[2008] Southcape Resort

[NEVMSLLC]

OK, tombo, simple answers to those I can answer.

Do I expect Festiva to act differently? Yes, I do.

The agreement with Festiva is confidential.

Outfield is not my marketing company, I have no interest in Outfield whatsoever.

The NEVS weeks are not being sold as Festiva points weeks. Care to buy one?

Our marketing efforts are not to convert weeks to Festiva. That is only an option. Our efforts are to sell the weeks, period. I frankly don't care if they join Festiva or not.

Again, I repeat, NEVS weeks are not being sold exclusively to Festiva or only to points owners. The points program doesn't make sense for every timeshare owner. Why would I limit my market to a product that only works for people who vacation in a way that makes points valuable for them and ignore the rest of the market??? Your statement that Festiva is getting ALL of the weeks is simply untrue and I've said it now in three different posts. If you don't believe me, just say so and let's move on. by the way, you don't have to believe me, you can check the registry of deeds yourself.

Tombo, if you haven't been following the discussion, the point has been repeatedly made that we are the board at Southcape. Would you have me assign my votes to myself?

Again, I won't speak to the contract with Festiva as it is confidential other than to say that our contract appears to be different than others. I am not at all concerned about a "Festiva takeover".

Since you are not an owner at Southcape, can I assume that you own at another Festiva affiliated resort? Or are you just repeating things you've heard others say? I know people who had a very bad experience with my car dealer and yet, they've always treated me honestly and professionally and I will do business with them again. The previous comment about the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior is based on the false assumption that no one can ever change. If that were true, what would even be the point in trying to change since you would be having a conclusion that change is impossible.

Sorry, but I was a philosophy major in college with a concentration in mathematical logic and your kind of arguments just make me insane because they simply don't make any sense and in many cases are just plain untrue. If you have actual facts and wish me to comment on them, I'm happy to do that but I won't continue to comment on rumors, untruths and outrageous conclusions that have no basis in fact.

 

[tombo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but mx fees are normally NOT paid by anyone, on developer's unsold units.

Suppose I was a developer, and conceived and recently constructed a resort. I would be anxious to get the units sold quickly, so that I could recoup my investment. I would also be anxious to move the resort into its' "life" phase of being occupied and operational. Suppose I had 5000 unit-weeks to sell, had just gotten started with only the first 1% (50 units) sold. Would it make sense for me, as developer, to pay myself maintenance fees on the other 4950 units?

MF's aren't payed to the developer. MF's pay the housekeeping, the electricity, the insurance,the taxes etc. Someone has to pay it or the power would be shut off, the insurance cancelled etc. The costs of operating the resort are shared by all owners paying their MF's. If a developer builds or buys a resort that has 10,000 units with costs requiring $600 per year for each of the 10,000 units and they have only sold 1,000, would you really expect the 1000 owners to pay $6000 each annually in MF's? No because no one would ever buy a week at that resort. Developers typically charge the owners a reasonable annual MF until they have sold enough weeks for the owners to cover expenses, and the developers pay the difference between what the owners pay and what the expenses actually are. Developers have a lot of incentive to sell weeks to both recoup their investment and to reduce the amount of money they must expend each year to keep the resort operating. Once they sell enough weeks so that the owners can afford to operate the resort, they stop paying operating expenses on their remaining inventory. Usually this is the point at which the developer turns control of the resort over to the HOA.

When the resort's HOA owns the inventory then of course they don't pay MF's for inventory they own. In many instances the developers do pay for inventory they own. Festiva pays for weeks they own and assessments for weeks they own. They are both owner, sales, and developer in some instances. Cliff is correct that not all developers pay those expenses, but the point I was making is that some do. When the developer Marriott buys a week back using ROFR, they will pay all associated MF's and assessments on that week and any other week they own until it is sold.

 

[ecwinch]

I must confess to not understanding the concern about developer rights. Those rights have always been in force at the resort since the 1970s.

Because those developer rights allow you to effectively control the resort in an unlimited fashion with little regard to the rights of owners. If you decide tomorrow that you want to upgrade every unit with 42 plasma TV's, and designer kitchens - you could do it. And the owners would have to pay for those improvements, not NEVS. That would obviously greatly enhance the sales price of the NEVS units, just as the current assessment is going to do on a smaller scale.

Likewise, if you decided that the managing entity (that you also control), should be receiving a much higher management fee, you can do so.

Normally build-out clauses would transfer resort control to the owners once the resort is complete. However since those clauses are unlikely to ever be met, your control could be indefinite.

I agree that NEVS not paying maintenance fees should be disconcerting. My question is why is it disconcerting to you now when that's the way it's been for thirty years?

The funds will be used to make necessary repairs regardless of who owns in a particular unit.

Are you suggesting that owners should ignore this imbalance because it has occurred for thirty years?

In total, I think you have purchased control of a resort that has outdated by-laws that most owners or prospective buyers would find unconscionable. When combined with the weak protections of the Mass Timeshare Act, you effectively have control of the pocketbooks of the respective owners and have a level of control that is hard to fathom.

Is essence, you have people paying to directly improve your property. The phase "unjust enrichment" does come mind.

All things being equal, would you purchase a timeshare in this resort given that situation?

 

[ecwinch]

"Where an exempt organization engages in a transaction with an
insider and there is a purpose to benefit the insider rather than
the organization, inurement occurs even though the transaction
ultimately proves profitable for the exempt organization. The test
is not ultimate profit or loss but whether, at every stage of the
transaction, those controlling the organization guarded its
interests and dealt with related parties at arm's-length. See Leon
A. Beeghly Fund v. Commissioner, 35 T.C. 490 (1960). (Inurement
occurred when organization entered a transaction to benefit the
stockholders of a particular business corporation, not to benefit
the charity, even though corporation suffered no financial loss.)"

This is partially addressed in Article IX of the by-laws at SC, as long as deceit or fraud is not involved. See the section titled "Interest Not To Disqualify" on page 27.

Basically states that insider transactions are allowed.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Hi wmauryd

Had to laugh when i read your post. I was actually going to take a break and pay some bills but felt I should respond to this right away.

I couldn't have said it better myself. what typically happens is that when a few weeks are left in a developer's inventory, they "dump" those weeks to get someone to pay a maintenance fee and then move on. Now the resort is in good shape financially and the owners are running the show.

Over time, more and more owners stop paying maintenance fees and the board has to continue to raise them to keep up with expenses. The board is made up of owners who have no industry background and no way to sell the weeks of delinquent owners to bring in new maintenance fees and the problem gets worse from there. I've worked with over 30 resorts in New England where this is exactly what's happened.

Now look at Southcape. The developer didn't sell the remaining weeks and didn't have to pay maintenance fees. They've kept control of the resort for over 20 years. They also didn't do much about delinquent owners and certainly had no way of replacing them since they weren't even selling their own inventory. Southcape had both problems - unsold developer inventory and increasing delinquent inventory.

Now, NEVS comes in to sell the developer inventory, hire a collection company to collect back maintenance fees, set up a sales program to sell NEVS weeks and delinquent weeks and to eventually help owners who want to sell move their weeks and all of this is bad for the resort? On the contrary, it's the best thing that could happen to Southcape and it should have been done 20 years ago. Why do you think I've been trying to buy that inventory for 15 years. I know what happens and I want to prevent that from happening to a resort I personally care a lot about.

The "parting of the ways" will certainly happen in less than 20 years. i can promise you that NEVS did not purchase the inventory to hold on to it and say, gee look at all of our inventory! NEVS bought the inventory to sell it. That's how NEVS makes money. The owners, in their own best interests, should do everything they possibly can to help NEVS sell that inventory, bring in new owners and generate new maintenance fees and help NEVS to create a healthy resort. Whether they will or not remains to be seen, but I'm an eternal optimist and I think the vast majority of owners will help.

By the way, I've heard from a lot of owners and almost all of them are saying it's about time the resort was renovated, the inventory sold and to do something about the delinquent owners. I prefer to believe that those that aren't saying that just do not understand what's really going on and that's why I've agreed to participate in this discussion and why I spend a huge amount of time communicating with owners. If I didn't care, why would I do that? I can assure you it's not always pleasant!

How are Festiva and Outfield beneficial to the resort? Festiva is simple. I think owners should have as many vacation options as possible and that includes access to a points based system. Festiva has, in my opinion, one of the best points based systems there is. southcape owners will have the option of II, RCI and Festiva and anyone else I can get in there that gives our owners the best options in the industry. No one has to do anything but I do think they should have the option.

Outfield is a bit different. A resort that has no ability to sell left over developer inventory, association owned inventory, delinquent inventory and owner resale inventory is a resort that ultimately will fail. You don't like it and I don't like it but sales and marketing are critical to having an ongoing successful resort. I've been involved in consulting for resorts that had to close and it ain't pretty. I've worked with Outfield for eight years at many other resorts and I think Outfield is about the best and most professional sales organization in the timeshare industry. Before anyone asks, I am not an owner of Outfield and I have no interest in Outfield at all.

I'll say one other thing about Outfield. You cannot have a sales organization in any industry without having problems created by salespeople. Salespeople sell. That's their job. Occasionally, salespeople go too far, in every industry. It's not about whether or not salespeople make mistakes, it's about what the company does to rectify those mistakes when they occur that's really important. whenever I have reported a problem with a sales rep to Outfield, they have done one of two things - either fired the rep or brought them in for additional training and education. The truth is, I'm simply not hearing complaints about Outfield from Southcape owners. If I did, I would act on it and so would Outfield.

Since the life blood of any resort is sales, I thought (and still think) that the best thing for Southcape Resort is to work with the best sales organization out there. For my money (oh, yeah, it is my money!) that company is Outfield Marketing.

I'd be happy to get paid as a trustee!! I just don't think it's a good idea and that board members should not be paid. I think they should be board members because they care enough about the resort to volunteer their time and expertise for the benefit of the owners and yes, I mean all of the owners.

NEVS will make money when they sell their inventory.

I'm the General Partner of the management company and that's how I make my money. If I do a good job, the owners will want to keep me. If I do a lousy job, they should throw me out. Guess which way I'd prefer! I have a vested financial interest and incentive to do the best management job possible for the resort and the owners or I'm going to have to find another way to make a living. I actually like what I do and I enjoy talking with the owners (mostly . . . ). For almost twenty years I've had a vision of what Southcape could be and now I have a chance to make it a reality. There is a plan to make that happen and I'll get into that in more detail at another time. My fingers are getting sore from typing!

Finally, I don't get paid by Southcape, I don't get paid by Festiva and I don't get paid by Outfield. I will get paid by NEVS if I can help them successfully sell their weeks (so, yes, I want them to sell their weeks!) and I get paid by the management company. That's it. It means absolutely nothing to me if owners join Festiva or not.

Finally, I know Festiva had problems in the past. Just to set the record straight, so did Marriott, Disney, Hilton, Embassy, II, RCI and a bunch of others. Are you still getting the kind of exchanges through RCI that you used to get? I don't really care what happened in the past because none of us can change it. Believe it or not, even I wasn't always perfect! What I care about is what are you doing today and what are you going to do tomorrow. That's what's really important, isn't it?

 

[ecwinch]

Can you still possibly believe that NEVS is not acting in the best interests of the resort as a whole?

Cliff,

I have read your posts, and you seem like a reasonable fellow. In my mind, what this comes down to is respecting owner rights. Maybe you will do this, maybe you wont. Time will tell. With a few minor exceptions, I do not disagree with most of what you have said. However, If you really have the best interests of resort in mind, then:

1) Hold Board elections, and cast your votes in proportion to those of the general owner population. You still would have the right to appoint one director as the developer.

2) Offer to offset any short-falls in the rental income from the assigned units vs the special assessment that would be due on those weeks.

While no one likes special assessments. I think we all recognize they are needed from time to time. This one is unequitable since the owners are paying to improve NEVS's property.

 

[e.bram]

I don't see anybody including NVES selling off season(any week except 25 thru 34)Cape Cod weeks. You can't even give them away. This whole thread is "chopping water". The best outcome is to turn Southcape into whole ownership and pay off all the owners the the sale.

 

[tombo]

OK, tombo, simple answers to those I can answer.

Do I expect Festiva to act differently? Yes, I do. .

Why? They have not acted differently at any other resort. You refuse to specifically name any written safeguards that would make them act differently. Please google Festiva and see how many sites and posts come up with negative threads from owners about Festiva. They have been sued 2 times in the last 4 or 5 years, once by the Missouri Att General (which they settled) and currently by the owners at The Atrium.

The agreement with Festiva is confidential.

That always will sound like a simple way to avoid answering questions. Anything you don't feel like answering could be answered in this manner IMO.

Outfield is not my marketing company, I have no interest in Outfield whatsoever..

Who hired Outfield? You? The board. Of course if the board hired them you are the board, so same thing. If you hred them, then you tell them what to sell and for what price. You are their employer and as such you do have an interest in what Outfield does.

The NEVS weeks are not being sold as Festiva points weeks. Care to buy one?.

The only offers from Outfield to buy that any owner has posted here is to swap their week for membership in the Festiva Adventure Club. Please find one owner's post describing any sales offer from Outfield other than the offer to become an FAC member. As far as me being an interested buyer,I do not want to buy a week at any resort that Festiva is becoming a part of.

Our marketing efforts are not to convert weeks to Festiva. That is only an option. Our efforts are to sell the weeks, period. I frankly don't care if they join Festiva or not..

This is a great forum and time to explain other sales options at Southscape other than FAC. Please post other purchase options here for those who are interested. The marketing pitch used by Outfield is a Festiva pitch exclusivelly from what has been posted here and other places. This thread describes what I have repeatedly read and it is totally a Festiva sales pitch: http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html

Again, I repeat, NEVS weeks are not being sold exclusively to Festiva or only to points owners. The points program doesn't make sense for every timeshare owner.

Just to clarify, NEVS is in charge of selling weeks at other resorts than Southscape. The simple question here is NEVS or outfield marketing Southscape weeks in a manner other than offering them as FAC points memberships? That is all anyone here has been approached about.

Tombo, if you haven't been following the discussion, the point has been repeatedly made that we are the board at Southcape. Would you have me assign my votes to myself? .

I think having a developer on any board is a very bad thing for a resort. Having a board with the majority of board members aligned with the devloper is something I really feel should be illegal. The conflict of interest potential is too great. If you assigned the votes to the board and for some reason you were not a board member anymore, the votes would remain with the board, so not a bad thing for the resort in the long run.

Again, I won't speak to the contract with Festiva as it is confidential other than to say that our contract appears to be different than others. I am not at all concerned about a "Festiva takeover". .

Why couldn't you say that we have protected the owners and this resort by implementing the following safeguards. Saying I can't legally discuss any details means to me that the details are not something the existing or potential owners would be happy about. If I was selling weeks at Southscape, both NEVS and Festiva would be as transparent as possible regarding the situation to calm fears and make people more comfortable with owning at Southscape. Festiva has bad reviews all over the web making anyone who researches Festiva worry about their future at this resort. Response like I can't discuss the deails because of legal reasons makes it appear that there is something to hide and does nothing to calm fears.

Since you are not an owner at Southcape, can I assume that you own at another Festiva affiliated resort? .

Yes I own at anothe resort Festiva has taken control of. If I didn't own at a Festiva resort I wouldn't know or care what their potential association with Southscape is. My resort without warning was taken over by Festiva. One of the Festiva CEO's tired of people asking questions at the annual meeting last year stood and said that Festiva owned the controlling votes in phase 2 and could do whatever they want to do at our resort. He said they also control 3 out of 5 board spots. He said if you don't like it we will allow you to deed your weeks to us and you can leave. This is why I fell so strongly about Festiva gaining control of the votes. This is why I don't beleive that they will act any differently at Southscape or anywhere else unless legally bound to act differently. I love my resort, but not the direction it is headed thanks to Festiva. They increase MF's and assess to the point that your resort is not worth owning anymore. I am here to warn Southscape owners before it is too late at their resort like it is already too late at mine.


The following 2 previously asked simple questions have simple answers you have failed to give. I assume we know the answers already, and the answers are that nothing is in place to prevent Festiva from taking control of Southscape or exercising their votes on weeks they acquire at Southscape.

Here are the 2 questions again if you want to take a shot at them:

1.Did Festiva sign an agreement stating that they will not receive any voting rights associated with the weeks they get deeded at Southscape?


2. Were there terms negotiated with Festiva to prevent them from ever being able to manage or take over Southscape?

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Sorry tombo

Most all contracts are private and confidential. Even if they weren't, I certainly would not post the contents of any contract in a public forum. Even if they were discoverable by Southcape owners only, you are not a Southcape owner and I still could not publish them in a public forum.

My answers to you seem to mean little to you and that's fine with me, i don't represent you at all. It seems clear that your problems are with Festiva and, again, that's fine with me, but perhaps you would be better off taking your concerns to a Festiva board. I'm sure everyone can see that you've made your point, erroneous as it might be and I have confidence that Southcape owners can decide for themselves between your posts and mine.

I said right in the beginning that I would not answer questions of a legal nature because I'm not an attorney and I'm certainly not about to let you goad me into doing exactly that.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with Festiva. But to take that experience and postulate that now everyone will have a problem with Festiva is just too silly to continue to comment on.

Cliff

 

[NEVMSLLC]

If you all don't mind, I'm going to take a break to watch some March Madness. My girlfriend has Louisville winning today and I actually have Michigan State. If I lose, I have to cook dinner for a month . . .

I think I'd rather face a public forum of Southcape owners . . .

Go Michigan!!!

Cliff

 

[tombo]

Sorry tombo

Most all contracts are private and confidential. Even if they weren't, I certainly would not post the contents of any contract in a public forum. Even if they were discoverable by Southcape owners only, you are not a Southcape owner and I still could not publish them in a public forum.

My answers to you seem to mean little to you and that's fine with me, i don't represent you at all. It seems clear that your problems are with Festiva and, again, that's fine with me, but perhaps you would be better off taking your concerns to a Festiva board. I'm sure everyone can see that you've made your point, erroneous as it might be and I have confidence that Southcape owners can decide for themselves between your posts and mine.

I said right in the beginning that I would not answer questions of a legal nature because I'm not an attorney and I'm certainly not about to let you goad me into doing exactly that.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with Festiva. But to take that experience and postulate that now everyone will have a problem with Festiva is just too silly to continue to comment on.

Cliff

Festiva allegedly raised MF's 60% in the first 3 years they gained control of The Church Street Inn. Festiva allegedly raised MF's 10% and charged an assessment 2 times the annual MF's the first year they were owners of the Atrium. Festiva reportedly went to court to try to negate a contract at the Atrium which limited the amount that annual fees could be increased each year. Some of the owners at the Atrium are suing Festiva over not honoring the contracts they signed when they purchased their weeks prior to Festiva's arrival. Several Peppertree owners have posts with problems at their resorts since Festiva took over. It is a lot easier to find 20 negative Festiva posts on the web than to find one positive post. Just google and see for yourself.

Festiva took over my resort last year by buying enough inventory to own the majority vote. Festiva now controls the board, the clubhouse and common areas, the vote, they are the management company at my resort, and they are starting to renovate all the units at owners expense to put in granite counter tops, flat screen TV's, etc with no owner vote or input. The assessment letters supposedly are coming soon. Everything other owners said happened to them when Festiva took over at their resorts is starting to happen at my resort now. From what I know of Festiva's actions at other resorts and from what I have seen at my resort, one could easily postulate that most everyone will have problems with Festiva once they gain control of the vote.


I appreciate your answers and have read each and every one.Any contract can be made public if both parties agree to it. If there is nothing to hide it would be a simple thing to do providing that the contract doesn't contain things that one or both parties would not like to become public. My recent posts asked a few simple questions that were dodged and ignored two different times. Your position is that Southscape owners should just trust NEVS, Outfield, and Festiva to do what is in the best interest of the owners with no actual written confirmation that they will be protected. The owners should believe that what Festiva did at other resorts will not happen at Southscape without any confirmation that there are any legal restrictions placed on them preventing them from controlling the vote or the resort, and nothing in place that anyone can see preventing them from becoming the mgt company at Southscape in the future. My position is that having Festiva acquiring votes at a resort where you are an owner will probably lead to assessments and increased MF's with no say in the control of your resort in the future. I assume like you said that the owners can decide for themselves between our posts.

 

[Sou13]

Reply to concern about developer rights

I can't begin to go back to the questions addressed to me because so many concerns have been raised since then. What I can do is go back to what happened subsequent to my meeting with the on-site sales rep Greg Hughes (508-477-4700x132):

My first question emailed to rcassidy@southcaperesort.com has never to my knowledge been answered:

I have been contacted by Outfield Marketing and find this situation disturbing. How can Southcape Resort continue to prey on owners for the upkeep and improvement while Outfield Marketing is preying on them for thousands of dollars for Festiva Resorts "points"? Who gets the money and how does this help alleviate the shortfall at Southcape?

The reason Cliff Hagberg knows who I am could be that I myself included the link to a TUG discussion in one of my emails to Rosaleen Cassidy. That's why I had to hide behind the fake TUG user ID and hope I could continue to post info here without fear of reprisal.

When I posted the reply to my email and even included the link to the Master Deed in my signature, how could he not have put two and two together? Did he post that he majored in math? Or whatever, my head is spinning and I have to get on to my next set of problems.

So, now that my true identity, up to now known only by the staff at Southcape and one other TUG memeber, can be acknowledged, can I get answers to my questions? That was only the first!

To reply to my concern about developer rights, I must ask, what's in it for the developer? Why would a developer want to put out $1.5 million for that right? Especially in today's timeshare market with which the developer is so intimately familiar!

For my money, I hope Michigan State wins (or won) so that we can get more answers here!

 

[ecwinch]

Tombo,

Just my opinion - but this thread is getting hard to read with all the cross traffic about Festiva, and what has happened at your resort. There definitely is some applicability to SC, but interested parties can read about that in the Festiva thread. I think we empathize with you and what has happened.

Festiva does not manage SC. NEVS does.

They may at some future date be in control. But that is not today. I am more interested in what is going at SC today. And given the current by-laws at SC, Festiva might be the least of those concerns.

 

[Sou13]

You gotta be kidding!

Tombo,

Just my opinion - but this thread is getting hard to read with all the cross traffic about Festiva, and what has happened at your resort. There definitely is some applicability to SC, but interested parties can read about that in the Festiva thread. I think we empathize with you and what has happened.

Festiva does not manage SC. NEVS does.

They may at some future date be in control. But that is not today. I am more interested in what is going at SC today. And given the current by-laws at SC, Festiva might be the least of those concerns.

Eric, I've thanked you more than once for your interest in the affairs of Southcape Resort now that NEVS has invited the Trojan Horse in, and you want to kick tombo off this forum? You even tried kicking me off the discussion I started in the "Points System Discussions" forum!

If you are truly interested in buying a week at Southcape, why would you be now that there are two principals of Outfield Marketing on the Board of Trustees?

 

[tombo]

Tombo,

Just my opinion - but this thread is getting hard to read with all the cross traffic about Festiva, and what has happened at your resort. There definitely is some applicability to SC, but interested parties can read about that in the Festiva thread. I think we empathize with you and what has happened.

Festiva does not manage SC. NEVS does.

They may at some future date be in control. But that is not today. I am more interested in what is going at SC today. And given the current by-laws at SC, Festiva might be the least of those concerns.

What is going on today is the sale of 500 weeks. Although it is sort of being denied, the 500 weeks that NEVS owns is being sold (predominatelly if not totally) as FAC memberships. If those sales continue Festiva will eventually control the vote and the resort. NEVS is giving control of Southscape to Festiva by selling Festiva points. If enough owners raise he** here they might get NEVS to sell something different like Bluegreen points? Since NEVS chose to sell Festiva memberships, perhaps they could choose to sell something else that would benefit NEVS and the owners.The direction the resort is currently headed should be obvious. If you put your head in the sand and say it isn't Festiva controlled resort yet, then Southscape will simply become a Festiva resort, and that is a bad thing IMO.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

tombo

It's not sort of being denied, I've tried to tell you straight out. It ain't true. NEVS is not selling the weeks to Festiva nor is NEVS selling them only as Festiva points. You want to buy a week straight up, they'd love to sell one to you. What don't you get????

Cliff

 

[tombo]

tombo

It's not sort of being denied, I've tried to tell you straight out. It ain't true. NEVS is not selling the weeks to Festiva nor is NEVS selling them only as Festiva points. You want to buy a week straight up, they'd love to sell one to you. What don't you get????

Cliff

OK. So NEVS is not selling weeks to Festiva and NEVS will sell weeks to people as FAC memberships and in other packages.

Outfield marketing who was hired by NEVS to sell weeks at Southscape is selling Festiva Points and no one who has been approached by Outfield has been pitched on anything but Festiva Points. Outfield is trying to convince all owners at Southscape that they must convert to Festiva Points or their weeks will be worthless. NEVS might be offering weeks in other packages than just FAC, but the main marketing program at Southscape appears to be Outfield. Outfield sells Festiva and nothing else according to everyone on this thread who has had contact with Outfield.

Would any interested potential buyer or current owner at Southscape who has been contacted by NEVS or Outfield to buy anything at Southscape other than Festiva Points please post a response. There have been numerous posts from people who have received the Festiva pitch, let's see if anyone here has received any other kind of sales pitch.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

tombo

I'm done communicating with you. If you were to visit Southcape resort, you would be offered a week to buy. You would also be offered the opportunity to join II or RCI or Festiva. whether you did or not would be up to you after we explained the advantages and disadvantages of each. I know because I'm there every day, you are not. I'm sorry, but I can no longer deal with your paranoid fantasies. I feel badly that you've allowed one bad experience to completely poison your mind. I really do believe you (and we) would be better off if you took your paranoid rantings about Festiva elsewhere. Keep in mind, this board is (I believe) for Southcape owners to get answers to questions they have and not for owners at other resorts to complain about their problems.

Cliff

 

[wmauryd]

March madness

Cliff,

Hey Michigan came through so congratulations!

 

[ecwinch]

Eric, I've thanked you more than once for your interest in the affairs of Southcape Resort now that NEVS has invited the Trojan Horse in, and you want to kick tombo off this forum? You even tried kicking me off the discussion I started in the "Points System Discussions" forum!

If you are truly interested in buying a week at Southcape, why would you be now that there are two principals of Outfield Marketing on the Board of Trustees?

I am just suggesting we keep the respective threads on topic. We have a Festiva thread over in the points forum, and a Southcape one here. But in the Festiva thread we have posts asking FestivaRep about the board at Southcape, and how NEVS obtained control of the resort. And over here we have posts asking NEVMSLLC about Festiva's activities at other resorts. Does it not make sense to keep the respective threads on topic?

As with most threads, the same core group of people are providing the majority of the posts. I think it just confusing with all the cross-posts.

I am not trying to "kick" anyone off the thread. Just trying to keep the posts on topic.

 

[wmauryd]

turn Southcape into whole ownership

The best outcome is to turn Southcape into whole ownership and pay off all the owners the the sale.

E. Bram:

Re "The best outcome is to turn Southcape into whole ownership and pay off all the owners the the sale" -- Are you suggesting the resort have a single owner and no longer be a timeshare?

 

[e.bram]

Each unit wholly owned.
Yes not a TS

 

[tombo]

tombo

I'm done communicating with you. If you were to visit Southcape resort, you would be offered a week to buy. You would also be offered the opportunity to join II or RCI or Festiva. whether you did or not would be up to you after we explained the advantages and disadvantages of each. I know because I'm there every day, you are not. I'm sorry, but I can no longer deal with your paranoid fantasies. I feel badly that you've allowed one bad experience to completely poison your mind. I really do believe you (and we) would be better off if you took your paranoid rantings about Festiva elsewhere. Keep in mind, this board is (I believe) for Southcape owners to get answers to questions they have and not for owners at other resorts to complain about their problems.

Cliff

Cliff,I remember you saying that you wouldn't deal with personal attacks when you joined the discussions. I feel the same way, and having you call me paranoid is unacceptable and unprofessional. Paranoid is delusional, irrational behavior. Rather than operating irrationally I have assimilated FACTS from previous events at mine and other resorts, and compared them to current situations at Southscape, to predict a probable future outcome. The probable outcome IMO is that Festiva will take over Southscape. Refuting my facts and theories with your own and answering a couple of simple questions would have been a good way to rebutte my posts. Calling me names, refusing to answer those questions, and asking me to leave this thread is admitting that what I posted is correct IMO. See how I posted a rational response to your emotional, derogatory post.

Outfield has been marketing festiva to Equivest owners in Branson since at least December of 2007. http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...e_Vac_Club_Any_feedback-Branson_Missouri.html
How could anyone beleive that Outfield Marketing has nothing to do with Festiva after reading these posts? They were marketing Festiva before NEVS started selling weeks at Southscape.

You Have nothing to do with festiva or outfield according to your posts. You are one of 3 trustees from your own words: "The trustees are Clifford Hagberg, Steven Lamantia and Thomas C. Franks and we can all be reached in care of the resort." Steve Lamantia has been marketing Festiva points with Outfield since at least February of 2008. http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html
Lamantia is a trustee, works for Outfield, and posters actually beleived he was a Festiva rep after he left their home, but you have nothing to do with Festiva or Outfield. Someone appointed him a trustee. You are one of three trustees, Lamantia from Outfield completes 2/3's of the total trustees, but everyone should believe that you have nothing to do with Outfield or Festiva. I am curious who the third trustee (Thomas C Franks) holds allegiance to. The trustees are currently composed of one NEVS, one Outfield, and one player whose team has yet to be named. Could the third trustee be associated with Festiva (a possibility which is purely conjecture)?

You are trying to sell your 500 weeks, and you are the one who chose to affiliate Southscape with Festiva. I am trying to help prevent the owners at Southscape from becoming owners at a Festiva controlled resort. You have financial incentives to put a positive spin on everything. I am simply telling people what I feel the situation is with nothing in it dollarwise for me. In fact it might be costing me money warning everyone about the problems with Festiva because it is probably reducing the value of the weeks I own at a Festiva resort. Should Southscape owners trust the NEVS timeshare salesman's posts, or the timeshare owner's posts? As you said the Southscape owners can decide for themselves.

I know you say that I should stick to the Festiva board since you feel that my comments should be there. Maybe the Southscape forum should be moved to the Festiva points thread since Festiva already has it listed as their newest vacation destination. http://www.festivaresorts.com/southcape.php

I have no problem not communicating any further with you. I have said all I need to say.

Tom

 

[Sou13]

Are you a bylaws expert?

Tombo,

Just my opinion - but this thread is getting hard to read with all the cross traffic about Festiva, and what has happened at your resort. There definitely is some applicability to SC, but interested parties can read about that in the Festiva thread. I think we empathize with you and what has happened.

Festiva does not manage SC. NEVS does.

They may at some future date be in control. But that is not today. I am more interested in what is going at SC today. And given the current by-laws at SC, Festiva might be the least of those concerns.

Eric, are you a bylaws expert? What is it in the bylaws that is of most concern to you?

I, too, am concerned about them, and suspect that there are amendments on file somewhere that I don't have the knowhow to access.

I also don't believe that Cliff Hagberg is a legal expert but do believe that he's in this for business not personal reasons.

The "girlfriend" is one example. On the Sandcastle thread one owner tried to reassure the concerned owners that Cliff Hagberg had said that Sandcastle is his "wife's" favorite timeshare or something to that effect.

For more on the situation at Sandcastle, go to [merged] Sandcastle Shift to "Festiva" Points

I read all the Festiva discussions before joining TUG and posting to this one. That's how I learned about a similar situation going on simultaneously at Sandcastle. Someone there tried to tell me to butt out, not understanding that I'm looking out for them and that we have NEVS and NEVMS in common.

So now that my Yahoo! Briefcase files are gone (I thought I had posted the reason but must have failed to "submit"!), I should be able to find more time to cross-reference posts here. It's much easier to post a link to a post in another discussion when you know how to do that.

 

[ecwinch]

Eric, are you a bylaws expert? What is it in the bylaws that is of most concern to you?

I also don't believe that Cliff Hagberg is a legal expert but do believe that he's in this for business not personal reasons.

I once heard that an expert is someone who knows 10,000 sexual positions and has never had sex. Or a drip under pressure. I am not an expert.

I have spent a fair amount of time reading the Master Deed, the timeshare trust agreements, and the by-laws at SC.

Clearly the thing that is scaring me away as a prospective owner is that the resort is still fully in developer control after 20 or 30 years of operation. I think most by-laws are written under the premise that a resort will have a short period of developer control while build out occurs, and control will pass to the owners as the units are sold. And I fully understand why a developer would need the protections afforded to them during the build-out phase.

But here we have a resort where development has stopped, but the developer still is in control of the resort after 20 or 30 years. And that control might never end. That combined with the fact the assessment dollars will be used to improve NEVS property is a major issue for me.

And given Cliff's track record in real estate, I think he is being disingenuous about his understanding of the law. No one works as a real estate developer or holds the position he holds, without a solid understanding of real estate law. I understand the need for a disclaimer, but give us more credit than that.