[2008] Why is Sheraton Mountain Vista so cheap?

[thinze3]

I am watching an eBay auction for a 2BR EOY Sheraton Mountain Vista unit. It has prime floating ski season usage. It appeasr to have the ability to lock-off into TWO 1BR units. Why is it so cheap?

What are the pros and cons of owning here? We own down the street at Christie Lodge and very much like the Beaver Creek/ Vail area.


Terry

 

[rickandcindy23]

The fees are high. They didn't used to be that high, but they are crazy high now. Short explanation, but that's the long and short of it.

 

[thinze3]

Sheraton Mountain Vista maintenance fees finally up on MyStarcentral.

2 bedroom lockoff went from 847.35 to 1050.17. (All numbers include taxes but exclude ARDA and SVN fees.)

The fees excluding taxes are 976.34 for 2008 versus 765.85 for 2007. That represents a 27% increase.

Based on this old post, the fees seem to be in line with most large developer name ski resorts. Marriotts range in price from $950 to $1,250/yr.

There are no SVN fees, as this is a voluntary resort, correct?

Terry

 

[djp]

Don't be fooled by the low bidding....two weeks ago what looks like the same week ended at $3700 only to not meet the reserve. I imagine the reserve on this biannual is around $4000, as the annual ski weeks normally go for around $10,000. It is likely that the bargain hunters who bid last time only to not meet the reserve, are sitting this one out, so if the seller has lowered the reserve, there could be a deal to be had. SMV is a nice resort, not ski in ski out, but other than that no complaints.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Based on this old post, the fees seem to be in line with most large developer name ski resorts. Marriotts range in price from $950 to $1,250/yr.

There are no SVN fees, as this is a voluntary resort, correct?

Terry

I don't pay high fees on anything but Hawaii. If you have a good week, you can trade into the ski resorts with a little planning. So I don't see any reason to buy something with fees that high. Makes it illogical to use as a trader.

Maybe SBP will go up that much sometime, but I sure hope not.

 

[myip]

The last one sold on Ebay was $5000 EOY. It still have over 1 day to go...
THe lockoff is actually 2 , 1 bedroom units The maintenance is not too bad if you look at lock off.. - approx $500 each side.

 

[thinze3]

I don't pay high fees on anything but Hawaii. If you have a good week, you can trade into the ski resorts with a little planning. So I don't see any reason to buy something with fees that high. Makes it illogical to use as a trader.

Maybe SBP will go up that much sometime, but I sure hope not.

I have been looking at SDO and SBP as a way to get into the Starwood system and gain that 3 day preference but can't see myself using those locations very often in the future. Also, I would like to have the ability to retro to the full 141,800 SO's in the future.

I think SBP is the one of a few exceptions in terms of MF's for the Starwood system outside of Orlando. Most have very high fees the best I can tell. Look at the MF's of Mission Hills or Kierland. Those are outrageous in comparison to Mountain Vista but offer the same rental income ($2,400) and SO's if part of SVN.

All in all, Sheraton Mountain Vista appears to be a fair deal for a "brand name" timeshare IMO.


Terry

.

 

[RLG]

IMountain Vista but offer the same rental income ($2,400)

I'd say the $2,400 figure is optimistic. [Out of compliance info. deleted.-DeniseM Moderator]

 

[thinze3]

I'd say the $2,400 figure is optimistic. I have President's Day week reserved at Mountain Vista am offering it for rent, including here on TUG.

My asking price is less than that. If you know how to get more please let me know.

I should have worded it differently. The ASKING prices for all three resorts is about the same. Redweek's average asking price for a 2BR winter week at Mountain Vista is $2,495 which is about $200 more than Mission Hills for the same weeks.


Terry

 

[Robert D]

Asking prices are irrelevant. RLG, how much have your rented your 2BR ski week for in the past? I've gotten $995 for a 1BR Eagle Point in Vail and $700 for a Falcon Point studio for a mid March spring break week, which I think is comparable in demand to President's week, but lower quality than SMV. I don't see a 2BR SMV going for over $2K but I might be wrong. My guess is more like $1,500 - $1,750 unless you have week 52. There seem to be a lot of SMV weeks available. I do think that the EOY week on Ebay will go a lot higher than where it's at now. Ebay auction prices are meaningless until the auction is over since most of the action happens in the last two minutes.

 

[thinze3]

... I do think that the EOY week on Ebay will go a lot higher than where it's at now. Ebay auction prices are meaningless until the auction is over since most of the action happens in the last two minutes.

Well, I'm currently high bidder, but of course the reserve has not been met. I will continue to watch it.


Terry

 

[jarta]

Why is it so cheap?

I do not own at Mountain Vista. But, I stayed at Mountain Vista about 2 months ago. Also, I do not ski so I am not an expert on ski resorts. (Since you are familiar with the Avon area, most of this post could be stuff you already know.)

First, Mountain Vista has no air-conditioning. This limits the desirability of the resort in the summer. Fans in the rooms worked OK when I was there in mid-September. In July or August, the rooms might not be comfortable.

Mountain Vista is furnished at the Sheraton, not Westin, level. The decorating is a little tired and the rooms are pretty gloomy. I expect that the level of the decorating will be taken care of by a special assessment. (BTW, I see no advantage in putting a whirlpool bathtub in the bedroom, rather than the bathroom. But, that's a personal preference.)

Compared to other Westin time share locations, my wife and I felt a little cramped. Storage (closet and drawer space) in the room was quite limited.

The new Westin resort and timeshares at Riverwalk in Avon is opening soon. It will have a gondola lift at it's door up the mountain directly to Batchelor's Gulch (not Beaver Creek). Mountain Vista is about 2-3 blocks away from the new lift. I have no idea if using that lift will be for free or for pay for Mountain Vista owners. Riverwalk is beautiful and posh. Mountain Vista is utilitarian, by comparison.

Staying in Avon is not as convenient as staying at Beaver Creek or Batchelor's Gulch. Avon is on the "flats" along the Interstate. Beaver Creek and Batchelor's Gulch are way up the mountain where the slopes are. Avon is a sleepy little town without much charm, IMO. Avon is definitely not Vail, but it's obviously trying to become Vail-like. Maybe it will succeed; maybe not. (BTW, Avon is financing the push to become another Vail partially through a real estate transfer tax. Since I am not a skier and not interested in buying in Colorado, I did not inquire about how that tax works.)

In the end, I must say the staff at Mountain Vista was extremely friendly, well-informed and helpful. My wife and I found the concierge to be helpful and had a good time there.

I don't know if the disadvantages of staying on the "flats' of Avon outweigh the advantages of staying further up the mountain at the two resorts or whether the new Westin is depressing prices at Mountain Vista as people who own at mountain Vista make an "upgrade" to Riverwalk. But if you want a "no frills" ski experience in the middle of a charmless town populated by banks, strip-like malls and adequate restaurants and want to buy at an older, "voluntary" Starwood resort because you will visit every year, Mountain Vista may be for you. For skiers, the great ski slopes that are nearby may trump everything else.

 

[Floridaski]

Avon - Vail transfer tax

Why the town of Avon would want the Vail resort real estate transfer tax makes no sense to me. The Vail resorts transfer tax is 2% of ANY real estate sale. The transfer tax is normally paid by the buyer, not sure why Avon would want that tax added to their real estate sales unless some of the money goes back to the town.

Avon is certainly not Vail, Beaver Creek, Breck or Keystone and I am not sure how they could change the town to fit into the niches that the other resorts have created.

I am not knocking Avon and we have stayed at the Mountain Vista twice without any major issues. Avon just would not be my first choice for a ski vacation. I think that a few people feel the same way and that is why you see Mountain Vista and other Avon timeshares selling for what appears to be a "deal"

Good luck and I would double check on the transfer tax - you really want to avoid that if possible. It is paid each time the property changes title. It is NOT a one time tax.

 

[SDKath]

Do you guys think SMV is going to have an assessment sometime soon? It sounds like it from your descriptions. KL

 

[thinze3]

Jarta,
Thanks. This is what I am looking for - informative feedback. I was not aware that SMV had no air conditioning. CL doesn't either, and it can get a bit uncomfortable on warm days. The good thing is you simply open the sliding door and things cool off quickly.

I have seen SMV, as the shuttle that stops at CL also stops near SMV. Yes, SMV is a little generic looking. It sounds as though the interiors are a bit like the Vistana Resort we stayed at in Orlando, nothing special, but still nice.

I believe I last saw SMV under constuction about 6 years ago. I sure hope they aren't do for a special assessment. If reserve fees have been assessed properly the HOA should have money to cover general upgrades.

Anyhow, I'm out. I am no longer high bidder.

Terry

 

[djp]

Alot of the resorts in the mountains lack air conditioning. I stayed at the Hyatt Mountain lodge at Beaver creek last summer and it had no air conditioning. The rooms at SMV can get a bit warm in the summer, they recently added portable air conditioners in the closets of each room that you can bring out if needed. Most times of year they would not be needed, it would be as simple as cracking a window. The furnishings, are not as nice as the westins, but definitely a step above the pre-renovation vistana units. I do not foresee a special assesment in the next few years, as things are in pretty good shape. For someone happy with skiing from Avon (which will only be getting better), who desires to gain starwood priority then SMV would be a good choice....especially if they had been happily staying at Christie Lodge....they will find SMV to be a huge upgrade. For someone that wants something nicer....the new Westin will fit that bill and only cost 5 x's as much.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Air conditioning in the mountains isn't at all necessary. We have stayed in the mountains, specifically Breckenridge and Winter Park, in July and it snowed a foot several different visits. I have also seen it close to 90 degrees in July, but it cools down to 50 at night, even when the temps are that hot in the day.

Okay, well snow and the 90's aren't the norms, but it sure swings from one extreme to the other like that during many summers. The nighttime lows in the summer are around 45 degrees, so air conditioning is all about opening the windows and letting the cold, crisp air in. I love the cool air up in them thar hills.

Going to Frisco this Sunday for a owners' meeting, and I am looking forward to seeing lots of snow.

 

[RLG]

Asking prices are irrelevant. RLG, how much have your rented your 2BR ski week for in the past?

Asking prices are very relevant if you're trying to point out that someone's estimate of market is too HIGH. The fact that the ASKING price of my UNRENTED unit is lower than the OP's estimated rental value is pretty clear evidence that his estimated value is too high. Suppose someone said they thought their house was worth 400k and I said I thought that was too high since their neighbor's identical house was listed for 350k but unsold. Would you think it was an intelligent observation to point out that "asking prices are irrelevant"?

I don't see a 2BR SMV going for over $2K but I might be wrong. My guess is more like $1,500 - $1,750 unless you have week 52.

SMV is a little unusual in that the 2br is actually 2 separate 1 bedrooms units, one larger than the other. I think the highest rental value for SMV is as 2 separate 1 bedrooms. [Out of compliance Info. removed.-DeniseM Moderator] So I think the OP's estimated rental value for an average week is too high.

There seem to be a lot of SMV weeks available.

Not sure what you meant by this. On Redweek there are only 3 different weeks available in 2009 (Weeks 1, 7 and 11) The lowest priced 1br I][Out of compliance Info. removed.-DeniseM Moderator] [/I]S is asking 1100. The lowest price 2br is asking 2250.

 

[RLG]

Why is air conditioning relevant for a winter ski week?

I was not aware that SMV had no air conditioning.

Alot of the resorts in the mountains lack air conditioning.

Air conditioning in the mountains isn't at all necessary.

I'm curious.

Why is it relevant whether the resort has air conditioning in evaluating a winter SKI week?

I'm pretty confident air conditioning would not be required in February.

 

[grgs]

I'm curious.

Why is it relevant whether the resort has air conditioning in evaluating a winter SKI week?

I'm pretty confident air conditioning would not be required in February.

Yes, but many people vacation in Colorado in the summer.

Glorian

 

[rickandcindy23]

Reserve wasn't met. Watch for it again very soon.

 

[thinze3]

Asking prices are very relevant if you're trying to point out that someone's estimate of market is too HIGH. The fact that the ASKING price of my UNRENTED unit is lower than the OP's estimated rental value is pretty clear evidence that his estimated value is too high....

Not sure what you meant by this. On Redweek there are only 3 different weeks available in 2009 (Weeks 1, 7 and 11) The lowest priced 1br (mine) is asking 1100. The lowest price 2br is asking 2250.

RLG, I still don't think you get the purpose of my posts about the Redweek rental asking prices.

Let's assume both Resort A and Resort B are of similar quality and have similar annual MF's. Let's also assume that both resorts have a similar and fair number of rental units listed on websites like Redweek. If the average ASKING price of Resort A is $2500 during its prime season, and the average ASKING price of resort B during its prime season is $1250, that does give one some sense of worth for comparison purposes of the two timeshares (or at least it does me).

If the annual MF's are equal to the asking price of the rental units and there are plenty of rental units available, then the resort is virtually valueless. If the annual MF's are less than half the average asking price of the rental units and there are plenty of rental units available, then the resort probably has much more value. (Of course tradability, points systems and other variables also come into play.) IMHO

This was a very simple comparison tests that you seem to have taken way out of context.


Terry

 

[thinze3]

Reserve wasn't met. Watch for it again very soon.

I stopped at $3,005.

Terry

 

[sml2181]

Regarding rental prices...

I have rented 2 of my 09 SMV weeks and received more than the 2400$ mentioned by the op. Rentals came through in May and September and I do think that ski rentals seem to be hurting...just checked some rental websites. I also think that the good weeks are still in demand.

A month ago (I think, maybe 5 weeks or so) I checked spg.com and I noticed that weeks 51, 52 and 7 (only weeks of interest to me) were available for a cash rack rate of 400$ per night, per 1 bedroom unit. If one would use the 50% off (using spg points) - it would not be interesting enough to rent from a private party. Obviously, that's just my opinion.
At the same time, Westin Riverfront studio units were available for 199$ per night. And we are using cash and points to stay at the St Regis Aspen during week 52, which I think is pretty rare during that specific week.
Just saying that it really may be the tough times making it harder to rent out your ski weeks.

Having said that - I forgot to delete my craigslist add SMV week 52 and I did receive multiple offers, all over 3500$. Of course I don't know if these rentals would have come through in the end - I chose to use II instead.

To me the SMV weeks are a great deal - I bought 1 for under 10K, 1 for 12K but paid more for fixed weeks. I had them requalified and I am a very happy owner (although I haven't actually stayed there yet - always end up going to the Valdoro in Breck.....or the St Regis in Aspen ).

 

[Robert D]

Asking prices are very relevant if you're trying to point out that someone's estimate of market is too HIGH. The fact that the ASKING price of my UNRENTED unit is lower than the OP's estimated rental value is pretty clear evidence that his estimated value is too high. Suppose someone said they thought their house was worth 400k and I said I thought that was too high since their neighbor's identical house was listed for 350k but unsold. Would you think it was an intelligent observation to point out that "asking prices are irrelevant"?

The reason many asking prices are irrelevant is just what you described - was the $400K relevant? or even the $350K? Now if you had said that the closing price was $350 that's a different issue. My experience is that most asking prices for TS's both for sale and rent are very inflated, especially on sites like Redweek.

Quote:
SMV is a little unusual in that the 2br is actually 2 separate 1 bedrooms units, one larger than the other. I think the highest rental value for SMV is as 2 separate 1 bedrooms. I'm currently asking 1200 for a large 1br and 1100 for a small 1br for Presidents Day week. Interestingly I have week 52 available and am only asking 1300. So I think the OP's estimated rental value for an average week is too high.

Your point is well taken about getting more $'s by renting the units as two 1BR's instead of a 2BR. Seems like there would be more than $100 difference between the large and small 1BR since the large one is a lot bigger from what I understand. It seems like even the small 1BR would be worth $1K for a prime ski week.

Quote:
Not sure what you meant by this. On Redweek there are only 3 different weeks available in 2009 (Weeks 1, 7 and 11) The lowest priced 1br (mine) is asking 1100. The lowest price 2br is asking 2250.

There 26 weeks SMV weeks for rent on Vacation Timeshare Rentals (http://www.vacationtimesharerentals.com/United-States/Timeshares/Colorado/Avon/Sheraton's-Mountain-Vista/index.asp?RentalSort=Week&Sort=ASC#rentals) including several week 51/52. There also always seem to be quite a few SMV week available for exchange on II.

I'm not sure how to do this quote thing so the format is not the best but I tried to reply to each item above.