2011 "Program Fee" Assessment Increase on Biennial Contracts

[markel]

On the phone with Wyndham financial services now and am getting a completely different answer than I did earlier today. Currently on hold as rep. is checking into what I was told earlier. She just got back and honestly must have confused herself in her explanation to me. I told her that the math simply doesn't work.

I was told that although my program fee DOUBLED, I was still paying the same amount !!!

Next question, when (not if, but when) I decide to dump my contract for free, that is if anyone will take it, I assume I'll have to forfeit my deposited weeks that I have in RCI?? And what if I have a week already exchanged and paid for, will I lose that if I don't travel before transferring deed?

Wyndham is starting to P*** me off.

Mark

 

[Arnie]

Easy Guy!!

Hey Mark, get your use out of what you have. The difference may only be a few dollars a month. While it is aggravating, don't want to throw more bucks away. it seems like there are many responses from the Wyndham reps. That means they don't have the answers either. You may want to check out some of the info on the Wyndham Board.
http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=164&t=9441
Quite a few responses there also.

 

[markel]

Hey Mark, get your use out of what you have. The difference may only be a few dollars a month. While it is aggravating, don't want to throw more bucks away. it seems like there are many responses from the Wyndham reps. That means they don't have the answers either. You may want to check out some of the info on the Wyndham Board.
http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=164&t=9441
Quite a few responses there also.

Yeah, it is only about $5/month and although it won't break me I see this as a turn for the worse, especially with the recent RCI changes. And, I don't like being lied too either. But you are correct Arnie, I will at the very least use my spacebanked weeks and who know, maybe something good will come out of this.

How close to Scranton are you? I'm in southcentral PA and have a buddy heading there tomorrow.

Mark

 

[rickandcindy23]

Many Wyndham employees are challenged by anything to do with common sense.

It reminds me of using a coupon at Arby's the other day. We had one of the 5 regulars for $5.95, and the gal said, "That will be $11.22." I said that cannot be right.

I said, "Please look at the coupon in your hand."

She said very snottily, "Yes, I took the coupon off, or it would have been a lot more. The sandwiches are regularly $2.95 each."

I asked what the additional $5.27 was for, and she said, "Taxes."

"May I speak with your manager?"

"That would be me tonight," was her answer.

She finally charged us $5.95 + 9.0% tax, and had to use her calculator to do it, but she still thought I was wrong. Rick was in the bathroom the entire time. Where are men when you need them. :rofl:

 

[janej]

Hey Mark, get your use out of what you have. The difference may only be a few dollars a month. While it is aggravating, don't want to throw more bucks away. it seems like there are many responses from the Wyndham reps. That means they don't have the answers either. You may want to check out some of the info on the Wyndham Board.
http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=164&t=9441
Quite a few responses there also.

It's over $80 a year for me. But money is not the only issue. It is the feeling that you don't know what is coming next with Wyndham and there is nothing you can do. I asked the rep I spoke to where is the official communication on this policy change. She said "the statement you get". There is nothing other than the statement you get. You are no longer getting a discount. If they decide to charge the full amount of the program fee, at least give us enough transaction credit for what we paid for. They don't even care to be fair.

I'd like to know who we should write to inside and outside of Wyndham that would have any impact in current or future policy changes. The rep suggested go to the web site and click "Contact Us".

 

[rickandcindy23]

It's over $80 a year for me. But money is not the only issue. It is the feeling that you don't know what is coming next with Wyndham and there is nothing you can do. I asked the rep I spoke to where is the official communication on this policy change. She said "the statement you get". There is nothing other than the statement you get. You are no longer getting a discount. If they decide to charge the full amount of the program fee, at least give us enough transaction credit for what we paid for. They don't even care to be fair.

I'd like to know who we should write to inside and outside of Wyndham that would have any impact in current or future policy changes. The rep suggested go to the web site and click "Contact Us".

I agree with you completely. Where is the common sense here? How were EOY owners not paying their fair share?

 

[Goofyhobbie]

All of you who own Biennial Contracts should have noticed a 100% increase in your "program fee" as that fee applies to your particular Biennial Contracts.

DO NOT IGNORE the increase in 2011 no matter how little the change may affect your overall monthly or annual bill. A focused effort is needed by each of you if we are to have any hope of changing the recent INCREASE!

We cannot afford to let WYNDHAM get by with this arbitrary and unfair increase which applies only to Biennial owners.

As an owner of a Biennial Contract, you were probably notified by Deanne Gabel, the Club Wyndham Plus Plan Manager that the Board of Directors of the FairShare Vacation Owners Association has simply modified your Program Fee to address services provided to you EVERY YEAR. But they have literally doubled the Program Fee and they will no doubt apply the increased fee every year going forward. You are now obligated to pay twice the amount that you were required to pay in the past.

You may have been told by the Wyndham Finance Department that you have been paying a "discounted fee" over the years or that you have not been paying your fair share for the services that the "program fee" is meant to cover for all Members. That reasoning, in my humble opinion, is flawed. We who own BIENNIAL Contracts should be billed no more or less than MEMBERS who own ANNUAL CONTRACTS.

Within the Club Wyndham Plus Member’s Directory 2009-2010 at page 391, it is clear that Members with Biennial Ownership (even though they “…receive an allotment of points every other year…”) have their assessment divided in half “…and billed every year…so that the payment amount is conveniently spread over two years.”

Whatever you own, be it a Biennial Contract or an Annual Contract, you should be charged your pro-rata "program fee" based on the actual percentage of your UDI. That means that for a contract that says 105,000 points annually or for a contract that says 105,000 points distributed as 205,000 points every other year you should be paying the same "program fee" EVERY YEAR.

An owner of a 105,000 point UDI (Annual) contract which provides a "Contract Point Value" of 105,000 every year should be charged a program fee determined by the "contract point value" which is 105,000 points.

Meanwhile, an owner of a 105,000 point EOY contract that provides a "Contract Value" of 210,000 points every other year should be charged exactly one half of the "Contract Point Value" every year because the Member is getting the benefit of the same services as the Member who owns the 105,000 Annual UDI contract.

When contacting the Finance Department about this unfair increase it has been reported that the reason for the change is as follows:

The owner of the Biennial Contract has been getting a "discounted rate" and has been benefitting from the services provided every day of every year and should be paying the "program fee" for the 210,000 points (Contract Value) EVERY YEAR.

I submit to you that if you own a Biennial Contract you are NOW being charged an unfair, inequitable and improperly pro-rated share of the "program fee."

No Member of the FairShare Vacation Owners Association should be paying more than their pro-rata share of the "program fee."

Article X, Section 10.02(a) of the Wyndham Vacation Resorts Club Wyndham Plus Trust Agreement states:

10.02 Program Fee.

(a) Amount. The amount of the Program Fee shall be determined by the Trustee as needed to cover the cost of the operation and administration of the Plan ….. The Trustee may establish varying fees among Members provided there is a reasonable basis for such a fee structure. The Program Fee shall be determined prior to January 1 of each year in connection with the budget process for the plan.

Article X, Section 10.06 (a) of the Wyndham Vacation Resorts Club Wyndham Plus Trust Agreement states:

10.06 Special Assessments.

(a) Program Fees. The determination of the amount of the Program Fee will be based upon the best available information at the time of preparation of the budget for the Plan. Members will be required to pay or reimburse the Trustee in the event that for any year the total amount of Program Fees due from all Members is not sufficient to pay all expenses of administration and operation of the Plan….for that year. Adjustments, if any, to cover such shortfalls will be allocated among Members in an equitable fashion as determined by the Board of Directors of the Trustee in its sole discretion.

If you are a Member who has a Biennial Ownership consider contacting Wyndham’s Financial Services Department and/or Deanne Gabel, Club Wyndham Plus Plan Manager to lobby for equitable treatment.

Individuals that you can contact to protest your Bill in writing include the following:

Board of Directors
Club Wyndham Plus Vacation Owners Association
Attn: President
11001 Executive Center Drive
Little Rock, Arkansas 72211

Deanne Gabel
Senior Vice-President
Club Wyndham Plus Plan Manager
Wyndham Vacation Resorts
8427 SouthPark Circle
Orlando, FL 32819

Clarice Shadid
Senior Vice-President
Account Control and Administration
10750 West Charleston Blvd.
Las Vegas, NV 89135

Allyssa Neely
Financial Services Manager
10750 West Charleston Blvd.
Las Vegas, NV 89135

 

[jjmanthei05]

Dave,

I would agree with what you said. I don't own any Bi-annual contracts but when reading the posts about this I thought this was for owners who had small stand alone contracts. For example a 154,000 bi annual contract where their program fee would be calculated out to $83 and then divided in half so it would have been like $41 per year. But if you look at it the way the deed reads 77,000 every year then they should have to pay the minimum program fee that a 77,000 a year point owner would pay which is the flat $83. I thought if someone had total contracts like yourself then this wouldn't affect the fee since you would be over the 300,000 points per year. If this is affecting your fees then that is wrong but I could understand the smaller stand alone contracts with fee increases since there is a flat fee point threshold of 154,000 points.

Jason

 

[massvacationer]

It is a double charge

I own a little more than 300 k annual points - and an additional 105K Biennial contract.

They want to charge me an annual program fee based on 105K for this biennial contract. So, for 2011 they want to charge me $0.51 times 105.

I understand that some biennial owners need to be charged a minimum annual program fee to meet the fixed costs of their membership (RCI membership, etc.)

But I am already paying for that as I am paying fees on 300K+ annual points...and they want to charge me the same amount on my biennial contract as an annual contract!

To add insult to injury, I am not getting an additional reservation transaction for this 105K biennial contract (so I am getting taxed at 105k points with the benefits of 52.5K points)

By the way, the deed reads that the contract is for 52,500 points....

 

[rickandcindy23]

It's wrong, no doubt, but it will take 1K letters to these people before they change anything.

Better to own a smaller contract every year than any EOY contract.

What other ways can Wyndham devalue their own product? I think they stay awake nights thinking of new ways to screw the owners.

And how low are resales now? You can get them with $1 and free closing costs and transfer. No wonder! Wyndham corporate HATES their own company and product. It's disgusting to hate resale owners the way they do, and then devalue all EOY contracts as well, whether they are purchased via resale or direct.

Wyndham should have a new motto: "HOW LOW CAN WE GO!"

LOW morale for owners
LOW resale prices
LOWer than a sleazy snake in the gutter
LOW customer service
LOW in empathy/ sympathy
Reaching all new LOWS in all respects

 

[janej]

I don't trust that Wyndham will do anything even if all of us write to all their executives. They had to know people would not be happy about it when they did it. It is so unfair that we EOY owners not only pay for the full program fees now, but we still only get half of the transaction credits. I end up paying for transactions every year so I would not be so upset if they double the transaction credit for us.

We should all report them to the BBB. They will at least have to deal with the open complains.

 

[massvacationer]

I am surprised that the Wyndham Sales Department did not push back on this - as they sell A LOT of these biennial contracts...and this will make them harder to sell.

As others have said, the logic is flawed on this. I think they were trying to address the issue of some owners not covering their minimum program fee or perhaps being pushed into lower program-fee brackets by having biennial contracts. They could have addressed this by simply counting the annual number of points owned by an owner (biennial divided by two) when figuring the program fee for a particular owner.

I just think that some of the folks in the Finance and Program Administration areas at Wyndham don't fully understand the product.

 

[jjmanthei05]

I am surprised that the Wyndham Sales Department did not push back on this - as they sell A LOT of these biennial contracts...and this will make them harder to sell.

As others have said, the logic is flawed on this. I think they were trying to address the issue of some owners not covering their minimum program fee or perhaps being pushed into lower program-fee brackets by having biennial contracts. They could have addressed this by simply counting the annual number of points owned by an owner (biennial divided by two) when figuring the program fee for a particular owner.

I just think that some of the folks in the Finance and Program Administration areas at Wyndham don't fully understand the product.

This will not affect sales 1 iota. Do you think they are going to go over the "extra program fee"? Nope. They will just say what the program fee is and move on if they say it at all. Most first time buyer and probably many repeat developer buys wont notice the difference either at all or at least not until it's to late to rescind.

Jason

 

[Goofyhobbie]

Apparently Wyndham has noticed that there are some Club Wyndham Plus Members who own less than 300,000 points distributed annually and Wyndham has noticed that SOME of those Members own a single or odd number of Biennial contracts.

If an owner owned a single or odd Binennial contract last year, that owner may have been underpaying their fair share of the "program fee" collected to support the program membership that the member used each and every year regardless of whether or not the contract owned was an odd year or even year contract.

BUT, in the attempt to fix the perceived under payment of a fair share of the Program Fee, Wyndham has included all owners of any Biennial contract including those who own the same contract for every odd and every even year.

Whether or not Wyndham realizes it or not they have over shot their target.

In my humble opinion they are now over charging anyone who has both an even and an odd year Biennial Contract for the same amount of points at their Home Resort.

A Member who owns a 210,000 UDI Annual contract is paying the appropriate "program fee" for the 210,000 points every year.

A Member who owns a 105,000 U-OD (Undivided odd year contract) and a 105,000 U-EV (Undivided even year contract) gets the same 210,000 points at their Home Resort and should be paying the appropriate program fee on the points (105,000 + 105,000 =s 210,000 points.)

Both Members receive exactly the same services for the involved points owned and distributed each year and both should pay the appropriate "program fee" each and every year.

I can see where the Board of Directors may have felt that it was reasonable to step in and say that they have been charging an inequitable program fee when a Member owns a single EOY contract; but receives the benefit of the Program every year.

But, doubling the charge that an owner pays when that owner owns both an Even Year and an Odd Year contract for the same amount of points at the same Home Resort results in a significant over-charge.

 

[siesta]

But, doubling the charge that an owner pays when that owner owns both an Even Year and an Odd Year contract for the same amount of points at the same Home Resort results in a significant over-charge.

true, but why wouldn't they just own an annual then...

 

[massvacationer]

write and call to argue against this

As Goofy says, in his original post, owners should write or call the folks who run the VOA Program trust and protest this......the logic is faulty and it is fundamentally unfair

 

[Goofyhobbie]

Siesta,

Over the years Wyndham and the company that started the program (Fairfield) realized that not every consumer would be able to afford the asking price of an annual contract no matter how small the contract.

Meanwhile, many consumers who recognized a value in Wyndham Points may have been willing to vacation every other year rather than every year because of the cost involved or for their personal convenience.

Whatever the reason, Wyndham was successful introducing consumers to their product by effectively appearing to lower the cost of the point package.

Some of the consumers who bought an EOY contract (as anticipated by Wyndham) realized that they wanted more points to vacation Every Year and they bought an additional EOY that covered the period not covered by the single EOY contract. In other words they upgraded by purchasing a matching Biennial Contract to fill the gap.

Meanwhile, some consumers who had bought an EOY contract decided that they, for what ever reason, no longer wanted the EOY contract and they put that contract in the re-sale market.

Eventually re-sale buyers, like you and me, went into the secondary market and picked up matching EOY contracts inexpensively. The end result was a package that provided what the re-sale buyer desired which was the right amount of points at the right Home Resort every year.

When those purchases were made neither Wyndham, the Buyer from the Developer, or the re-sale Buyer anticipated that Wyndham would end up charging all Biennial Contract owners based on the "Total Contract Point Value" instead of the point value actually distributed each year.

 

[siesta]

ya goofy, biennial owners are getting a raw deal.

 

[Goofyhobbie]

When you get out your 2011 Annual Club Wyndham Plus Assessment Summary (which apparently arrived at your home in mid December) and you look at the back of the cover page you should note that it was signed by Deanne Gabel Club Wyndham Plus Plan Manager.

If you are the owner of at least one Biennial contract the second paragraph at the top of the back page will be of interest.

As is customary, your FairShare Vacation Owners Association's Board meets annually to review your Program Fee. This fee, as you may be aware, is essential to providing you and your family and friends with enjoyable products and services as you travel. In reviewing the costs of providing services available to you each year. which include your exchange company membership, and account and reservation services to name a few, we have modified your Program Fee to address these costs. Please know that your Board of Directors will continue to aggressively monitor expenditures, so that we can provide the products and services that you enjoy balanced with minimizing costs to you.

[Note: The verbage in red is provided by the OP to emphaize the wording that is the first indication of the increase.]

I would be interested to hear from any of you who see different wording in your cover letter that may be different because you are the owner of Annual UDI contracts and do NOT own any Biennial contracts.

Regardless of what type of UDI contract that you own you should see the following at the bottom of the Summary:

PROGRAM FEE * RATE IS ___ PER 1,000 points

The blank should be filled in with the appropriate cost to you per thousand points in your respective portifolio. If you own 300,000 or more points that rate should be $0.51 per thousand.

If you own a Biennial contract please note that Wyndham is now charging you what they refer to as "The Total Contract Point Value" instead of 1/2 of the Total Contract Point Value.

Now look at the Annual Summary Notice Definitions and Explanation which is the last page of the documents you received.

On the back of that Definitions and Explanation page you should see and Explanation and Definition of Contract Point Value:

Contract Point Value
This is the total number of points associated with each respective contract. This is the number of points that are deposited into your account at the beginning of your Use Year. If you have a Biennial contract/ownership, these points will be deposited into your account at the beginning of your Use Year in either odd or even years depending on your contract.

I submit that when Wyndham says that the * Program Fee is determined by the "Total Contract Points and they show the Contract Point Value of your Biennial Contract as the value that you receive once every two years they are double billing you IF they charge the full PROGRAM FEE every year on those points.

Wyndham should actually be billing against the...

...number of points that are deposited into your account at the beginning of your Use Year and If you have a Biennial contract/ownership, these points (should) be deposited into your account at the beginning of your Use Year in either odd or even years depending on your contract.

Wyndham apparently rotates the job of President of the Board of Directors of the Fairshare Owners Association.

Brian Keller was the President in 2008
Brian Keller was still the President as of February 2009

As of June 17, 2009 Terri Dost became the President

As of today, I do not know exactly who the President of the Board of Directors happens to be. However, it is likely that the following individuals are still officers and Directors of the Fairshare Vacation Owners Association:

Below the name of each Director you will see what I believe to be the e-mail address of the Director.

Gary Byrd Vice President

E-mail Address: gary.byrd@wyndhamvo.com

Peter Hernandez Secretary/Treasurer

E-mail Address: peter.hernandez@wyndhamworldwide.com

The Club Wyndham Plus Plan Manager is of course: Deanne Gabel

E-mail Address: deanne.gabel@wyndhamvo.com (NOTE: I have been advised that Deanne Gabel's current e-Mail address is as follows: Deanne.Gabel@wyn.com) Recommend that you use both when attempting to communicate with her.

 

[learnalot]

When you get out your 2011 Annual Club Wyndham Plus Assessment Summary (which apparently arrived at your home in mid December) and you look at the back of the cover page you should note that it was signed by Deanne Gabel Club Wyndham Plus Plan Manager.

If you are the owner of at least one Biennial contract the second paragraph at the top of the back page will be of interest.

[Note: The verbage in red is provided by the OP to emphaize the wording that is the first indication of the increase.]

I would be interested to hear from any of you who see different wording in your cover letter that may be different because you are the owner of Annual UDI contracts and do NOT own any Biennial contracts.

Dave,

Ours reads as follows (apparent differences I placed in red):

As is customary, your FairShare Vacation Owners Association's Board meets annually to review you Program Fee. This fee, as you may be aware, is essential to providing you and your family and friends with enjoyable products and services as you travel. The service teams have worked diligently to manage costs related to the program and, as a result, we are pleased to advise you that there is no CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Program Fee increase for 2011! Please know that your Board of Directors will continue to aggressively monitor expenditures, so that we can improve the products and services that you enjoy balanced with minimizing costs to you.

 

[Goofyhobbie]

The service teams have worked diligently to manage costs related to the program and, as a result, we are pleased to advise you that there is no CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Program Fee increase for 2011!

Learnalot,

Thank you!

That statement confirms what I thought Deanne Gabel, the Club Wyndham Plus Plan Manager, probably was telling Wyndham owners who only owned Annual UDI contracts.

I do not know the number of Biennial contract owners; but I would be surprised if they are not in the minority and less likely to complain.

The diligent work of the Wyndham's "service teams" has stuck it to the Biennial contract owner.

Wyndham by deciding to double the cost of the "program fee" for Biennial contract owners has no doubt easily covered any on-going program short falls and may actually be making a substantial profit off of their back going forward. The effect is unfair treatment for those Members who own matching Biennial contracts that, together, provide a distribution of the same amount of points annually instead of every other year.

FAIRSHARE as used by Wyndham is an oxymoron.

An owner of a single Biennial contract who used the services funded by the "program fee" every year to make their reservations and ask questions may have been underpaying their "Fairshare" of those ANNUAL costs in the past.

However, an owner who owns two Biennial contracts (one every even year and one every odd year) that complement each other and distribute a contracted amount of points ANNUALLY is paying twice as much as an owner who gets the same amount of distributed points from an Annual UDI contract.

There is nothing FAIR about that!

 

[massvacationer]

In addition, an owner who owns a biennial contract in combination with annual contracts is also getting a raw deal. An owner in this situation, is already paying for the annual fixed costs that they incur in the "fairshare" system like RCI membership, publications, billing, etc. The additional biennial contract in his/her portfolio should not be double taxed.


I agree with what Goofy says in his post immediately above "An owner of a single Biennial contract who used the services funded by the "program fee" every year to make their reservations and ask questions may have been underpaying their "Fairshare" of those ANNUAL costs in the past."

Wyndham could have fixed this by applying the annual minimum fee requirement to biennial contracts....... In oher words, in the past a person owning an annual 77k contract would have been subject to the annual minimum of $88 (no-pluspartners) or $106 (with-pluspartners), but a person owning a biennial 154k contract would have payed one-half that $44 (no-pp) or $53 (with pp). One could argue that the biennial owner was not paying his/her "fairshare". Wyndham could have fixed this by simply subjecting EVERY owner to the annual fee minimum....so simple!!

 

[Goofyhobbie]

massvacationer,

Wyndham could have fixed this by applying the annual minimum fee requirement to biennial contracts....... In oher words, in the past a person owning an annual 77k contract would have been subject to the annual minimum of $88 (no-pluspartners) or $106 (with-pluspartners), but a person owning a biennial 154k contract would have payed one-half that $44 (no-pp) or $53 (with pp). One could argue that the biennial owner was not paying his/her "fairshare". Wyndham could have fixed this by simply subjecting EVERY owner to the annual fee minimum....so simple!!

Good argument, however, any Club Wyndham Plus Member is already suppose to be paying at least the minimum each and every year.

If a Member simply owns one Biennial contract and the contract entitles the owner to less than 308,000 points every other year that owner should be paying a minimum program fee every year.

The program fee is suppose to be applied equitably. It is the total number of points in a member’s account that is suppose to determine the rate per thousand points charged for the program fee.

• If the Club Wyndham Plus Member is also a participant in Club Wyndham Plus PlusPartners® the break between point groups is the same but the rate per thousand charged is higher for each group.

• A Club Wyndham Plus Member who is not a participant in Club Wyndham Plus PlusPartners® will be charged the following Flat "Program Fee" if the point account has less than 154,000 points: $88.12

• A Club Wyndham Plus Member who is not a participant in Club Wyndham Plus PlusPartners® will be charged the following "Program Fee" per thousand points if the point account is between 154,001 points and 299,999 points: 57 cents

• A Club Wyndham Plus Member who is not a participant in Club Wyndham Plus PlusPartners® will be charged the following "Program Fee" per thousand points if the point account is 300,000 or higher: 51 cents

• A Club Wyndham Plus Member who is a participant in Club Wyndham Plus PlusPartners® will be charged the following Flat "Program Fee" if the point account has less than 154,000: $107.08

• A Club Wyndham Plus Member who is also a participant in PlusPartners® will be charged the following "Program Fee" per thousand points if the point account is between 154,001 and 299,999 points: 69 cents

• A Club Wyndham Plus Member who is also a participant in PlusPartners® and has 300,000 points or more will pay the "Program Fee" at the rate of 53 cents per thousand.

Source: Club WyndhamSM Plus Program Summary dated June 17, 2009

 

[shaun401]

I own an odd, an even, and an annual contract to balance out my ownership level.

If biennual owners are charged the program fee based off the total contract points every year, then I believe that they should at least received reservation credits for the total contract points every year.

I called in the other day to Wyndham (financial services and customer relations reps) and they believe this is a justified cost for EOY owners. Can't believe they think this logically makes sense.

 

[jjmanthei05]

Time for the dumb question of the day. Is it possible to request your Bi annual contracts become Annual contracts. For example from the information Dave has showed before his contracts list 105,000 pts per year deposited every even year. Could you just request they switch it to 105,000 per year and not have it Bi annual? I highly doubt Wyndham would be that accommodating but thought I might ask the question.

Jason