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[2011] How do you choose the right college?

I am not surprised at the high suicide rate at MIT. I think that it must be shocking to go from being the smartest person among your peers to being solidly average.

I went to look at standard IQ distributions. A person with an IQ of 145 on the Stanford Binet scale is the smartest out of 406 people on a normal distribution. I figure public high schools have a pretty normal distribution. If the graduating high school class size is 406, the 145 IQ is likely to be the smartest person there.

However, if 145 goes off to a top tier college, what was once rare, is now not only not rare, it is simply average. And, 145 will get a shock because there are likely to be people that are substantially smarter than he is.

Some of the people that find themselves in highly competitive environments are many times simply unprepared for the competition. There is an advantage in going to one of the elite prep schools, because that same 145 is going to be challenged on a regular basis. So, going into a competitive college is not going to be nearly the shock.

To keep things in perspective, I frequently tell my bonus son who has a high IQ that although he is smarter than the average person, in the metroplex alone, there are about 15,000 other people who are at least as smart as he is. And alot of the people are going to be smarter.

I thought that perhaps the bleak weather influenced suicides there also. But I found that the suicide rate in Massachusetts is one of the lowest in the country. 47th out of 51 (they included District of Columbia which is 51st).

elaine
 
The gist I got from the various articles in the Globe was that MIT was solidly focused only on academics, and behind the curve for a very long time on all the mental health aspects of young brilliant adults leaving the "safety" of being big fish in a small pond situations. They simply did not acknowledge that the administration must make mental health concerns equal to academic concerns. I understand that their Mental Health Services have come a long way since the high suicide rate was publicized and/or the stigma of it was removed. They've also taken steps to more positively incorporate the inherent competition level among students - on a simple level by encouraging non-academic silliness such as intra-dorm frisbee tournaments and similar things, and on a complex level by offering services similar to that offered by Sports Psychologists in situations when the "win at any cost" mentality threatens to become dangerous.

If I was Boca I'd be asking questions to find out if these reactionary measures that have been reported to be happening, actually are. At the very least I'd find out how many qualified mental health counselors are available to the students, and if the on-campus Health Services make it easy for the students to ask for help and get it without being branded in any way.
 
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tombo:
Southerners(Rebels) sure have a thin skin.


Chicago is not in Northeast and we usually lump it in with the South.
 
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You know, one concern I would have if I had a high schooler going off to college these days, is the effect that growing up in this "connected 24/7" world has had on them. Back when we were living in dorms it meant that you had a roommate, you both had a bed and a desk in your room, maybe a microwave and a telephone ... and there was a common room on every floor where you socialized or had group study sessions. You did your research in the library and somebody made sure that the setting was conducive to success.

I'm watching my nieces and nephews go off to school now and they bring every creature comfort under the sun with them. Common rooms are few and far between because they all have fridges, microwaves, tv's and computers in their rooms. Their cell phones may as well be surgically attached to them because there's no way that they'll go anywhere without them, and heaven forbid a professor try to tell them that their phones have no place in the classroom.

These kids already do more than half their socializing through electronics while high schoolers. On campus they can literally go for weeks on end without having any extended social contact with the people who actually live with them. That cannot be good. But if you say that to them, they'll tell you that the social interaction they're getting with their friends through texting, FaceBook, Skype, etc... is a perfectly good substitute for the interaction we used to do in the Common Rooms. Is it?

As far as academics, their computers can open the world to them. But if they're only putting half their computer time into academics and the other half into electronic socializing, and nobody is in the immediate vicinity to encourage academic success, how much will they attain?

I think college is probably a more lonely world for them than it was for us, and that's not a good thing.
 
You are bragging about being number 34 in the ranking of Public Universities? LOL. It's actual ranking is number 79 in national Universities.

Saying SEC schools (aside from Vanderbilt) are anywhere close to any of the top 20 Private Universities in the Country is like saying Alabama is close to San Jose State in football. It just isn't true no matter how you spin it.

The University of Alabama is ranked 34th among public national universities and 79th among all universities, both public and private, according to U.S. News and World Report’s annual rankings for 2011. The ranking places UA in the top 6 percent of the 1,400 colleges and universities surveyed by U.S. News. There are approximately 2,700 four-year public and private colleges and universities in the country. UA has been ranked among the top 50 public universities in the nation for the last 10 years.

To be in the top 6% of all universities in the US academically and top 5% athletically is something I am absolutelly proud of. 2621 Universities both public and private are ranked below us. 94% of the Universities in the US wish they were ranked as well as we are academically and few come close to us in athletics. Win, win.

Of course we do not rank with the top 20 PRIVATE schools, but we cost about 10 times less. You can get a top 6% education at Bama for about $30,000 tutition for 4 years. That is affordable for many families. $240,000 plus for a top private college is not.

Is Yale or Harvard worth more than Bama. For many degrees and the prestige that answer is yes. Is the 4 year Ivy League degree worth $200,000 more? Not to me.:shrug:
 
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Wow - we just got home and I finished reading all the responses.
Well as far as football, it doesn't matter to Zac because he's not a sports guy. As a matter of fact, one thing he liked about CM was the tour guide explained they are a tier 3 (at best ) sports place -they play lousy intermurals- Zac felt he could fit in and actually play for fun.

Boca and SueJ - some of your comments really hit home. Boca - Zac doesn't really want to be so far away that he can't visit if he feels like it. He's not the type to get homesick, but still. Sue, yeah - we're trying to go with gut feelings.

We have so much more looking to do - and I really appreciate everyone's input. I forget who suggested finding someone in the field to talk to - that was a great idea. Thank you.
 
And this thread really illustrates the importance of a good fit.

My bonus daughter attended and graduated from UVA law school.

She toured, but did not apply for Yale. The campus was too derelict. A bad neighborhood, somewhat isolated.

She toured, applied for Harvard, and was accepted. She chose not to go because of the cut-throat atmosphere at the law school. (Ian paid that application fee and he kept the acceptance letter).

She found UVA to be collegial and sufficiently elite (despite that it is in the South). She is now a "high stakes corporate litigator*." We are proud of her.

And, for her, she chose well. Laura is very sociable. She is extremely intelligent. She had been participating in mock trial since she was in high school. She went to MacAlester College in Minneapolis because it has a highly regarded mock trial team. She won 6 all american mock trial awards in undergraduate school. So, her small liberal arts college was the perfect place for her. And she still got into very prestigious law schools because she did so well in undergrad.

I think that those students that have laser like focus on what they want to accomplish need to choose towards their ultimate goal. Those students that are still uncertain, need to go someplace that will give them great building blocks for whatever they may ultimately settle upon.

I was a dilettante. I had no idea what I wanted to do, but I knew some of the things that I did not want to do: engineering, music, art, theatre, biology, English, history, political science and psychology.

Possibilities for me: architecture, chemistry, math, accounting, finance, sociology, economics. By the time that I graduated, I knew that what I wanted to be was a financial analyst. I wanted to work on a MBA in finance.

So, even if your son does not know what he wants to do, he may know what he does NOT want to do.

He may have a feel for whether or not he needs a campus with a well integrated social life. Or he may want a stimulating academic environment. Or a football team or basketball team to root for.

He may want to get lost in the enormity of a state school. If he has interests that are uncommon, he may need not only the enormity, but the diversity, of a large campus.

Or he may want his professors to be able to recognize him and say, "Hey, I missed you in class today." Or do what one of my economics professors did to me and call me at my boyfriend's apartment because i did not make a perfect score on one of my tests (for 5 semesters, I had not missed even one question) -- he called to tell me to get back to the dorm and study. But that feeling of being cared about was critical to my success in school. I knew that I was being carefully watched - the benefit of having an average class size of less than 20 students - and I didn't want to let anyone down.

I hope you have fun with this. College touring can be a blast. And it is a great bonding experience. Good luck!

elaine

Hahaha. For some reason, my mother very much wanted me to go to UVA. I hated it during my tour- my student tour guide was wearing a pleated skirt, blue blazer with gold emblem, pearl necklace and white gloves in 1988! I felt there was no way in a million years I would ever fit in there, told my Mom I did not want to even finish the tour. She made be stick it out to be polite, but then I was out of there and never applied. I bet I would have liked it just fine, but my first impresion was No WAY am I going to this school!

H
 
I really like your post. However, USC is the place to go to Film school. LOL.

Tell that to those who went to UCLA. ;)

Agree with you both...I have a son who really wants to do film. He will be at UCSD this fall as a visual arts/media major and he is already thinking about transferring to either UCLA or USC in a couple of years...

Baca, I knew what you meant about Alabama and SJSD's football teams...I was just teasing you...;)

Ellen, so sorry we hijacked your thread about college. After sending two kids to college in recent years, all I can say are:

1. It's not too early to start college visits before starting 11th grade

2. College admission these days are truly a crap-shoot. It's not totally based on the GPA and/or SAT scores, and extracurricular activities may or may not help. Thus, it is important to apply to as many schools that your kid is interested in attending as you could reasonably afford.

3. Whatever your kids want to major now, more often than not they will change majors during college. Thus, it is also important to figure out which school is easier to do so.

Good luck! One more thing, I find collegeconfidential.com to be quite helpful, but be forewarned that it could be just as addictive as TUG. :)
 
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Wasn't there a book years ago titled "I learned all I needed to know in kindergarten?" ;)

It should have been that simple.:D
 
Back when we were living in dorms it meant that you had a roommate, you both had a bed and a desk in your room, maybe a microwave and a telephone ...

Wow, you had a microwave?! I'm feeling old! ;)

Although I graduated from Penn State (35,000 students at the time), I spent my first 2 years at Univ. of Richmond (3,500 students at the time). By the time I got to PSU, I really appreciated the small class size of UofR. There was no getting lost in the crowd, and your Professors knew your name and had the time, and inclination, to give you extra help.

One of my basic requirement classes at Penn State had 1,000 students in it. Not fun if you're a Freshman.

Cheers!
 
.. Back when we were living in dorms it meant that you had a roommate, you both had a bed and a desk in your room, maybe a microwave and a telephone ... and there was a common room on every floor where you socialized or had group study sessions...

I had NO microwave or telephone in the room (and no refrigerator anywheres). A internal college extension phone was on the landing between the 2nd & 3rd floor (if anyone bother to answer it). The common room (with a TV) was called the dorm's lobby on the first floor. There was 2 outlets in the room I shared with another girl. A bath tug (with NO shower) in a jack & jill bathroom. Our room & dorm was also shared with palmento bugs - very large ones which could wake you when they scamper across the hardwood floors.

After 125 years, this week the college tore down my dorm. :bawl: It was a major historic building - on the national register - one of the oldest buildings at the oldest college (means the FIRST college) in all of Florida.:bawl: It is a sad week. :bawl:
 
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Agree with you both...I have a son who really wants to do film. He will be at UCSD this fall as a visual arts/media major and he is already thinking about transferring to either UCLA or USC in a couple of years...

Baca, I knew what you meant about Alabama and SJSD's football teams...I was just teasing you...;)

Ellen, so sorry we hijacked your thread about college. After sending two kids to college in recent years, all I can say are:

1. It's not too early to start college visits before starting 11th grade

2. College admission these days are truly a crap-shoot. It's not totally based on the GPA and/or SAT scores, and extracurricular activities may or may not help. Thus, it is important to apply to as many schools that your kid is interested in attending as you could reasonably afford.

3. Whatever your kids want to major now, more often than not they will change majors during college. Thus, it is also important to figure out which school is easier to do so.

Good luck! One more thing, I find collegeconfidential.com to be quite helpful, but be forewarned that it could be just as addictive as TUG. :)

haha - no problem with the hijacking! Glad we aren't nuts starting so early - and I realize his career desire may change. Thanks for the forum!!!
 
Pick 3 or more schools and write them down on a piece of paper. Then ask the student to pick a number between 9 and 21.

Now have the student place their index finger on the first school they wrote down and alternate choices by saying...........

Ennie, Meanie Miney, Moe, This is where I want to go. My mother told me to pick the very best one. Now use the chosen number between 9 - 21 to count the schools down.

BINGO
 
I'm a strong proponent of liberal arts colleges or small universities. I don't like the way students often come in with a major now; how on earth does a 17 or 18 year old already know what s/he wants to do? I sure didn't. I wouldn't want to send my kids to a college where they were locked into a major from day one; I'd like them to take a variety of courses for the first few years and see what they become interested in.

I also hate how much college is now linked to jobs; I'm thinking of all the articles about "which college (or major) is worth more." Worth more in what way? Salaries seem to be about all those articles focus on.

Ivy League schools are great for the real achievers, but all those top-of-the-class students are going to find themselves average. A problem with some Ivy League schools is the number of TAs who are teaching undergrads. I did my PhD at Cornell, simultaneously taking a lot of undergrad math courses (math was not my primary field), and many of the math courses were taught by TAs who really weren't so good at teaching. For grad school, Ivy is great, because you can do research with some of the top in the field, but you're not talking grad school yet.

I like the Community College for two years and then transfer route, except that the instructors in CCs are pretty pot luck. You can get really good profs who may be moonlighting or retired from elsewhere, or you can get those who can't get a job anywhere else. Nonetheless, it's a good way to experience a variety of the basic courses without the expense.

I prefer the smaller schools because of smaller classes and more student/faculty interaction. When I taught at a small liberal arts college my door was always often, and it often was a zoo in there with students asking questions, arguing, etc. I loved it. You can get that at smaller state universities (think Millersville or Ship) but not at a huge school. On the other hand huge schools have opportunities that can't be found elsewhere.

I guess it mostly depends on what he wants to do - and I don't necessarily mean for a job. What is he, and what is the family, looking for? Career Prep? Does he know what he wants to do (as DD has known since probably 7th grade)? Is he looking for the college experience? sports? music? Is he super academic? super motivated? unsure but interested in finding out? unsure about whether to go at all? likely to go "woo hoo, no parents, it's party time!"? How close to home? I wanted to go away, while my parents thought it'd be great if I came home on weekends. (I won that one.) You've got some awesome choices nearby - Haverford, Temple, etc.

Also look for "feel" - how comfortable is he on the campus? with the tour? DH almost went to F&M, but had a bad experience on the tour so that was that.
 
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. . 2 outlets in the room I shared with another girl. A bath tug (with NO shower) in a jack & jill bathroom. . . .

Normally I wouldn't pick on a typo, but couldn't resist saying that maybe you've been on TUG too much?
:hysterical: :hysterical:
 
A couple of more points about Penn State and then I'll shut up. :)

1) as an in-state resident, tuition is very easy on the pocketbook.

2) when I was in the system (I do not know if this is still true, but I think it is), the majority of students who applied were directed toward one of the many smaller 2 year "satellite" campuses located around the state. Each campus had a specialty and the campus you were directed to was based on your chosen major. After you completed your 2 years, you transfered to the main campus at State College. You always had the option of changing your major at any point in time.

Lastly, watch out for the campus in Erie. My roommate said it was a BIT_H in the winter with the wind wiping in off of the lake. :D

Cheers!
 
I am a little perplexed by the comments about the lack of personal interaction with professors if you go to a big university, that was totally not my experience although I was one of about 20,000 undergrads.

I failed my Romantic Poetry midterm (complicated story), my professor would not let that slide, I was called into her office to explain myself and finally was told she was not going to accept the grade, I'd better ace the final because that was going to be my grade in the course.

I was in a sequence of six HUGE (maybe 200 student) chemistry classes but small labs and abundant access to my professors, really learned chemistry unlike my high school AP chem class of 16 individuals. If I needed some face time to more fully understand something, one could always schedule time with the professors and they'd be glad to help out.

Was on a number of occasions invited to dinner at professor's houses and two of the first people I called when I returned to NC were old professors from UNC. Maybe I had a unique experience but I would say that it is not inevitable that students at big universities get lost in the shuffle. Yes, it was a big place. But each individual department was not so big. My worlds were the English, Chinese and Chemistry departments and this were not overwhelmingly large worlds.

H
 
pjrose:
I had full professors for my math courses at Cornell. I had Prof Israel Herstein(wasted on me) for Calculus who was a world class mathematician(look up in Wiki)
 
Heathpack - you're right, even in the 200 person classes students can seek out help and most professors would welcome more student interaction. I just don't think it's as much a part of the campus climate like it is at small schools. At the small schools I've been involved with, everyone in the class going out for pizza with the prof, maybe even at the prof's house, was pretty common. I would always reserve a faculty lounge or some such place for students' oral presentations at the end of the term, with pizza or subs or whatever - paid for by the department or the dean's office in the interest of fostering student/faculty interaction. Students couldn't be anonymous, and I think got more out of school because of it. Of course that doesn't work for everyone, but it sure did for me and DH and DS, all of whom were/are undergrads at traditional small liberal arts colleges. I didn't realize that could also be part of the big university experience, but it makes sense that departments are smaller worlds than the entire university.

e.bram - I also took math classes with some superb faculty at Cornell. However around half of my undergrad classes were taught by TAs. I taught as a TA at both Cornell and Univ of NH, and honestly don't think it's quite right for a student and family to be paying tuition and be taught by another student maybe just a few years older than the undergrad. Helping teach? guest lecture? leading discussion groups? sure - but sole responsibility, no. Also, in many subjects there's a high proportion of grad students for whom English is not the native language, and that can make it harder for the undergrads.

Anyway, small college or large university or anything in between, the student and family need to figure out the best fit, and it's likely that the student will get out of it whatever s/he puts into it. (too many clichés, but it's late)
 
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I remember spring of my senior in high school, looking at my options and fretting about how do I know which is the best choice. Then a light bulb went off in my brain, and I realized that the biggest impacts in my life were going to come from the people that I met, the relationships that were formed, whether or not I hit it off with a professor in a particular class, etc. And those issues were matters were largely random; there was no way that I or anyone could ever predict how those factors would play out.

With that I felt a great relief - I knew that no amount of effort could ever lead me to know what was the "right" answer. What I should simply do is make the best decision based on the information available to me at the time, knowing that the information was actually most important was unknown to me. The best I could do was make a decision based on the wholly inadequate information available to me, and be content with whatever I decided.

****

Looking back now I fully concur with the sentiment that it's really not that important where you go to school - or even that you finish school. What is most important is what you do with the information and knowledge that you acquire. And that is a factor that has little to do with what school you select.
 
.....Anyway, small college or large university or anything in between, the student and family need to figure out the best fit, and it's likely that the student will get out of it whatever s/he puts into it. (too many clichés, but it's late)

...Looking back now I fully concur with the sentiment that it's really not that important where you go to school - or even that you finish school. What is most important is what you do with the information and knowledge that you acquire. And that is a factor that has little to do with what school you select.

Bingo! :clap:

Cheers!
 
haha - no problem with the hijacking! Glad we aren't nuts starting so early - and I realize his career desire may change. Thanks for the forum!!!

Ellen,

I was worried about my son because he seemed so disinterested in college until well into his Junior year. Every attempt I made to get him to think about college ended up in a shrug. Then, all of a sudden, he got really interested. It was strange how it happened. It seemed to coincide with the PSAT. He got a really good score and will likely become a National Merit Finalist. All of a sudden, he started thinking about where he could go.

Then, we sent him on a college tour during Spring break with about 50 kids in his class. Then, he got really interested in college. He has his short list done already. He has also taken all of his standardized tests. Now all he has to do is apply. I was amazed at how fast it all came together.

Jason, my middle son, already knows what he wants to do and where he wants to go. In summer school, he already went to the college counselling center and printed off all the requirements for admissions. He is going into 9th grade. It's amazing how each kid is so different.
 
I remember spring of my senior in high school, looking at my options and fretting about how do I know which is the best choice. Then a light bulb went off in my brain, and I realized that the biggest impacts in my life were going to come from the people that I met, the relationships that were formed, whether or not I hit it off with a professor in a particular class, etc. And those issues were matters were largely random; there was no way that I or anyone could ever predict how those factors would play out.

With that I felt a great relief - I knew that no amount of effort could ever lead me to know what was the "right" answer. What I should simply do is make the best decision based on the information available to me at the time, knowing that the information was actually most important was unknown to me. The best I could do was make a decision based on the wholly inadequate information available to me, and be content with whatever I decided.

****

Looking back now I fully concur with the sentiment that it's really not that important where you go to school - or even that you finish school. What is most important is what you do with the information and knowledge that you acquire. And that is a factor that has little to do with what school you select.

yeah, but it helps that you went to Stanford. My son would kill to go there.
 
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