[2009] Westin Kaanapali Maintenance Fee complaints -- see here [+contact info.]

[LisaRex]

Ginja, I think a lot of us feel like we've been taken by Starwood. I can only tell you this: When people are backed into a corner, they have two responses: flee or fight. Because Starwood, Maui County, and the economy have combined to depreciate the value of our Maui timeshare to the point where we couldn't hope to recover even close to our purchase price, let alone find another sucker willing to take on these exorbitant MFs, then we couldn't even flee if we wanted to. That leaves us one option: to fight.

The angrier people get, the more they will be willing to put their money where their mouth is and write letters of complaint and contact the Attorney Generals of their state.

Courts hate one-side agreements. By taking control of the HOA they have rendered the homeowners powerless. We can't even vote our HOA board out of office because Starwood handpicks who sits on the board.

I appreciate the letters you have sent. If more people would be motivated to do so, then what little power we have would be magnified. I work for a Fortune 50 company. Do not underestimate the power of the consumer.

 

[Bobby_Fletcher]

I appreciate the letters you have sent. If more people would be motivated to do so, then what little power we have would be magnified. I work for a Fortune 50 company. Do not underestimate the power of the consumer.

Thanks Lisa. I'm doing okay but the increase in dues have started to make SVO not worth it.

Please let us know what we need to do. People can you post sample letters?

 

[DeniseM]

Thanks Lisa. I'm doing okay but the increase in dues have started to make SVO not worth it.

Please let us know what we need to do. People can you post sample letters?

Hi and welcome to TUG - Tugger gmarine (George) is spearheading the letter writing campaign, and you can send a private message to him for all the details.

 

[ciscogizmo1]

I got a reply from Starwood regarding an e-mail address. They replied to me on 12/3... I didn't see it as we had a death in the family so, I hadn't gone back to mystarcentral account since I requested the info.

e-mail associationmgmt@starwoodvo.com

 

[Phillydan]

I think that our only recourse may be to file a class-action lawsuit against Starwood. I agree that there were misrepresentations made by the Sales Staff selling the Westin Maui timeshares. In addition the double digit increases in the MFs represents a material change in the contracts that we signed. A number of people that bought into the timeshares did not pay the full cost up front and financed their purchase via Starwood or another financial entity. According to a response that I got back to my complaints about the MF increase, the person indicated that several owners have defaulted on these loans and obviously are not paying the MFs.

Along with Maui Counties' increase of the real estate taxes, the maintenance burden is now spread among fewer owners. In my opinion in order to stand up against SVO, we need a collective voice not singular voices because otherwise, all we get in response is horse manure. The single most important topic at the next HOA meeting needs to be about MFs. They need to give us a five or even seven year plan for estimates of MF increases with their objective to keep the increases in line with inflation or cost of living increases. As stated above, all expenditures should be questioned and validated as reasonable.

A class action lawsuit should be considered as an option, unless we get assurances that the MFs will be kept under control. Somebody above mentioned about not being able to get a week in St. John's. We tried getting a week in Palm Springs for Thanksgiving week and were turned down, but there were several Villas available if you wanted to book and pay for the week. BTW, I requested the week with plenty of advance notice. In my opinion, that is another misrepresentation of what SVO told us buyers.

Hopefully, we can get more traction and action on this in 2010. A good first step would be to get an organized petition and letter to SVO and the HOA from as many owners as we can to sign it and send to them. There is anyone with organizing experience and setting up a electronic petition online?

 

[orimv]

Another unhappy owner checking in...

 

[LisaRex]

Welcome to Tug, Orimv and PhillyDan. If you haven't already, I strongly urge you to write a letter of complaint to Starwood. Let them know that we're not going to just sit quiety and allow them to raise our MFs, while destroying the equity in the villas that we paid top dollar for. Silent acceptance is the worst possible message to send them as I really do believe that they will continue along this path until it we push back. Now is the time to push back.

While you're at it, also write Maui county and remind them that we are middle class families here, just like them. We bought with good intentions -- to visit Maui once a year and then to go home. Why they feel the need to punish us for buying a timeshare is beyond my comprehension. If they intended to punish Starwood, let them know that Starwood deflected the hit and aimed it squarely at the owners.

Once again, thanks for coming on board. The more united we stand, the more power we wield.

 

[Fredm]

..write Maui county and remind them that we are middle class families here, just like them. We bought with good intentions -- to visit Maui once a year and then to go home. Why they feel the need to punish us for buying a timeshare is beyond my comprehension. If they intended to punish Starwood, let them know that Starwood deflected the hit and aimed it squarely at the owners.

Lisa, Maui County has perpetrated the the most outrageous abuse of taxing authority I have ever seen.
Its elected officials are gutless and shameless.

Hawaii's tourist based economy is on the ropes.
Schools have canceled 17 Friday sessions for lack of funding.
Yet, the tax assessor proudly boasts that resident tax rates remain unchanged. Tax collections actually increased by 2%. The entire shortfall and then some has been absorbed by increases in timeshare tax assessments.

The State of Hawaii and Maui County could care less about what a timeshare owner has to say. They laid the tax on timeshare owners precisely because they do not vote in the jurisdiction.

As for punishing Starwood, where did you get that?

 

[LisaRex]

As for punishing Starwood, where did you get that?

It is pure speculation on my part, but I believe that Maui County is trying to bully Starwood from pursuing phase 3 (aka WKORV-NN) by steeply increasing the property taxes for timeshares. And, of course, there's nothing to stop them from doubling it again, except their consciences, which is why I still think letters are essential. It's easy to pass taxes against faceless, nameless people. Not so easy when you hear from them personally.

If that doesn't work, they'll certainly start to care if/when the TSs go belly up and the tourism dollars dry up. IIRC, the #1 delinquent property tax payer this year was the group that owns the former Embassy Suites (Kaanapali Beach Club?). Not a good sign.

 

[Fredm]

It is pure speculation on my part, but I believe that Maui County is trying to bully Starwood from pursuing phase 3 (aka WKORV-NN) by steeply increasing the property taxes for timeshares. And, of course, there's nothing to stop them from doubling it again, except their consciences, which is why I still think letters are essential. It's easy to pass taxes against faceless, nameless people. Not so easy when you hear from them personally.

If that doesn't work, they'll certainly start to care if/when the TSs go belly up and the tourism dollars dry up. IIRC, the #1 delinquent property tax payer this year was the group that owns the former Embassy Suites (Kaanapali Beach Club?). Not a good sign.

Its easy to tax folks who cannot vote. Nameless, faceless, or otherwise.

As for tax delinquencies, they will be paid with penalties sooner or later.

Maui did not impose this tax island-wide to stop NN. Maui approved the project. It's a separate issue having to do with the process itself. They would love to have the tax base it will bring.

The real problem is longer term for Hawaii, and timeshare owners.
The more the traveling public rejects Hawaii, the less revenue the state and county governments will receive.
So, they will do more of what they have already done. Tax those who do not vote. Timeshare owners and hotel transients. The worse the Hawaii economy becomes, the more burden on those who have no alternative but to pay.

Sure, an owner can sell. But the buyer is the new payee. What suffers is the equity in the timeshare. Maui could care less. Just so long as resident property taxes are subsidized to the point of absurdity.

This has nothing to do with Starwood.

 

[johntb]

We have been owners at Westin Kaanapali since the beginning and based on our enjoyment of our time in Hawaii purchased a condo pre construction at Honua Kai (the large twin towers just up the road next to WEstins phase 3 location). The plan was to sell the weeks at Westin when we closed on the new condo, but of course now you really can't unload them at any price given the outrageous carrying costs, and in fact have been working to try and release our interest in the Honua Kai condo presale. In looking at that situation we learned that a number of buyers (about 50) were successful in a class action suit against the developer (Intrawest) at Honua Kai based on various fraudulent claims in their initial offering. The lawyer that represented them is Richard Rost of Wailuku. Has anyone contacted him, or another attorney to see if there is basis for a class action suit against Westin? A letter writing campaign isn't going to cut it with Starwood or the HOA Board, the only thing that is going to get their attention is a suit they have to respond to in court. I'm willing to take this on but wanted to see if others have explored this first.

 

[DeniseM]

Hi PhillyDan, orimv, and John and welcome to TUG!

I also bought pre-construction at WKORV. Various owners have send out feelers about a class action suite, but at this point, we don't have a definite plan, that I am aware of. Many of us are frustrated with the taxes, maintenance fees, and management in general.

 

[pointsjunkie]

Hi PhillyDan, orimv, and John and welcome to TUG!

I also bought pre-construction at WKORV. Various owners have send out feelers about a class action suite, but at this point, we don't have a definite plan, that I am aware of. Many of us are frustrated with the taxes, maintenance fees, and management in general.

thought i was the only one up at this hour.

happy new year denise and thanks for all that you do here on TUG>

barbra

 

[DeniseM]

HI Barbra and Happy New Year to you, too! I'm on the West Coast so it was only 11:10 when I posted (my time.)

 

[Sherlock]

Very Upset

We bought our WKORVN pre-construction. When we arrived at the Villas North for our first visit we were sorely disappointed with the "Ocean Front" room that we paid for, that was actually 7 units back from the front of the ocean. We were showed the ocean front rooms at the Villas South and told we could expect the same views, finishes, etc. The views were grossly different and the finishes, too were a little lower-end then the South units. Needless to say this was the first of our disappointment with Starwood, Westin and this whole debacle of a group we have mistakenly gotten ourselves involved with. We are on board with a class action suit for the MF's being increased sooooo much that we cannot even afford to get to Hawaii. We own two units and are very close to just bailing on the whole thing. Please let us know if a class suit will be pursued. I can spearhead this suit if someone has not taken this action. I can also play a supporting role. Is there anyway to get a list of owners? I know at least 5 friend/associates of mine, but there must be thousands more......I want what I was sold or I want out!

 

[Lawlar]

OMG!!!

We came so very close to buying at this resort. At the last minute we decided to walk over to Marriott and buy there. But I suspect Marriott will soon catch up to Westin in the fees they charge us.

An interesting exercise is to multiply the number of units in your complex by 50 weeks by the MF. [Unit # X 50 X MF = Rediculous] Then you get a good idea of how outrageous the fees are. [I would do the math for you but I don't know how many units exist in your complex.]

I did the math last year for MOC and the result was you could use the MFs to rebuild the entire complex every two years or so.

I was on the board of a condo complex in Los Angeles for a few years. We charged each owner $225 a month for fees. [99 units] That included the maintenance of two pools, two jacuzzis, a recreation room, elaborate landscaping, ponds, streams and waterfalls (the complex was high-end), insurance, a reserve for future repairs (the roofs, common areas, painting, etc.) and whatever else was needed to keep the place in top shape.

The MOC fees for ONE WEEK almost equal what was charged for a very nice condo for ONE YEAR!!!.

I know that a hotel has additional expenses (including the inside of the units and a bigger staff) - but the fees are totally rediculous.

I was at Marriott Tahoe several weeks ago for $300 for the entire week (an II GetaWay) and I stayed at Desert Springs for about $500 for the week. That is substantially less than the yearly MFs charged by Marriott.

The whole concept is really upsetting.

 

[LisaRex]

An interesting exercise is to multiply the number of units in your complex by 50 weeks by the MF. [Unit # X 50 X MF = Rediculous]

Believe me, I've been there, done that. Our MFs, excluding property taxes are now $100k PER APARTMENT per year. That's the equivalent of a similar sized condo community charging over $8,000 per month to each owner in HOA fees. To anyone with a half a lick of sense, that is an obscene amount of money.

To add insult to injury, the horrific MFs have helped diminish what little equity we have left in our villas. With the highest MFs on the island, and a track record of double digit increases and record delinquencies, who in the world would buy there now? And yet Starwood is still trying to push Phase III off the ground.

Personally, I believe they are in their final stages of a desperate campaign to keep SVO afloat. With delinquencies rising rapidly and sales falling, Starwood has little incentive left to keep SVO on its books. It was great when it was the cash cow. They have to realize that they can only milk us owners for so much for so long before we all simply abandon the place.

Oh, it's a great time to be a Starwood sucker!

 

[thomasro3]

On the bright side this is not as bad as WSJ. On the negative side I have 4 2bdrm lockoff units here and one of them is a deluxe so I am really hurting on with the fees. Starwood did offer to let me break it up into 3 installment payments for with the last one due in April.

Seriously, I just spent 10k in maintenance fees for my SVO properties. I could think of many other ways that money coulda' shoulda' been spent. I'll sign whatever lets get this thing going.

Oh one more thing the rep did say that the association was disputing the fees and that next year they may be lower. (sounds like empty promises to me though).

-Thomas

 

[DeniseM]

On the bright side this is not as bad as WSJ. On the negative side I have 4 2bdrm lockoff units here and one of them is a deluxe so I am really hurting on with the fees. Starwood did offer to let me break it up into 3 installment payments for with the last one due in April.

You can make installment paments on your 2010 maintenance fees if you want to - you don't have to set it up with Starwood. Just divide your payment by 12 and make a payment every month at mystarcentral.com.

Oh one more thing the rep did say that the association was disputing the fees and that next year they may be lower. (sounds like empty promises to me though).

We don't know if this will happen, but it is true that the majority of this year's increase was taxes, and that it is being disputed with Maui County. If Starwood doesn't increase maintenance fees next year, and if they win the dispute, it is possible that maintenance fees could go down.

 

[Ken555]

You can make installment paments on your 2010 maintenance fees if you want to - you don't have to set it up with Starwood. Just divide your payment by 12 and make a payment every month at mystarcentral.com.

I didn't know this was an option. Is this available on every SVN MF bill?

I paid mine in full, but would much prefer a regular (and hopefully automatic) AMEX charge on a monthly basis for MF.

 

[DeniseM]

I didn't know this was an option. Is this available on every SVN MF bill?

I paid mine in full, but would much prefer a regular (and hopefully automatic) AMEX charge on a monthly basis for MF.

Yep - you can make payments on mystarcentral when ever it is convenient for you. I don't see a way to set up an automatic payment, though. You'd probably have to call SW about that.

 

[DavidnRobin]

On the bright side this is not as bad as WSJ. On the negative side I have 4 2bdrm lockoff units here and one of them is a deluxe so I am really hurting on with the fees. Starwood did offer to let me break it up into 3 installment payments for with the last one due in April.

Seriously, I just spent 10k in maintenance fees for my SVO properties. I could think of many other ways that money coulda' shoulda' been spent. I'll sign whatever lets get this thing going.

Oh one more thing the rep did say that the association was disputing the fees and that next year they may be lower. (sounds like empty promises to me though).

-Thomas

I do not think it is worse for WSJ - a big part of the MFs for WSJ is the 3 year special assessment (1 more year left) - w/o the SA - our MFs are around $2K (still too much...), but a WKORV Dlx has MFs of ~$2800.

The way I look at it (likely skewed) is the MFs for WKORV are in 3 buckets

1) The regular MFs for upkeep (too high and should be managed better and transparent, but what we signed up for...)

2) The increase due to deliquent owners - the most controversial since lack of transparency has no record on how those VOIs are being used and how that money comes back to the HOA (if at all...)

3) The increase in taxes - which we may (or may not) get back, but at least it is transparent

I worry most about #2 - since I believe adequate money/compenstation is not coming back to the HOA (if at all) for the deliquent VOIs and are being used by SVO, and the money is ending up in SVO's pocket (and not the HOA where it should be). IMO - THIS is where an Owner lawsuit is needed (at least to force transparancy and accountability of these monies).

 

[thomasro3]

I do not think it is worse for WSJ - a big part of the MFs for WSJ is the 3 year special assessment (1 more year left) - w/o the SA - our MFs are around $2K (still too much...), but a WKORV Dlx has MFs of ~$2800.....

Yes, I was lumping your "special" assessment along with the MFs.
RE: 1. I do agree with you there needs to be more transparency.
2. Those delinquent rentals should go back into our association pot.
3. Yup taxes and fees are what they are but tranparency would appreciated with regard to these as well.

Don't get me wrong.. I love vacationing to these resorts I'm headed to Princeville this Feb. and finally got WSJ for this april, I just HATE throwing money away or in this case watching someone else possibly squandering what I have worked so hard to earn.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Yes, I was lumping your "special" assessment along with the MFs.
RE: 1. I do agree with you there needs to be more transparency.
2. Those delinquent rentals should go back into our association pot.
3. Yup taxes and fees are what they are but tranparency would appreciated with regard to these as well.

Don't get me wrong.. I love vacationing to these resorts I'm headed to Princeville this Feb. and finally got WSJ for this april, I just HATE throwing money away or in this case watching someone else possibly squandering what I have worked so hard to earn.

The problem with #2 - is that no one knows (outside of SVO) - to my knowledge - what happens to these VOIs. I am not sure (in fact I doubt) that these monies goes back to the HOA - I think the money is being funneled back to SVO thru a variety of methods. I was dealing with this back in November before life went crazy for me - maybe now I will find some time. I was going back thru threads and it appears that no one still has an answer for what happens to these VOIs.

Hopefully - if we can get a Tugger on the HOA BOD - we can get a real answer.

 

[ocdb8r]

I do not think it is worse for WSJ - a big part of the MFs for WSJ is the 3 year special assessment (1 more year left) - w/o the SA - our MFs are around $2K (still too much...), but a WKORV Dlx has MFs of ~$2800.

The only thing you have to keep in mind is that the WSJ maint fees don't include the large tax bill likely to come due at some point in the near future. While there is a court case in the USVI that has seen some succes, at some point SOME sort of property tax is going to be levied and after not being paid for 3-4 years, it's not giong to be pretty.

The bottom line is that the fees being charged at MANY of the resorts are totally untenable in this economy. I have no idea HOW SVO can continue to sell weeks at some of these places. How does anyone justify $2800/week in addition to the huge initial outlay? The resorts are NOT that nice and the level of upkeep is nowhere near what it should be for what they are bringing in.