[2009] Westin Kaanapali Maintenance Fee complaints -- see here [+contact info.]

[DavidnRobin]

I am certainly aware of the USVI tax situation - and amazed that the USVI Gov't can even function w/o these taxes. Luckily I was on the ball enough to have the taxes accounted for our last purchase there (I had owners compensate me for the back taxes due - 3 years worth), and I remind all that listen to take these taxes into account. I dread the day these taxes become due - I owe ~$2400 as it stands now.

 

[EGSchwartz]

I think that our only recourse may be to file a class-action lawsuit against Starwood. I agree that there were misrepresentations made by the Sales Staff selling the Westin Maui timeshares. In addition the double digit increases in the MFs represents a material change in the contracts that we signed. A number of people that bought into the timeshares did not pay the full cost up front and financed their purchase via Starwood or another financial entity. According to a response that I got back to my complaints about the MF increase, the person indicated that several owners have defaulted on these loans and obviously are not paying the MFs.

Along with Maui Counties' increase of the real estate taxes, the maintenance burden is now spread among fewer owners. In my opinion in order to stand up against SVO, we need a collective voice not singular voices because otherwise, all we get in response is horse manure. The single most important topic at the next HOA meeting needs to be about MFs. They need to give us a five or even seven year plan for estimates of MF increases with their objective to keep the increases in line with inflation or cost of living increases. As stated above, all expenditures should be questioned and validated as reasonable.

A class action lawsuit should be considered as an option, unless we get assurances that the MFs will be kept under control. Somebody above mentioned about not being able to get a week in St. John's. We tried getting a week in Palm Springs for Thanksgiving week and were turned down, but there were several Villas available if you wanted to book and pay for the week. BTW, I requested the week with plenty of advance notice. In my opinion, that is another misrepresentation of what SVO told us buyers.

Hopefully, we can get more traction and action on this in 2010. A good first step would be to get an organized petition and letter to SVO and the HOA from as many owners as we can to sign it and send to them. There is anyone with organizing experience and setting up a electronic petition online?

If anyone gets a class-action suit going, letter writing campaign (I've done mine), or online petition, count me in. I am sick of this crap with these increases.

If this were a real for profit company, versus one in which SVO can keep coming back to the owners for more money, the Rivera, Lundberg, the management team, and others would have been fired already.

 

[LisaRex]

If anyone gets a class-action suit going, letter writing campaign (I've done mine), or online petition, count me in. I am sick of this crap with these increases.

If this were a real for profit company, versus one in which SVO can keep coming back to the owners for more money, the Rivera, Lundberg, the management team, and others would have been fired already.

I agree 100%. We're being taken for a ride and we're not enjoying it.

Welcome to TUG. The more people we can unite, the more power we'll have.

 

[wannagotoo]

I wrote the County of Maui, Real Property Tax Division. Information from LA Times 1/2/10:
-number of visitors in Nov fell 17% from 2007 and total spending decreased 1.3 billion for the first 11 months of '09 from same period in '08
-Occupancy on the big island was at 40%
-Estimate $1 billion drop in hotel revenue across state, etc.

The point of my letters was: For the tourists that are left, the "tax restructuring" on Maui will make it the least desireable island as lodging will become more expensive. If they want to compete for what is left of the tourist dollar, they need to reconsider the tax increase.

This is just one small piece of the problem. Starwood is responsible for the rest.

 

[clsmit]

Another article on Maui Time Share taxes

Nevermind -- it's posted on the other timeshare thread by nodge. His Starwood Google Alert is faster than mine.

 

[schesman]

Thanks for hosting this thread

Like most everyone else, I feel the salesman who sold me my properties criminally mislead me. The sales pitch focused on how the economics of the deal made sense - that it would cost much more to get a comparable hotel room. Even forgetting my initial expense, it is no longer true that the timeshare is a better deal than a hotel and it was never disclosed (other than perhaps in fine print?) that maintenance fees could increase unchecked to the point where the model no longer worked.

The sales pitch also focused on how oceanfront land was extremely scarce in Maui and there could be no more developments, preserving our property value. He even pointed to the empty lot next door as an example of land that Maui was not going to allow to be developed. Well, since I bought phase I they expanded into that lot next door (phase II) and now plan for phase III.

They did oversell the opportunities to travel to other SVO properties. In reality it is virtually impossible - especially at St. Johns. The fact that St. Johns is even listed in their literature should be illegal misrepresentation.

I am trying to decide if I want to walk away and deal with the credit ramifications or continue down this path of unrestricted annual MF increases. If anyone ever comes up with an idea on how to proceed please post it.

 

[DeniseM]

Hi schesman and welcome to TUG!

If you decide to get rid of your timeshare, you can sell it or give it away, and avoid the credit ding. You won't get anywhere near what you paid, but you can certainly get something out of it, and avoid damaging your credit.

 

[DavidnRobin]

In then contract you signed there is a clause that anything a salesperson stated to you verbally is not valid unless specifically contained in the contract. (aka the 'nodge' clause)
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=305445&postcount=56
{sorry nodge - i mistakenly thought this came from negma - and decided to find the specific post...}


Instead of walking away - unite with other Owners to fight the lack of transparency by the WKORV HOA BOD, and SVO questionable practices of grabbing money from Owners instead of putting back into the HOA.

The fight is only beginning - you would be amazed on how many Owners have finally/recently found TUG (lurking and directly) due to the escalating increase in MFs.

Tell all who will listen and join the ranks of Owners who are motivated to do something... it is up to us and no one else. The momentum is building...

 

[DanCali]

... and if you do choose to part ways with your timeshare, you can still get quite a bit for a Westin Maui timeshare, even at this level of MFs. Here are a couple of eBay auctions that ended very recently:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270508230707
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150404897047

And this one ends later today...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120518657901

You don't have to literally "walk away" and suffer the credit consequences associated with that.

 

[BurnedBySVO]

Do You Want to Purchase My Unit(s)

Hi schesman and welcome to TUG!

If you decide to get rid of your timeshare, you can sell it or give it away, and avoid the credit ding. You won't get anywhere near what you paid, but you can certainly get something out of it, and avoid damaging your credit.

Denise -
I have been trying to sell my timeshare units at the Westin Ka'anapali Resort Villas for nearly a year, and have placed ads on several websites. I have not takers. Are you aware of a place where buyers are actually interested in acquiring timeshares. If so, please let me know. If not, I may have an out that may be of interest to the group.

 

[DeniseM]

Denise -
I have been trying to sell my timeshare units at the Westin Ka'anapali Resort Villas for nearly a year, and have placed ads on several websites. I have not takers. Are you aware of a place where buyers are actually interested in acquiring timeshares. If so, please let me know. If not, I may have an out that may be of interest to the group.

Hi and welcome to TUG!

You can sell it, but you will need to lower your price to about 40% of original retail - or less - that's where the market is today.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Denise -
I have been trying to sell my timeshare units at the Westin Ka'anapali Resort Villas for nearly a year, and have placed ads on several websites. I have not takers. Are you aware of a place where buyers are actually interested in acquiring timeshares. If so, please let me know. If not, I may have an out that may be of interest to the group.

Check out the thread on eBay sales - that will give you a sense of what the bottom price is. However, based on your last sentence and title of your post - I would caution you about trying this 'out' with educated Tuggers (not to mention TUG's policy for solicitation).

 

[Ågent99]

Yes, if MFs continue to increase, some of us will have little recourse but to give away (i.e. sell at a huge discount) our TS. Starwood must know that this is a HORRIBLE long-term plan and that they will NOT attract new (suckers) clients....

 

[LisaRex]

You can sell it, but you will need to lower your price to about 40% of original retail - or less - that's where the market is today.

I think that's optimistic. From what I've been seeing, prices are far less than that. I bought my OF unit for $52 when they were selling them for $80k. I'd be very lucky to get $25k now.

 

[naka4]

Owner List - Law Suit

We have been owners at Westin Kaanapali since the beginning and based on our enjoyment of our time in Hawaii purchased a condo pre construction at Honua Kai (the large twin towers just up the road next to WEstins phase 3 location). The plan was to sell the weeks at Westin when we closed on the new condo, but of course now you really can't unload them at any price given the outrageous carrying costs, and in fact have been working to try and release our interest in the Honua Kai condo presale. In looking at that situation we learned that a number of buyers (about 50) were successful in a class action suit against the developer (Intrawest) at Honua Kai based on various fraudulent claims in their initial offering. The lawyer that represented them is Richard Rost of Wailuku. Has anyone contacted him, or another attorney to see if there is basis for a class action suit against Westin? A letter writing campaign isn't going to cut it with Starwood or the HOA Board, the only thing that is going to get their attention is a suit they have to respond to in court. I'm willing to take this on but wanted to see if others have explored this first.

I totally agree with you! We are ready to get involved as well. I know some of the St. Johns owner have started an owner list etc. We need to unite and not sit still for this!

 

[RThompson]

Maint. Fees Westin Kaanapali

I have read many of the post on the site complaining about the high fees, but have not seen anything that compares the fees at similar programs like the Marriott in Maui for example. I happened to be passing by a Time Share resale office here in Maui a few days back and they had a listing of units available and the fees for each one. The Marroitt fees for a comparable Westin unit looked to be around $1600, not the $2348 that we pay. I have seen lots of post saying this cost is too high or that cost is too high, but if we don't compare the figures to something real, they these are just hollow comments. Certainly looking at that list, if I was a time share buyer, why would I want to pay such high fees for a Westin property when I could get the same deal from Marriott for so much less. I think that is the area we should be focusing on - the fees charged by other competitiveproperties......

A very disappointed owner,
Richard

 

[Quick Carl]

Could it be a matter of how many people are paying the fees?

Excuse me for not reading the whole thread before posting this because it is a lot to read and I need to get to bed. This can be deleted if it is erroneous.
I think what might be happening here is that because of the bad economic times, is that there is now a smaller group of time share owners paying the same if not higher operating budget. So the net result is that every remaining owner must now pay a higher share.
There undoubtedly have been a lot of defaults in addition to not all of the rooms ever being sold. If Starwood held the paper on many of these and they defaulted, then who owns them or is holding them now? Were they immediately resold so new owners can pay their fees or is starwood sitting on them? So who is paying the maintenance fees and taxes on them now? Is Starwood paying or are as I have a hunch, the remaining owners now having to foot the bill for them. How else can they now rent rooms for less than what it costs us for our maintenance fees alone. How can that be? To me it would seems like those rooms are being rented out and that money is being pocketed without proper reimbursement to those who are being saddled with all of the operating expenses. I would imagine Starwood is using these on the spot room rentals to cover the bad paper they lent out, but if they are using maids and grounds keepers and taxes in these rooms then they need to pay for that. If Starwood wrote bad paper then they have to cover it, not us the ones who paid for our units.

 

[LisaRex]

I think what might be happening here is that because of the bad economic times, is that there is now a smaller group of time share owners paying the same if not higher operating budget. So the net result is that every remaining owner must now pay a higher share.

This is true and was explained in our MF letter when they increased our MFs from $1900 to $2600. I believe in 2010 we're paying $250-300 at WKORV for delinquencies.

There undoubtedly have been a lot of defaults in addition to not all of the rooms ever being sold. If Starwood held the paper on many of these and they defaulted, then who owns them or is holding them now?

By "held the paper" do you mean who wrote the loan? If so, then it depended on how the owner paid for their TSs. Some paid cash out of their savings; some opened up HELOCs; some put it on their credit cards; some financed them through Starwood. If you're speaking only about the last group, then Starwood owned the loan though it may been then sold off. In any event, this is one of the "conflict of interest" areas because part of the reason that they are stalling on foreclosures may well be because they don't want to write off that note.

Were they immediately resold so new owners can pay their fees or is starwood sitting on them?

Starwood has yet to foreclose on any of these units, to the best of my knowledge. However, they have said that they will BEGIN foreclosing "soon." And when they DO foreclose, they have indicated that they will auction them off at a price that includes past due MFs so that the HOA will be made whole. We shall see.

So who is paying the maintenance fees and taxes on them now? Is Starwood paying or are as I have a hunch, the remaining owners now having to foot the bill for them.

Remaining owners are being forced to foot the delinquencies.

How else can they now rent rooms for less than what it costs us for our maintenance fees alone. How can that be? To me it would seems like those rooms are being rented out and that money is being pocketed without proper reimbursement to those who are being saddled with all of the operating expenses.

Bingo! They get all the upside and we get all the downside. Great contract, no?

I would imagine Starwood is using these on the spot room rentals to cover the bad paper they lent out, but if they are using maids and grounds keepers and taxes in these rooms then they need to pay for that. If Starwood wrote bad paper then they have to cover it, not us the ones who paid for our units.

It is written in the Owner's Agreement that any unbooked inventory becomes Starwood's property to dispose of as they wish at 90 days out. They pay the HOA nothing for this except perhaps a "housekeeping fee" and even then they only pay it if they deem that extra help was needed to cover the rentals. Since the housekeepers are undoubtedly paid hourly, and renters are entitled to daily maid service, you'd think the HOA would be getting a housekeeping fee reimbursement from every rental. You'd think.

 

[gregb]

I think it is important to distinguish between delinquencies on MF to the HOA and delinquencies on a purchase loan to Starwood.

If an owner financed a unit purchase with a loan from Starwood and they are now delinquent on the loan, it is up to Starwood to decide when to foreclose on the loan. But this has no direct impact on the HOA maintenance fees.

Now it is likely that an owner that is delinquent on their loan is also delinquent on their MF, (but that is not a given). So if they are delinquent on their MF, then the HOA has the right to start foreclosure on the unit, independent of any loan that Starwood may have outstanding on the unit.

I expect that the Starwood loan would be a first mortgage and I don't know where the MF lien would fall, either before the first mortgage, or subordinate to the first mortgage.

If Starwood were to foreclose on a purchase loan, then Starwood would become the owner of record, and responsible for any past due MFs, if any. If the HOA does the foreclosure, then we all become owners of the unit, and we all responsible for the MFs.

So there is a big difference between who starts a foreclosure on a unit, the HOA or Starwood.

Greg

 

[gregb]

It is written in the Owner's Agreement that any unbooked inventory becomes Starwood's property to dispose of as they wish at 90 days out. They pay the HOA nothing for this except perhaps a "housekeeping fee" and even then they only pay it if they deem that extra help was needed to cover the rentals. Since the housekeepers are undoubtedly paid hourly, and renters are entitled to daily maid service, you'd think the HOA would be getting a housekeeping fee reimbursement from every rental. You'd think.

Two items I want to address here.

First, LisaRex assumes that the HOA is responsible for the cleaning fees for the room. I am not sure where this idea comes from. If I ask Starwood to rent out my unit (not a good deal, I know), they do not charge me a cleaning fee. Rather, they pay the cleaning fee from the 50% of the rental income that they keep. I believe this is the same for the HOA.

Second, you have to remember that hotel rooms are like airplane seats. Once the plane has taken off, you can no longer sell the seat and any revenue from that seat is lost. I believe the 90 day (or whatever it is) time frame that Starwood has to rent units is to allow time for them to market and rent units so that they do not sit vacant.

Greg

 

[DanCali]

Second, you have to remember that hotel rooms are like airplane seats. Once the plane has taken off, you can no longer sell the seat and any revenue from that seat is lost. I believe the 90 day (or whatever it is) time frame that Starwood has to rent units is to allow time for them to market and rent units so that they do not sit vacant.

But Starwood doesn't own the place and they don't give the rental income to the HOA...

90 days is also the window where (i) owners can book short stays and (ii) owners can borrow SOs from the following year to book stays in current year. Wouldn't it be better to see how this plays out? If Starwood grabs the best inventory at 90 days out that doesn't help those owners.

 

[jarta]

"I believe the 90 day (or whatever it is) time frame that Starwood has to rent units is to allow time for them to market and rent units so that they do not sit vacant."

I think since the debate centers around the provisions of the "90 day rule" and how it works, it would be useful if someone posted the rule or a link to where it is earlier posted on TUG. I do not remember anyone posting the provisions in the last few years. Thanks in advance to whoever comes up with the rule.

Perhaps the provision could then be placed in one of the Starwood stickys so that it could be easily referred to. ... eom

 

[Fredm]

I think that's optimistic. From what I've been seeing, prices are far less than that. I bought my OF unit for $52 when they were selling them for $80k. I'd be very lucky to get $25k now.

Yep. 25k is about right.

 

[LisaRex]

I think since the debate centers around the provisions of the "90 day rule" and how it works, it would be useful if someone posted the rule or a link to where it is earlier posted on TUG. I do not remember anyone posting the provisions in the last few years. Thanks in advance to whoever comes up with the rule.

You're killing me! (furiously paging through the OA).

 

[jarta]

Lisa, ... I'm not implying there is no provision for 90 day rentals. I'm more interested in what it says.

No hurry is necessary. Enjoy your Sunday morning coffee. lol! ... eom