2010 Maintenance Fee Thread

[DanCali]

The board says it is appealing the valuation and the valuation method. We will see how that comes out.

Ok - Changed my username again (*WoodMFs2Hi -> DanCali). This one will stick for a while - or until *Wood gives me a new excuse...

Personally I think that focusing on the Maui taxes is important but it is a secondary issue in the grand scheme of Starwood. I think the main issue which impacts everyone, including Maui owners, is the audacity Starwood had over the years to keep raising MFs to unsustainable levels at all resorts. Even increases of 6%-8% a year are unrealistic and unsustainable over time because MFs would double every 10 years, and this is a "lifetime investment". Not many things double every 5-10 years (certainly not maintenance/labor costs) and this is pure corporate greed that is killing us. As much as we enjoy going to these places and may not care about the fact our equity is becoming worthless, I assume that nobody wants their children to inherit a worthless "asset" which is actually a liability that will haunt them.

Many Starwood resorts even averaged increases of more than 10% a year. MFs on Maui were up 60% over 5 years before the tax issue even came up a few weeks ago. It is this trend that has caused the beautiful WKORV/N units to be worth 80% less than what they were 3-4 years ago on the resale market. Solving the Maui tax issue won't cure this fatal disease - it will only weaken the pain temporarily.

Owners might be better served at this point selling these as condos for $1M-$2M each, splitting into 52 and walking away with $20K-$40K each... If it were possible, I'd take that in heartbeat and buy a Marriott unit (resale) next door.

 

[DanCali]

I just got my bill for my Sheraton Vistana Villages 2bd and it went from 978 to 1264 . I haven't received the bill for the 1 bd PGA and I'm worried! That is over 30%!!! I am beginning to see that it is much cheaper to just pay upfront wherever I want to go. I would walk away if I owed anything on them but I "own" them outright. It looks like they are going to punish the ones who stick it out until even we begin to wonder if it's worth it. Does anyone know if they buy back?

They don't buy back- at least not publicly.

If you own SVV Bella or Key West you can still sell it on the resale market. Unlike other resorts where owners can't even sell their units, SVV Bella and Key West still have some value because of the StarOptions. Depending on your unit and season, you can probably net around $1K-$6K.

 

[gregb]

On the other hand, TSs are taxed on the "highest and best use" which means, I assume, that we're taxed as if the complex is 100% full and if they can command $800 a night for Christmas week, then they extrapolate that rate for the entire year. That's where the huge increase came in, I believe.

Do I have that right?

Highest and Best use does not mean that they think the units will be full all the time. What is means is that a piece of property should be taxed at the highest tax rate that it could be used for. So if your property is in a resort district, it gets taxed as the resort property rate, not the residential rate.

When I looked at the Maui county tax rules yesterday, I discovered some other interesting items. If you are a resident of Maui, you can claim a $300,000 (that's right $300K) homeowners exemption on your principle place of residence. And if that happens to be a unit in a condo, your condo gets reclassified to the lower homeowner rate. So with the lowest rate ($2 / $1000 valuation) and the homeowners exemption, it seems that residents are paying for almost nothing. It might be interesting to see the actual amounts the county collects from each property class. Given what I see in the regulations, I expect that the majority of the collections come from hotels, timeshares and commercial property.

Greg

Edit: I just verified that in California, the land of high housing costs, my homeowners exemption is a measly $7,000. Nowhere near the $300,000 that Maui residents get.

 

[DisneyDerek]

Not like 3 star elite status

Hi Derek - Starwood handpicks the Board of Directors, so you will most likely never get a ballot to approve anything. Welcome to TUG! There are lots of us who agree with you!

Thanks Denise for the clarification. Given the MFs hikes, I'm regretting 3 star elite status for my wife & me and encouraging my in-laws to buy Westin as well. I had been a solid SVN fan before, now I'm advising all of my friends to rent rather than own.

Oh yeah, we couldn't even get into our property at Mission Hills this summer and had to stay at the hotel side while folks on Expedia stayed at the Villas. Talk about injustice. Can't get in but get stuck with the fee hikes. What gives?

 

[Ken555]

Oh yeah, we couldn't even get into our property at Mission Hills this summer and had to stay at the hotel side while folks on Expedia stayed at the Villas. Talk about injustice. Can't get in but get stuck with the fee hikes. What gives?

Err... not to change the topic further, but this type of post deserves a response. Summer weeks at WMH are the most available, as compared to any other time of year. If you don't reserve in advance, however, you may not get the week you want. When did you first call to make your reservation? 12 months out? 8 months out? or 3 months out? It makes a big difference...

As a point of comparison, II had (as they tend to have every year) many, many units at WMH available for getaway weeks during the summer for as little as $250 or so per week. They also have plenty of availability at the three Marriott timeshares in the Palm Springs area as well.

 

[RLOGO]

SVV Maintenance Fees

SVV Bella section 2BR LO

Maintenance Fees $1321.01
Tax $ 212.99
Membership Fee $ 109.00
ARDA ROC PAC $ 5.00
Subtotal $1648.00
TOTAL $ OUCH

 

[Joshadelic]

SVV Bella section 2BR LO

Maintenance Fees $1321.01
Tax $ 212.99
Membership Fee $ 109.00
ARDA ROC PAC $ 5.00
Subtotal $1648.00
TOTAL $ OUCH

Yeah...that's what I thought. I own the same type unit. Last year it was $1300.71. That's a 26.7% increase!

 

[BluEyezNSC]

Sheraton Steamboat Springs 2010

Sheraton Steamboat Springs Villas EOY(odd) dedicated 2BR

2010 Maintenance Fee(s) $ 669.37
Tax - If Applicable $ 45.56
Current Year Charges $ 714.93

2009 was as follows:
Maintenance Fee(s) $ 662.89
Tax - If Applicable $ 63.53
Current Year Charges $ 726.42

As you can see, there was a very tiny increase in maintanence fees from 2009, but also a decrease in real estate taxes, so I am actually out of pocket less than last year.

I'm not sure why fees didn't go up (maybe because they are still actively selling?) but I am very grateful because (as previously mentioned) the fees for SBP that I bought resale this year went up more than 20%. OUCH!

 

[RLOGO]

Yeah...that's what I thought. I own the same type unit. Last year it was $1300.71. That's a 26.7% increase!

Although I have had many great exchanges through SVN I just can’t see paying $1650 in fees for Florida. No sign that the increase is temporary as Starwood’s projected fees for next year are the same.

 

[K2Quick]

SVV Bella section 2BR LO

Maintenance Fees $1321.01
Tax $ 212.99
Membership Fee $ 109.00
ARDA ROC PAC $ 5.00
Subtotal $1648.00
TOTAL $ OUCH

Ouch! Isn't that what WKORV was not too long ago?

 

[RLOGO]

Ouch! Isn't that what WKORV was not too long ago?

There is no logic to this. Florida vs. Maui are at opposite ends when it comes to the cost of living.

 

[LisaRex]

SVV Bella section 2BR LO

Maintenance Fees $1321.01
Tax $ 212.99
Membership Fee $ 109.00
ARDA ROC PAC $ 5.00
Subtotal $1648.00
TOTAL $ OUCH

Wow. Just wow. Does that include a special assessment???

 

[RLOGO]

Wow. Just wow. Does that include a special assessment???

There is no special assessment listed in my statement.

The exact statement reads like this:

""Operating Assessment $1146.31
Replacement Reserve $174.70
Estimated Real estate Tax $ 212.99
Membership Fee $ 109.00
ARDA ROC PAC $ 5.00
Subtotal $1648.00 (Payable in U.S. Dollars only)
TOTAL $ ha ha""


It's just outrageous.

 

[LisaRex]

It's just outrageous.

You say "ha ha" but I know from personal experience that it isn't the least bit funny.

SVO is a sinking ship, people. The handwriting is on the wall. They are soaking whatever they can out of us suckers, er, owners before it either goes belly up or is sold. They must know that these fees are going to force more people to just throw up their hands and walk away. And if they don't, then they are stupid in addition to being crooks.

 

[RLOGO]

You say "ha ha" but I know from personal experience that it isn't the least bit funny.

SVO is a sinking ship, people. The handwriting is on the wall. They are soaking whatever they can out of us suckers, er, owners before it either goes belly up or is sold. They must know that these fees are going to force more people to just throw up their hands and walk away. And if they don't, then they are stupid in addition to being crooks.

I was just pointing out how Starwood has pulled a horrible joke on us. I am not happy with this. I took a 20% cut in pay last year. An increase like this it’s just another hit.

 

[pharmgirl]

I would be happy if SVO was bought out by Marriott

 

[Ken555]

I would be happy if SVO was bought out by Marriott

Or Hyatt. Or Hilton. Or... practically anyone!

 

[tomandrobin]

Or Hyatt. Or Hilton. Or... practically anyone!

Be careful of what you wish for!

 

[thinze3]

There is no special assessment listed in my statement.

The exact statement reads like this:

""Operating Assessment $1146.31 $1164.14
Replacement Reserve $174.70 $143.46
Estimated Real estate Tax $ 212.99 $166.06
Membership Fee $ 109.00 N/A
ARDA ROC PAC $ 5.00 N/A
Subtotal $1648.00 (Payable in U.S. Dollars only)
TOTAL $ ha ha""


It's just outrageous.

OMG. That is more than Marriott Waiohai in Hawaii (see above)- even after backing out the membership fee. Something about these numbers smells fishy, very fishy.

 

[LisaRex]

OMG. That is more than Marriott Waiohai in Hawaii (see above)- even after backing out the membership fee. Something about these numbers smells fishy, very fishy.

Terry, meet the big, rotten, stinking fish

 

[Ken555]

Be careful of what you wish for!

Well, yeah. I don't think I really need to qualify my hopes of a theoretical new management company. Obviously, they need to be better than what we've got now.

 

[RLOGO]

This ebay auction for a SVV 2BR LO plat has no bids to date.

http://cgi.ebay.com/95K-STAROPTIONS...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item19b7c58e8b

It lists the maintenance fees correctly at $1643

 

[thinze3]

This ebay auction for a SVV 2BR LO plat has no bids to date.

http://cgi.ebay.com/95K-STAROPTIONS...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item19b7c58e8b

It lists the maintenance fees correctly at $1643

That is because with those MF's these units are virtually worthless now. Starwood has basically destroyed tens of millions of dollars (or more) of their timeshare owners' equity. IMHO this is still the beginning as some people are still buying because they know what last year's resale prices were for some of these timeshares, and they now think they are getting a bargain.

Prices don't go to zero instantaneously. Though you may sometimes see a freefall, in general, prices work their way down. They won't completely settle at their bottoms until after a few months have passed and all of this (policy changes and MF's) sinks in.

Those resorts that have controlled their fees and offer good value, like SDO, may actually come bouncing back a bit.

 

[DanCali]

That is because with those MF's these units are virtually worthless now. Starwood has basically destroyed tens of millions of dollars (or more) of their timeshare owners' equity. IMHO this is still the beginning as some people are still buying because they know what last year's resale prices were for some of these timeshares, and they now think they are getting a bargain.

Prices don't go to zero instantaneously. Though you may sometimes see a freefall, in general, prices work their way down. They won't completely settle at their bottoms until after a few months have passed and all of this (policy changes and MF's) sinks in.

Those resorts that have controlled their fees and offer good value, like SDO, may actually come bouncing back a bit.

I think "worthless" may be a rush to judgment here. A 67K SO unit used to sell for $1000-$1500 and is still in that range (although listed with old fees)

IMO the effect of the fees goes both ways with these type of units. Obviously the higher fees make the units less valuable on one hand, but on the other hand the SOs still give you the option to exchange to places with $2500+ MFs, like WKORV, HRA, and WSJ (however unikely the exchanges to the latter two). The fact that MFs at the "exotic" places went up by a lot, makes SVV and WKV more valuable (all other things equal). The former effect is likely to outweigh the latter but who knows...? I think the jury is still out until we have more evidence and this auction is probably not representative.

The unit in question is a 95K SO unit which was selling until recently on eBay for $5600-$6200. I think this particular one is mislisted because it doesn't have the words "Sheraton" or "Vistana" in the title and won't show up in a related search. Buying for $4000 could yet prove to be a "steal" (meaning other units may still sell for significantly more).

RLOGO - how did you find this one?

 

[RLOGO]

RLGO - how did you find this one?

I did an eBay search for "DISNEY" on timeshares for sale.

Although this auction is not over yet, I paid triple this a few years ago.
I do agree with you that the exchanges into SVN are a benefit even though it is almost always challenging to get a reservation. I have had good exchanges the past few years, otherwise I would consider this a terrible timeshare to own because of these exorbitant maintenance fees.