... it is that kind of vinyl flooring that looks similar to long wood planks. I suppose this will be durable and easy to replace sections as needed. I was surprised the counter tops weren't granite, considering the cost per unit.

The black exteriors are a nice contrast to the white trim, but I must say, wasn't my favorite.... I did prefer the color choice of Riverside Golf course beside them.... it was a rich brown color, with white trim..... but then I guess color choices are not always going to please everyone.

My husband had opportunity to talk to a couple of locals, who are working on the project.... They, are excited to have the work, and glad the resort is getting a face lift. But then, they aren't being asked to pay for it! In fact they seemed miffed that we didn't want to go along with the renovations. No point trying to explain to them....